T5 Task System Observations

[Supplement Four]

I've been looking at the relationship between the T5 task system and T5 characters. Here are a few observations.

Human average characteristics remain at Stat-7, as it as been for most Traveller editions (pg. 70, T5).

Robject has provided several T5 characters for these observations.




Skill-1

The first thing to notice about a T5 character is that each has several Skill-1 skills.

Just how useful are these skills, given the T5 task system?


Stat-7, Skill-1

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 26%
3D - DIFFICULT - 5%

4D+ (FORMIDABLE or harder) - less than 1%


So, Skill-1, for the average person, basically means this: The character is skilled enough to always succeed at Easy tasks but only experienced enough to succeed at Average tasks every one out of four tries.





Except on only the easites of tasks, Skill-1 is not a vast improvement over a Skill-0 default skill.


Stat-7, Skill-0 (Default)

1D - EASY - 58%
2D - AVERAGE - 16%
3D - DIFFICULT - 3%

4D+ (FORMIDABLE or harder) - less than 1%





How useful is it to have Skill-1 in the game?

Since the game is played using the Average, Difficult, and Formidable task difficulties most often, a character having Skill-1 does not benefit a lot from the skill.

The primary benefit a character receives from having Skill-1 is that he is allowed some chance, albeit small, on non-default skills.

Therefore, when a player has a choice, he should pick a non-default skill in which to receive Skill-1 rather than a default skill.

 

[Supplement Four]

The SS Effect

Stat-7, Skill-1

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 26%
3D - DIFFICULT - 5%

4D+ (FORMIDABLE or harder) - less than 1%





Stat-7, Skill-0 (Default)

1D - EASY - 58%
2D - AVERAGE - 16%
3D - DIFFICULT - 3%

4D+ (FORMIDABLE or harder) - less than 1%

Given T5's rule for Spectacular Success, a player can better his character's Skill-1 or Skill-0 chances at success with 4D and harder tasks by finding ways to increase the task difficulty instead of lowering it--on average.

Chance of rolling SS on a Task.

3D - Difficulty - less than 1%
4D - Formidable - 2%
5D - Staggering - 4%

6D - Hopeless - 6%
7D - Impossible - 9%
8D - Beyond Impossible - 13%

9D - Hasty Beyond Impossible - 16%
10D - Double Hasty Beyond Impossible - 20%




Some ways a player can make the task harder in order to improve his odds of success on a task:

Some players may deliberately exploit every possible way to increase the number of dice of difficulty.

• Extra Hasty (in tasks which are not of invariable length) adds two levels of difficulty (p. 134)
• Throwing away your tools to make a task tougher (p. 136)
• Run back to increase your range to a target (avoiding, however, that Range is greater than Size otherwise the target can no longer be considered visible).
• Choose Autofire (+1D) or Snapfire (+2D)

Possibly there are combinations there to add many dice to a difficulty.

 

[Vladika]

A steward with skill 1 can cook breakfast well 100% of the time. With steward 0, 42% of the time it isn't edible? That would make a difference to me at any rate.

 

[Shonner]

So, Skill-1, for the average person, basically means this: The character is skilled enough to always succeed at Easy tasks but only experienced enough to succeed at Average tasks every one out of four tries.

It's a big jump in drop (100% to 26%). But that is the trade-off when using a D6 instead of a -1 DM for your difficulty mechanic.

 

[Supplement Four]

Skill-2

Stat-7, Skill-2

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 83%
3D - DIFFICULT - 10%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 2%

5D+ (STAGGERING or harder) - less than 1%



Average humans with Skill-2 experience are very likely to succeed on Average tasks (success 4 out of 5 attempts) but are extremely unlikely to succeed on any harder task.

Again, players should look to increasing the difficulty of the task in order to increase the character's chance of success using the SF rule.



For example, Joe Average with Stat-7 and Skill-2 has a 2% chance of succeeding on a Formidable (4D) throw. The task is already 5D due to the TIH rule (figured into the chances above).

If Joe simply makes the task Extra Hasty, that will add 2D to the task, making it a 7D throw, giving Joe a 9% chance of throwing SS.

Joe's chance of success grow from 2% to 9%.



If this is a combat task, then Joe can increase his odds even more by using AutoFire, which adds +2D to his difficulty. Now, with the 9D task, his odds have grown from the original 2% to a 16% chance of hitting his target.

 

[Supplement Four]

A steward with skill 1 can cook breakfast well 100% of the time. With steward 0, 42% of the time it isn't edible? That would make a difference to me at any rate.

Agreed.

The % chance I show above, BTW, does include the use of the TIH rule.

The question I pose, though, is how often is an Easy task used in the game? Probably not that often. Therefore, just how beneficial is it to have Skill-1?

The only real benefit I see is that Skill-1 will allow a character a throw on a non-default skill task where as, without the skill, no throw is allowed on tasks that require non-default skills.

 

[thalassogen]

If Joe simply makes the task Extra Hasty, that will add 2D to the task, making it a 7D throw, giving Joe a 9% chance of throwing SS.

Joe's chance of success grow from 2% to 9%.

That's rediculous. I cannot believe that this is the way the rules are intended...

 

[Supplement Four]

Stat-7, Skill-3

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 92%
3D - DIFFICULT - 50%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 3%

5D+ (STAGGERING or harder) - less than 1%



Skill-3, with the average character, makes the character proficient at Easy and Average tasks and gives the character a 50/50 shot at Difficult tasks.

With any task harder than Difficult, the character's odds can be improved by increasing difficulty and taking advatnage of the SS rule.







Stat-7, Skill-4

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 97%
3D - DIFFICULT - 63%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 24%

5D+ (STAGGERING or harder) - less than 1%


The average character at Skill-4 really has little benefit over Skill-3. The chance of success at Easy tasks are exactly the same. The chance of success at Average and Difficult tasks are about the same.

The only real difference is that Skill-4 affords the character some chance at Formidable tasks (1 in 4) where as Skill-3 affords no chance, for all practical purposes.

For both Skill-3 and Skill-4, the chance of success on 5D and harder tasks can be improved by increasing difficulty and using the SS rule.

 

[Supplement Four]

That's rediculous. I cannot believe that this is the way the rules are intended...

I am postive that's not the way the rule is intended. Yet, it is the rule, and Marc refuses to change it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Stat-7, Skill-5

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 100%
3D - DIFFICULT - 74%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 34%
5D - STAGGERING - 10%

6D+ (HOPELESS or harder) - less than 1%


An average character with Skill-5 will succeed at all but the hardest tasks in the game. There is no roll necessary for Easy and Average tasks.

Note that the 6D Hopeless chance of less than 1% success is automatically improved to 9% by the SS rule. Therefore, the chance at Staggering or Hopeless Difficulty is about the same (10% and 9%).

Then, the chance of success increases, due to the SS rule.

8D - Beyond Impossible - 13%
9D - Hasty Beyond Impossible - 16%
10D - Double Hasty Beyond Impossible - 20%





Therefore, Joe Traveller 777777 Computer-5 needs to make a 6D Hopeless task. The TIH rule kicks in to make this a 7D task, giving Joe a less than 1% chance of success. But, that chance is automatically raised to 9% due to the SS rule.

If Joe attempts the task using the Extra Hasty rule (page 134, T5), this will add +2D to difficulty, increasing Joe's odds of making the task to 16%.

Joe Traveller has just increased his chances from 1-in-500 to 1-in-6 by rushing through the task using the Extra Hasty rule.

Note how the resulting task level is actually lowered one-plus levels, where the originally Hopeless task is actually easier than Staggering.

 

[Supplement Four]

Stat-7, Skill-6

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 100%
3D - DIFFICULT - 84%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 44%
5D - STAGGERING - 15%
6D - HOPELESS - 4% (6% due to SS rule)

7D+ (IMPOSSIBLE or harder) - less than 1% (9% due to the SS rule)

(And, due to the SS rule)

8D - Beyond Impossible - 13%
9D - Hasty Beyond Impossible - 16%
10D - Double Hasty Beyond Impossible - 20%







Stat-7, Skill-7

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 100%
3D - DIFFICULT - 91%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 56%
5D - STAGGERING - 22%
6D - HOPELESS - 6%
7D - IMPOSSIBLE - 1% (9% due to the SS rule)

8D+ (BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE or harder) - less than 1% (13% due to the SS rule)

(And, due to the SS rule)

9D - Hasty Beyond Impossible - 16%
10D - Double Hasty Beyond Impossible - 20%





Stat-7, Skill-8

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 100%
3D - DIFFICULT - 95%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 66%
5D - STAGGERING - 31%
6D - HOPELESS - 10%
7D - IMPOSSIBLE - 2% (9% due to the SS rule)

8D+ (BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE or harder) - less than 1% (13% due to the SS rule)

(And, due to the SS rule)

9D - Hasty Beyond Impossible - 16%
10D - Double Hasty Beyond Impossible - 20%





Stat-7, Skill-9

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 100%
3D - DIFFICULT - 98%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 76%
5D - STAGGERING - 40%
6D - HOPELESS - 14%
7D - IMPOSSIBLE - 4% (9% due to the SS rule)

8D+ (BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE or harder) - less than 1% (13% due to the SS rule)


(And, due to the SS rule)

9D - Hasty Beyond Impossible - 16%
10D - Double Hasty Beyond Impossible - 20%






Stat-7, Skill-10

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 100%
3D - DIFFICULT - 99%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 84%
5D - STAGGERING - 50%
6D - HOPELESS - 21%
7D - IMPOSSIBLE - 6% (9% due to the SS rule)
8D - BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE - 1% (13% due to SS rule)

9D+ (HASTY BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE or harder) - less than 1% (16% due to the SS rule)


(And, due to the SS rule)

10D - Double Hasty Beyond Impossible - 20%




Starting somewhere between Skill-5 and Skill-7, there isn't much difference between the skills at the early difficulty levels. The only reason to get a higher skill (at the expense of raising a lower skill) is to gain a better chance at the very hard difficulty levels.

The more skilled a character, the more benefit he will get from increasing difficulty using the Hasty, Extra Hasty, or other rules in order to exploit the SS rule.

 

[Supplement Four]

I've used Rob's sample characters and for several tests (I didn't take the time to write them all out here), and I'm happy to report that the T5 Task system does produce good numbers.

The task system, with the TIH rule, matched with the T5 character generation system, works.

Not surprisingly, a player improves his character most by matching low skill ratings with high stats.

The only problem I see at this point is the rule for Spectacular Success. As you've seen in the earlier posts of this thread, the SS rule, as is, really gums up the works.

 

[Supplement Four]

Rule of Thumb

Here's a Rule of Thumb that T5 Refs and players can use to quickly size up characters.

RULE OF THUMB

Looking at a skill's level will tell you how effective the character will be, in general, on any task. A character will generally be capable at one difficulty level lower than the skill level (minimum at Easy).



For example, a character with Computer-3 will generally be capable at Easy (1D) and Average (2D) tasks, with some middle probability at Difficult (3D) tasks. And, the character will probably not be very effective at Formidable (4D) or harder tasks.

Stat-7, Skill-3

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 92%
3D - DIFFICULT - 50%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 3%

5D+ (STAGGERING or harder) - less than 1%




Looking at the first character in Rob's list, let's match the character's highest stat (INT-C) with his Pilot-3 skill. You can see below that the general rule above holds true.

Stat-C, Skill-3

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 100%
3D - DIFFICULT - 95%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 31%
5D - STAGGERING - 10%
6D - HOPELESS - 2%

7D+ (IMPOSSIBLE or harder) - less than 1%

Note that we gain little at the Easy and Average difficulty levels. Where Jamison's extreme intelligence helps him most is at the harder difficulty levels--those levels starting at his skill rating and beyond (3D+ difficulties).





Looking at the overall character, it's easy to sum him using the rule of thumb.

Sir Alexander Lascelles Jamison, 878CAA, Age 54, Merchant Captain, ret., Army 1st

Animals-1, Army-3, Broker-5, Comms-1, Computer-1, Driver-1, Electronics-4, Engineer-0 (Life Support-1), Explosives-1, Fighting-1 (Blade-1, Slug Throwers-1), Gunner-1 (Turrets-2), Heavy Weapons-1, Pilot-3, Sapper-1, Steward-1, Trader-4, Vacc Suit-4, Zero-G-1.

Without doing any math and using the rule of thumb, it's easy to tell that this character extremely competent in Zero G (Zero-G-1) as long as the task is Easy. The character will have a slight chance at Average tasks, and at Difficult tasks, the chance of success will be very, very low.

Using the Rule of Thumb on the character's Broker-5 skill, we can tell that the character will be competent on 4D tasks, have some chance on 5D tasks, and little chance after that.

Let's test what I just said. I'll even use Jamison's highest characteristic.

Stat-C, Skill-5

1D - EASY - 100%
2D - AVERAGE - 100%
3D - DIFFICULT - 99%
4D - FORMIDABLE - 84%
5D - STAGGERING - 50%
6D - HOPELESS - 6%
7D - IMPOSSIBLE - 1%

8D+ (BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE or harder) - less than 1%

 

[daltoncalford]

So, from what I have read and understood so far,

Null Skill = Character can attempt it, TIH rule applies, JOT does not apply
Default Skill (0) = TIH Rule, JOT does apply (so easy tasks become average etc and only JOT 2 or better applies to avoid tih)
Skill 1 = TIH rule applies to Average and above, JOT 1 helps with average tasks....
Skill 2 = TIH rule applies to difficult and above

etc.

So, from a basic point of view, 1 point of skill = 1 point of attribute
In detail, the reality is something like this

+7 if no attribute is defined in Task
+3 if no skill is defined in Task
+Attribute(s) Level Listed in Task
+Skill(s) Level Listed in Task
+Applicable Knowledge(s) level (listed or not in task)
+Applicable Talent(s) modifier(s)
+Modifiers due to character action
+Modifiers due to common modifiers* see applicable pages in book
​

And

Number of dice rolled is determined by

Difficulty of Task
Modified by TIH rule
Modified by how hasty
Modified by JOT if skill is required
​

So, from a typical players perspective, they must understand two confabulated systems to come up with a result, which in turn has a series of levels of possible success/failure levels from spectacular success to spectacular failure including an interesting result when both happen but the intensity of the roll (how much under the TN did you roll?). Further complicated by the possibility of hidden die rolls.

The SS rules are broken, the roll under system goes against player cultural bias and the complexity makes the associated die rolls appear to be more random chance than something the players actually can control.

All of this is based around the concept of Easy, Average, Difficult etc task levels which are meaningless names as a Easy task could be nearly impossible for someone without the correct attribute and skill levels, while impossible tasks are well within reach of those who have the correct modifiers to apply.

So, we have named the difficulty levels, but, the names do not really apply.

Even with perfect statistical probabilities, this is not a fun system. This will make even the most die hard traveller grognard cry if you ask them to teach it to non-rpg'ers.

We have Attributes, Skills, Knowledges and Talents.

All of them have an average range in value between 0 and 15. (sixteen possible values)

3D6 has a range of 16 possible values (3d6-3 = a range of 0 to 15)

Next, we say that a tasks difficulty is not named but numbered instead, starting with difficulty level 0 increasing by 1 for every difficulty.

So instead of saying an 'easy' task, you would say, a level 1 task. etc

You can now apply a rule that skills, lower the difficulty on a 1:1 basis, so a skill level 3 character makes difficulty level 3 tasks seem like difficulty level 0.

Next, skills are applied real world training and experience, while knowledges are general and non-specific so knowledges act as a bonus to the characteristic for any applicable tasks as attributes are themselves generic/non-specific values.

So, 3D6+Characteristic+Knowledge+Talent > TN

(referee rolls one die in the case of uncertain tasks)
Three 1's is critical failure, Three 6's critical success unless the final DL is 5 or greater.

TN is based upon Difficulty Level where TN=DL*5
TN can be further modified by situation (rushed, relaxed, rain, stress etc)
Some tools will reduce or increase the TN

Any difficulty level lowered to below 0 is automatic with no failure
DL 0 means rolling 0 or better, but, still with the risk of spectacular failure
DL 1 = 5+
DL 2 = 10+
DL 3 = 15 etc.

So, a typical Attribute 7 character would need to roll 8+ on 3D to beat DL 3
The same character would need to roll 13+ to beat DL 4 and 18+ to beat DL 5

I personally would make the base DL = TL
DL is increased by what is being performed ie range, complexity etc

ie, the typical TL 0 task is based upon nothing but attributes,

Using a TL 8 computer is a DL 8 task - impossible unless you have proper skill levels
The ergonomics of the tools is reflected in their modification to the TN.

So, 3D6, roll high mechanic, skill:attribute level is 1:5, knowledge:attribute level is 1:1
Talents depend upon the talent.

High skill levels help with high TL tasks.

Tools and their ergonomics means that a task may become impossible unless you have the appropriate level of tools available.

The risk of Spectacular Failure can be eliminated given enough modifiers, but stays the same risk regardless of difficulty
The chance of Spectacular Success remains the same, except, when the final difficulty level makes a natural roll of 18 just a regular success.

This is just one system. It is far from perfect and given a little work, the details could be explained in a better and shorter manner.

Simple, easy, predictable, reflecting the game mechanics and setting.

The current system just does not cut it.

 

[flykiller]

So instead of saying an 'easy' task, you would say, a level 1 task. etc

'tshow I do it in my own task system. the levels are "routine, unusual, difficult, very difficult", with the focus on training to the task. for example piloting a starship to orbit may or may not be difficult but it should be routine for someone with pilot 1. this makes it much easier to assign difficulty levels even for unexpected tasks in-game.

 

[Supplement Four]

'tshow I do it in my own task system. the levels are "routine, unusual, difficult, very difficult", with the focus on training to the task.

I think, in the UTP, the task names refer to the average human (Stat-7, Skill-2) attempting the task.

 

[flykiller]

I think, in the UTP, the task names refer to the average human (Stat-7, Skill-2) attempting the task.

sounds unnecessarily conditional and convoluted.

shall I post mine? quite proud of it, cantcha tell ....

 

[Supplement Four]

sounds unnecessarily conditional and convoluted.

shall I post mine? quite proud of it, cantcha tell ....

Sure. Post if you want. I was just relating to what the names of the MT task system difficulties refer.

 

[flykiller]

based on skill levels

2d6

success on:
routine, 3+
unusual, 6+
difficult, 9+
very difficult, 12+
extraordinary, 15+
in-game modifier: -1 for a little bit easier, +1 for a little bit harder

modifiers:
relevant skill level x2 -1
relevant personal stat: 2, -2 : 3-5, -1 : 6-8, 0 : 9-11, +1 : 12, +2

and that's it.

examples:
engineer 1 will always succeed at routine engineering tasks - light off, shut down, fuel purification, fuel transfer, other standard ops

engineer 2 needs a roll of 3+ to succeed at unusual engineering tasks - install new fuel purifier, realign maneuver drives, etc

engineer 3 is looking at a jump drive struck by a meteor. he has to rebuild the whole thing by hand. if referee rules this is an extra-ordinary task - 15 - thus the player must roll 10+ (10+2x3-1) to succeed. if a mechanic is available to assist then the referee may rule the task will be slightly easier - 15-1 for 14 - thus the engineer needs to roll 9+.

pilot 2 dex 11 is attempting to pick up refugees from mountainside during building hurricane. referee rules the task is difficult - 9 - and adds a further difficulty modifier of +1 to the required success roll for 10. player rolls a 5, 5 + 2x2 -1 + 1 = 9 and fails. referee rules he overshoots the landing target and can come around and try again. player rolls a 7 and succeeds.

this is very simple, very fast, and flexibly responsive to on-the-fly modifiers. best of all it objectively relates difficulty levels to tasks based on how often the character might be expected to perform them given their skills and training.

 

[Supplement Four]

modifiers:
relevant skill level x2 -1


.... thus the player must roll 10+ (10+2x3-1) to succeed..

Just my two cents...but you don't think, to use your own words from above, that multipling a skill then turning right around and subtracting it is unnecessarily conditional and convoluted?



Have you run statistical analysis on your system to ensure it produces good numbers?

Just from eyeballing it, it seems that anybody will Skill-3 (which isn't that hard to get, even in CT) will almost always succeed--so no roll needed.

2d6

success on:
routine, 3+
unusual, 6+
difficult, 9+
very difficult, 12+
extraordinary, 15+

Somebody with Skill-3 will throw a total of 7 automatically. That will automatically get him success on Routine and Unusual tasks.

On an average throw (7), he'll throw 12. That means that Skill-3 characters will typically beat all tasks on your system except Extraordinary.

Skill-3, in your system, means...

100% chance of success on Routine.
100% chance of success on Unusual.
92% chance of success on Difficult.
58% chance of success on Very Difficult.
17% chance of success on Extraordinary.

The point I'm making here is that, most likely, Very Difficult and Extraordinary tasks aren't seen that often. Therefore, a character with Skill-3 will typically not have to roll during a game for a task because he just about automatically succeeds on Routine, Unusual, and Difficult tasks--the tasks most often used in a game.







And, natural ability means nothing at all under your system? A pilot flying a speeder in a dog fight, with DEX-15 is just as good as his enemy, who has DEX-3, if both have Speeder-2 skill?