Has anyone looked at these values in depth? Could use some general feedback on this. Salaries, Independent Crew Salaries and Wages seem out of step to me. Also I'm not sure how the Entertainer Salaries work.
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T5.10 Costs, pg 44 Bk 1
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I will add a bit more to the confusion. The following quote appears on Page 20, left column near the top under the term "Credit".
The would appear to indicate that a basic wage for unskilled labor is about 10 Credits per hour, or for an eight-hour day, 80 Credits. For a 40 hour week, it would be 400 Credits, and for a 4 week month, 1600 Credits.
That figure causes major problems with the salaries given on page 44, as it would have an unskilled laborer making about a much in a week as a Scholar of Rank One would earn in a month.
The fastest fix that I can think of is simply add a "0" to all of the given salaries. That is not ideal, as there are problems with the distinction between enlisted and officer pay in the services. Then there is the problem with the range between a poor person and a rich person being simply a factor of 6. That just does not compute. The unskilled laborer at 10 Credits an hour has an annual income of 19,200 Credits compared to the Rich Person's annual income of 14,400 Credits.
Edit Note: The 2019 Poverty Level of the Federal Government of the U.S. is $12,490 for individuals. Six times that would be $74,960. Would a person making that consider himself "Rich" or more "Middle Class"? And if you are in a high Cost of Living area like Silicon Valley, that $74,960 would just basely cover the living expenses for one individual, who most definitely would not be viewed as "Rich" by any means.
The would appear to indicate that a basic wage for unskilled labor is about 10 Credits per hour, or for an eight-hour day, 80 Credits. For a 40 hour week, it would be 400 Credits, and for a 4 week month, 1600 Credits.
That figure causes major problems with the salaries given on page 44, as it would have an unskilled laborer making about a much in a week as a Scholar of Rank One would earn in a month.
The fastest fix that I can think of is simply add a "0" to all of the given salaries. That is not ideal, as there are problems with the distinction between enlisted and officer pay in the services. Then there is the problem with the range between a poor person and a rich person being simply a factor of 6. That just does not compute. The unskilled laborer at 10 Credits an hour has an annual income of 19,200 Credits compared to the Rich Person's annual income of 14,400 Credits.
Edit Note: The 2019 Poverty Level of the Federal Government of the U.S. is $12,490 for individuals. Six times that would be $74,960. Would a person making that consider himself "Rich" or more "Middle Class"? And if you are in a high Cost of Living area like Silicon Valley, that $74,960 would just basely cover the living expenses for one individual, who most definitely would not be viewed as "Rich" by any means.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
You basically figure out the cost of living in that particular milieu, and if your income allows basic luxuries and grown up toys.
To be clear, I consider air/rafts more of a passed on legacy for middle class families.
To be clear, I consider air/rafts more of a passed on legacy for middle class families.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
The last point is something to keep in mind, our modern day disposable mindset would change if say our cars cost 10x as much, but also were reliable for 1 million miles with minimal fuel and maintenance.
Also, many people in an urban high tech environment may never own one but automated rafttaxis and raft buses might allow the flexibility owning individual vehicles do and longer service lives allows for affordable per-trip governmental/company transport.
Sebastion Russ
SOC-8
Value =/ Wage
I see this confusion often when discussing wages. Depending on your job, you will be paid between 1/5 and 1/3 of the value of your work. The rest of that money goes to overhead, materials, and profit for your employer. 'unskilled' labor (old definitions, not work which requires no skill) is closer to the 1/5, as it often requires equipment, high disability and worker comp premiums, and often requires some form of materials (construction, food service, retail, ect.). The 'Professions' (doctors, lawyers, engineers, ect.) are usually at the 1/3 side of the spectrum, as most of the 'cost' comes from years of education and training, rather than equipment. The work also comes with fewer physical risks both short term and long, in general.
This means that a full hour for our laborer produces an economic value of 10Cr, with a wage of likely 2Cr. Considering this laborer can also get a meal for 1Cr, something that would have cost me almost an hour of wages when I worked in food service, he is doing fine.
Keep in mind though: we are talking about the Imperial average wage at the Imperial average tech level. The productivity of a laborer with an 'ultimate shovel' and an 'ultimate space-shovel' are bound to be very different.
I see this confusion often when discussing wages. Depending on your job, you will be paid between 1/5 and 1/3 of the value of your work. The rest of that money goes to overhead, materials, and profit for your employer. 'unskilled' labor (old definitions, not work which requires no skill) is closer to the 1/5, as it often requires equipment, high disability and worker comp premiums, and often requires some form of materials (construction, food service, retail, ect.). The 'Professions' (doctors, lawyers, engineers, ect.) are usually at the 1/3 side of the spectrum, as most of the 'cost' comes from years of education and training, rather than equipment. The work also comes with fewer physical risks both short term and long, in general.
This means that a full hour for our laborer produces an economic value of 10Cr, with a wage of likely 2Cr. Considering this laborer can also get a meal for 1Cr, something that would have cost me almost an hour of wages when I worked in food service, he is doing fine.
Keep in mind though: we are talking about the Imperial average wage at the Imperial average tech level. The productivity of a laborer with an 'ultimate shovel' and an 'ultimate space-shovel' are bound to be very different.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I think that you are over-valuing the Credit by a fair amount. One Credit for a meal does not compute very well, even when the Credit was on par with the 1977 Dollar. A meal for a Credit would have the Credit value being around $5 or so, which would put the output of unskilled labor at $50 per hour, which is clearly way too high.
Now, I can get soup and salad at Olive Garden for lunch at $8.99. Corned Beef Hash and 2 eggs, 2 pancakes, and fruit runs me $10.19. My favorite meat loaf sandwich with mashed potatoes and gravy runs me $11.99. Now, if you peg the Credit on par with the current U.S. Dollar, then a wage of 10 Credits per hour for an unskilled laborer would get him a decent meal.
The bottom line is that you have to come up with a value for the Credit in terms of what items cost before you can start to figure out a cost of living and some form a wage scale. The Wage Scale on page 44 of Book 1 just does not cut it.
Sebastion Russ
SOC-8
I am not going to pretend that all of the costs in T5 make sense, but I will hold firm that the Credit is worth (on average) between $5-10 in 2019 USD. Book 3 Pg. 183 shows an entry for rations costing 2Cr. I have purchased many an MREs, both military and civilian, and they are rarely under $10/each, usually significantly more, closer to $15/each. I have also taken 'Good Meal' to mean something akin to a steak dinner or multi-course meal. Those are often in the $30-$80 price point.
An (average) economic output of $50/hr for unskilled labor is right on the money in today's economy, using the USA as a base of course. I work in construction and can tell you that it is even low for unskilled labor in my area. of course, we need to remember that value DOES NOT EQUAL wages.
Using the wage table on page 44, I do agree that receiving a wage of $20-30/hr for 'unskilled labor' does feel high, although I actually know several people who fall into that category and wage range.
Onto your point about cost of living, while I cannot see myself spending 40% of my wages on food, it could easily happen if I did not cook for myself. The net costs are certainly in line with my observations of coworkers, friends, and family, remembering again that these are averages.
To be fair, the plural of anecdote is not data, and my knowledge may be limited in ways I cannot imagine.
An (average) economic output of $50/hr for unskilled labor is right on the money in today's economy, using the USA as a base of course. I work in construction and can tell you that it is even low for unskilled labor in my area. of course, we need to remember that value DOES NOT EQUAL wages.
Using the wage table on page 44, I do agree that receiving a wage of $20-30/hr for 'unskilled labor' does feel high, although I actually know several people who fall into that category and wage range.
Onto your point about cost of living, while I cannot see myself spending 40% of my wages on food, it could easily happen if I did not cook for myself. The net costs are certainly in line with my observations of coworkers, friends, and family, remembering again that these are averages.
To be fair, the plural of anecdote is not data, and my knowledge may be limited in ways I cannot imagine.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Given that you are located in the San Francisco Bay area, one of the highest cost-of-living areas in the U.S., I think that we have two totally different views of what is reasonable and what is not. I am not sure how fruitful it would be to continue this discussion, so I will say that you use your definition of a Credit and I will use mine. I imagine that most players will use their own definition based on their own experience.
It should be noted that Marc is located in Bloomington, Illinois, which has a totally differnt cost structure than the Chicago area where I am located.
Sebastion Russ
SOC-8
I am personally located in the Bay Area, yes. However, my work takes me across the US, and my family is spread from Illinois to Oregon. The largest difference between COL is typically rent, followed by food. What you mentioned regarding Olive Garden is also applicable in the Bay. The costs change by maybe 20%. Rent? by closer to 100%. still not an order of magnitude.
If you wish to end the discussion, so be it. Let me know if you have a change of heart in the future.
If you wish to end the discussion, so be it. Let me know if you have a change of heart in the future.
I've been buying online in bulk Civilian ones down around $ 2.50 a meal, and USA MRE's around $4.50. That was online. I would go to a local Military surplus store and offer cash and get them for $5 each if I'd take the no meat ones and bought 20 of them.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. Maybe you have to hold down two jobs. And so does your significant other.
2. We all know that economics in Traveller is rather contrived.
3. Having said that, in a higher technologicised society, mass transportation should be cheaper and faster for passengers, and you can set up commuter townships further away from urban centres, where rents would be more in line with wages.
4. Some professions and jobs you could just phone it in, while living in the backwoods as long as you have a reliable satellite linked internet with lots of broadband.
5. I'm pretty sure by then they can produce some nutritious mush that's artificially flavoured and dirt cheap, I Can't Believe it's Not Chicken.
2. We all know that economics in Traveller is rather contrived.
3. Having said that, in a higher technologicised society, mass transportation should be cheaper and faster for passengers, and you can set up commuter townships further away from urban centres, where rents would be more in line with wages.
4. Some professions and jobs you could just phone it in, while living in the backwoods as long as you have a reliable satellite linked internet with lots of broadband.
5. I'm pretty sure by then they can produce some nutritious mush that's artificially flavoured and dirt cheap, I Can't Believe it's Not Chicken.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Then there is the other issue of what do you use of you decide not to play in the Imperium, but use T5.10 for your own universe setting. The original books did not have the Imperium for a basis, and assumed that you would create your own setting. At that point, the idea of a universal currency sort of goes out the window.
Then there is the whole medium of exchange bit.
Electronic funds transfer is simply book keeping between people and societies that have physical goods and services that they regularly conduct trade. Without such a regular trade, transfer of wealth between societies require some agreed value to the trade. For example, if the valani showed up in our orbit today and wanted to buy things with stainless steel 500 credit coins, that weigh 1000000 of the coins per ton. The resource value of that ton of coins is about $500 USD, and at 1 million of the coins the collectors would value them at perhaps a few billion USD in total for the lot. Now let a trading fleet show up with 8000 tons of the things, enough for perhaps every human on earth to have one, and the novelty price drops to perhaps $1.00 each coin. A second trading fleet shows up with 8 million tons of the things, and now their only value to us is the value of the stainless steel material in them. Giving us a final value for 100,000 Cr imperial in 500 CR coins to be $1.
Turning the situation on it's head, the Valani show up with modular 10,000 MW fusion reactors... We offer paper currency and get laughed at, they want precious metals, art objects, examples of technologies that we have but are new to them, in other words until a regular trade is established, all such trade will be at the barter level.
Electronic funds transfer is simply book keeping between people and societies that have physical goods and services that they regularly conduct trade. Without such a regular trade, transfer of wealth between societies require some agreed value to the trade. For example, if the valani showed up in our orbit today and wanted to buy things with stainless steel 500 credit coins, that weigh 1000000 of the coins per ton. The resource value of that ton of coins is about $500 USD, and at 1 million of the coins the collectors would value them at perhaps a few billion USD in total for the lot. Now let a trading fleet show up with 8000 tons of the things, enough for perhaps every human on earth to have one, and the novelty price drops to perhaps $1.00 each coin. A second trading fleet shows up with 8 million tons of the things, and now their only value to us is the value of the stainless steel material in them. Giving us a final value for 100,000 Cr imperial in 500 CR coins to be $1.
Turning the situation on it's head, the Valani show up with modular 10,000 MW fusion reactors... We offer paper currency and get laughed at, they want precious metals, art objects, examples of technologies that we have but are new to them, in other words until a regular trade is established, all such trade will be at the barter level.
I'm sure I'm the only one that initially read this as USED MRE's.
At that point it doesn't really matter. You need A currency and A prices list, since any currency and any price list is essentially arbitrary, especially at this point, so you may as well use the ones in the books rather than make it all up out of whole cloth when you can be rolling characters and making floor plans for the next adventure.
What they learn quickly is the if they want those metals, arts, and technologies, we DO value paper currency. Show up on the door of an art collector with a 10,000MW fusion reactor asking to trade for a Picasso, he's likely to tell you to pound sand. "Turn that reactor in to the universal currency, then we can talk. I can't use a reactor, and I'm not in the reactor selling business. There's a pawn shop in the city, you can start there."
Sebastion Russ
SOC-8
2 things:
1. That is bulk, not individual. Bulk tends to be cheaper per unit that individual by a significant margin. Book 3 states that the purchase price of a single ration is 2Cr. And I would consider the 'no meat ones' something like the Vomlet, which was a terrible ration. If you can eat that and enjoy it, you are a stronger person than I. They had to discontinue it because even the soldier couldn't stand it. and the Maple Sausages that replaced it were just a giant sugar bomb with terrible nutrition. Poor quality goods in traveller are given the 'Generic' stage and are half price. see Book 1 pg 45.
2. Where did you find that and when? the current going price online for real MREs is about $15 each individually and $10 each in bulk. Civilian MREs are similar. I am aware that there was a time when you could get cases of expired MREs off a pickup truck for $20 each. Those days have been over for some time on the Pacific coast.
Remember that we have been talking about the averages here. If one person in one place can find something for a couple bucks, but the majority pays $10-20, then the average is still $15.
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Sebastion Russ
SOC-8
I do use my own setting, and I have found my own basis for the Credit outside of a measure of labor. It is heavily based in the lore for my setting, but is basically the tariff value for 1/2000 of a volumetric ton of cargo traveling through my version of a pre-existing interstellar highway.
Although it you wanted to go true, hard sci-ft with a fusion economy, the concept of living expenses and wages kind of goes out the airlock. Even a TL 10 society should be essentially post-scarcity and have no trouble providing for its citizens en mass. Vast amounts of cheap, safe, non-polluting energy means virtually anywhere with hydrogen is comfortably habitable.
But roleplaying a space adventure in a utopia with no stakes is not very engaging. So...we have rules for commerce anyway.
3 months ago online The MRE's were from Western Frontier Trading 101 El Chanate Dr Ste A, Canuillo Tx 79835
this was for a package of 1 case A and one case B bound together , my lot date was 05/25/18 Amazon carries that today at about $159 and some change or about $6.66 each MRE.
The civilian ones were SOPAKCO Emergency ration reduced sodium meals, a 14 meal case. each meal 1060 calories, only one menu item. Currently I'm finding it listed on Amazon for $62.50 or $4.45 per meal. perhaps more searching can find a better price. Yeah I've seen them around $40 on ebay, there's a $2.85 price per.
Vendor was MRAL kit supply 415523 0600 Buffalo
638 Michigan Ave.
Buffalo NY 11303
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I'm sure I'm the only one that initially read this as USED MRE's.
What they learn quickly is the if they want those metals, arts, and technologies, we DO value paper currency. Show up on the door of an art collector with a 10,000MW fusion reactor asking to trade for a Picasso, he's likely to tell you to pound sand. "Turn that reactor in to the universal currency, then we can talk. I can't use a reactor, and I'm not in the reactor selling business. There's a pawn shop in the city, you can start there."
Used MRE's? well their unofficial name initially was Meals Rejected by Everyone.
If you're selling 10,000 MW fusion plants, the government is going tell you who can buy your product, you'll just tell them what you want in exchange and they'll make it happen.
Of course these are Valanii traders, their operations manual will be at the trained monkey level, and repair instructions are to return it for in-warranty repairs, as there are no user repairable parts inside, and if the seals are broken, the warranty is voided.
The Terrans broke these seals 5 minutes after taking possession.
The Terrans broke these seals 5 minutes after taking possession.
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