Starship combat question :- fun with missles :-)

[andycowley]

My T5 group just completed a simulated starship combat to 'qualify' them operating a new starship they have obtained (I find this a useful campaign device to expose them to starship combat without actually having to risk their lives) ... during the action I found something odd and wanted to get peoples feedback here ...

Missiles .. It would appear from the Starship combat rules that if a missile survives Anti Missile fire (vs. an AM mode weapon) then it hits automatically ... in other words there is no need to make a starship weapon attack task roll in the next round (Target) for the Missile .... This seems odd to me as it would make Missiles the space weapon of choice almost exclusively for smaller ships ....

Example; Two starships with equal TL .... Size 5 missile launched at S= 6 with HW guidance and defended by a dual laser turret with mod = -2 ... The AM action roll is 1D< -2 (+5 -2 -5) ... therefore AM fire is ineffective and the missile automatically hits .... This ineffective anti missile fire remains true for any two ships of equal TL up to and including a single Barbette (B1 with mod +1) .. UNLESS you improve your AM weapon mount with stage effects (single turrets can't be effective until 'Ultimate' and a quad turret has to be at least 'improved') .... It gets MUCH worse with Self Aware and Operator Guided missiles ....

This seems to make missiles way too powerful for my thinking particularly given the automatic hit if AM fire is ineffective ......

Why wouldn't the gunner have to make a successful space weapon attack roll in the 'Target' round? (to make sure, for example, that he loaded the correct firing solution into the missiles HW guidance system) ...

Feedback is welcome ....

 

[Licheking]

I would have thought that the right course of action would be to make the missile make an attack task with its C+S+K at close range SR-1. HW missiles have 5 so could miss but is unlikely.

I won't be using the AM rules as written as it takes no account for gunner skills, and currently i make a gunner roll to target the missile giving it a bonus to get through AM fire but then the missile still has to hit if it has not been shot down.

 

[Nerhesi]

I'm pretty sure this is similar to the problems of small-craft using beams that can fire at S=7. Since they can't be engaged until range S=6 due to their size, you effectively have fighters killing you from beyond your engagement range.

 

[esampson]

Missiles have the advantage of automatically hitting and being able to inflict more damage than comparably sized weapons for smaller craft (ships unable to use thing like 50 ton bays or spinal mounts).

They do have some drawbacks though. For one thing I believe they are easy to defeat than beams since an awful lot of weapons can be used in AM mode (whereas only sandcasters can be used in AB mode). Additionally since missiles take longer to reach their target the defenders may have multiple rounds to try and shoot down the missiles.

 

[cym0k]

That makes a lot of sense actually. You can keep trying to pick off incoming missile fire until the round of impact.

 

[andycowley]

cym0k and esampson,

Unfortunately I must disagree with your statements .... specifically ....

1) Weapons used in AM mode only have range S=2 ... In my experience most ships which are not attempting boarding 'stand off' (maybe S-4, 5) and pound the target vessel with Missiles while using beams in AM mode.. Check the table on page 412 & 413 ... so you only get ONE shot in AM mode against incoming missiles fired in the previous round.

2) Compare the AM mode action vs. firing a beam weapon at S= 5. Lets assume two ships with the same TL, size 5 missles w/HW guidance and a no stage effects triple beam laser turret attacking and defending in AM mode (Gunner with C4/C5 @ 7 and skill + knowledge @ 3).

AM mode action 1D < (5 -1 -5) -1 ........ AM mode ineffective, all missiles auto hit

Space Wpn attack 5D < 10 + 10 + (7-5) 2 -1 or 5D < 21 or a 85% chance of a hit


Given the current rules I'm loading my personal ACS ship with gobs of missile turrets

I tend to agree with Licheking .... its disappointing the AM mode action takes no account of defending gunner skill or ship agility ...

 

[esampson]

cym0k and esampson,

Unfortunately I must disagree with your statements .... specifically ....

1) Weapons used in AM mode only have range S=2 ... In my experience most ships which are not attempting boarding 'stand off' (maybe S-4, 5) and pound the target vessel with Missiles while using beams in AM mode.. Check the table on page 412 & 413 ... so you only get ONE shot in AM mode against incoming missiles fired in the previous round.

2) Compare the AM mode action vs. firing a beam weapon at S= 5. Lets assume two ships with the same TL, size 5 missles w/HW guidance and a no stage effects triple beam laser turret attacking and defending in AM mode (Gunner with C4/C5 @ 7 and skill + knowledge @ 3).

AM mode action 1D < (5 -1 -5) -1 ........ AM mode ineffective, all missiles auto hit

Space Wpn attack 5D < 10 + 10 + (7-5) 2 -1 or 5D < 21 or a 85% chance of a hit


Given the current rules I'm loading my personal ACS ship with gobs of missile turrets

I tend to agree with Licheking .... its disappointing the AM mode action takes no account of defending gunner skill or ship agility ...

Oh, I'm pretty sure that missiles are better than beam weapons. I never meant to imply they were equal. All I was trying to say was that they do come with some limitations of their own.

I missed the fact that beams in AM mode have a range of only S2, so yeah, you would really only get a single shot. However, as far as standoff mode goes any ship at a range of further than S2 means they don't get to resolve damage until after the round that the missile was fired. In the case of ships at S6 or further the damage won't occur until at least six rounds have resolved. All of those allow for time for the ship to jump away, if it has the gas.

One would well imagine that wise pilots would not allow unidentified or enemy ships to close to within less than S6 is they can avoid it. Naturally you can't do that during things such as landing, but then you've got the spaceport defense working for you.

On the other hand a beam weapon can hit target at S6 and S7 on the very same round. Their odds may not be great, but they are far from terrible.

 

[andycowley]

esampson ... yes they do and must have for the nefarious referee counteracting the min/max players in the group

Once I've tried this out 'for real' in a few more space combats I may adopt Lichekings suggestion of forcing the missile gunner to roll a space weapon task (attack) to hit with any missile that survives AM mode fire ..... I would ask the gunner to resolve the task at the range the missile was 'launched' for HW guidance simulating the difficulty of loading the correct firing solution at such long range .... I have to think about SA & DL missiles a little more however ..

On a side note about missile effectiveness ... A long time ago I got into a huge flame war debate on a forum which was debating Missiles in (SciFi) space combat in a Babylon5 context ... I think given the T5 current rules my position that missiles are THE small ship weapon of choice remains true

 

[esampson]

Oh, additionally it turns out that every weapon that is in AM mode gets to try and shoot down every missile (pg. 406 '...any (and every) incoming missile'), the TL comparison seems to be based on ships and not weapons, and only the defensive weapon gets a staging mod. That means that you could put a T4 Adv Mining Laser on a ship (TL11) and if the ships are equal TL it has a 2 in 3 chance of shooting each missile out of the air (assuming equal TL for the ships). Put two of those on the ship and the odds of any individual missile being shot down goes up to 8 in 9.

With a 300 ton ship I will probably be able to pound the snot out of your missile boat. 3 B2 Imp PA (TL-12) and if I engage you at attack range I will have 7 rounds before your missiles even reach me. At that point I switch 2 of the turrets over to AM and 89% of the missiles are shot down while I can continue to attack.

Are missiles good? Sure. I'm not saying they aren't just because I can pretty easily build a ship that can take on your missile boat. I'm just saying they aren't the end all, be all.