What is the TL for creating artificial people/androids/sophontoids? I thought it was spelled out somewhere in T5 but I'll be danged in I can find it.
Sophontoids
- Thread starter Garnfellow
- Start date
My 5.09 pdf has it in the section on Technology, p501 in the right column. It lists...
That said, on p505 it lists semi-organic brains at TL11, positronic brains as available at TL12, wafer tech at TL13 and self-awareness at TL14.
So that's the OTU word on it. How do you want to apply it?
That said, on p505 it lists semi-organic brains at TL11, positronic brains as available at TL12, wafer tech at TL13 and self-awareness at TL14.
So that's the OTU word on it. How do you want to apply it?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Cloning and genetic engineering is advanced enough to produce synthetics at around TL13 or 14 IIRC.
That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks!
There does seem to be something a bit wonky about the TL progression here. Westworld style androids are TL 16, but Blade Runner replicants are . . . TL 14?
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Tech Level in Traveller 5 is a bit of a:CoW:
Kingdoms and cities are listed at TL 1.6, Middle Ages 600 AD.
Galleys are listed at TL 1.6, Middle Ages 600 AD, and Sailing Ships at TL 2, 1500 AD.
The Wheel is TL 1.3, Iron Age, 1300 BC. while the Musket and Cannon are listed at TL 3, Industrial Revolution 1700 AD.
Siege Weapons are also listed at TL 1.6, Middle Ages 600 AD, when the Assyrians, Greeks, and Romans were using siege weapons of various types about a 1000 years earlier.
The Civil SST is listed at TL 9, 2050 AD, when the Concorde first flew in 1969, or TL 7.
Given that historical Tech Levels for items or groups or technology can be quite a ways off, I view future Tech Levels with a large grain of salt. It is seems wrong, then change it to something that looks right.
Campaign idea: artificial persons and AI are available at TL 14 and the Third Imperium has had access to such tech since at least 900, despite the widely-held belief that these technologies are still several years away. But someone -- or something -- placed high within the government is determined to keep this information secret at all costs . . .
It could all just be a bit of degrees and interpretation.
I"ve allowed for Virtual Intelligences at lower TLs, where there seems to be a consciousness but it's really just learned and programmed and copied. An expert system that's meant to behave like a sophont could do so with sufficient work put into it, and there could even be some pretty impressive machine intelligences at lower TLs (lower, 15, ha!). But IMTU it's at 16 that creativity, as seen in other sophonts, becomes truly apparent.
I suppose there's not much in the distinctions, but you get to choose in YTU.
As for replicants, I'd put them in the MI range: able to impersonate another sophont and do great problem solving in areas they're programmed for, but without the unstructured creativity that's otherwise possible.
I think I'll add Timerover's points as errata.
Similarly, the problem with synthetic persons and AI is that, if a definition exists to explain the differences by TL, such definition is not in the text or is not clear. SO there may be errata somewhere in there.
Similarly, the problem with synthetic persons and AI is that, if a definition exists to explain the differences by TL, such definition is not in the text or is not clear. SO there may be errata somewhere in there.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I will try to get some Tech Level corrections posted nest week. This weekend is a bit hectic.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Found it, it is in the Syntheyics section that starts on page 92 of the 5.09pdf
This is what it says on page 93:
Some of this is well on the way
Possibly the errata is in the explanation that TL is not the point of introduction but where the technology becomes mature and stable. This is different to other editions of Traveller.
See the the Tech Level Stages chart for the explanation of Standard on p.497
For example Siege weapons at TL1.6 ~600AD reflect the mature and stable adoption of siege engines as set out in Book IV of De re Militari by Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus around 400AD.
Ealier versions of siege engines were Experimental, Prototype and Early versions of what had become Standard by 600AD.
Improved, Advanced and Ultimate versions became available after TL1.6 as manufacturing and the understanding of science improved.
For example lets take military tunneling as an example.
TL0.6 Early Military Tunneling: Primitive warriors use bone antler picks to undermine the stone walls of the crude shelters of their enemies.
TL1.6 Standard Military Tunneling: Professional miners apply their skills to the undermining of city and castle walls. Driving tunnels reinforced with timber to lay fires fueled by animal fats under the foundations of fortifications.
TL4.6 Ultimate Military Tunneling: WW1 Western Front. Tunnelers drive tunnels beneath no-mans land under the German trenches to place mines. Ultimate tunnels feature electric lighting, listening devices and other applications of TL4 mechanization.
Now I'd never actually go this strict when world building but its a useful reference as long as the Referee applies common sense.
If we look at the classic catapult we could go:
TL0.6 Early catapults are hand slings made of animal sinew or Atlanti (a stick used to mechanically increase the power of the thrower) for throwing missiles against the enemy.
TL1.6 Standard Catapult incorporates winch technology to use torsion (as in the Ballista and Onager) or gravity (as in the trebuchet) as the propelling force for the missile.
TL4.6 Ultimate Catapults appear during the First world War making use of mechanical torsion and spring technology to throw exploding missiles in the form of grenades. Ultimate Catapults are superseded by trench mortars.
Civil Supersonic Transports are listed with a Standard TL of 9 so a TL7 Concorde would be classed as "Prototype is the first step before early mass production. There are perhaps a dozen examples of any one prototype" BBB p497
There were 20 Concordes built, only 14 of which saw limited commercial service.
A TL9 Super Sonic Transport would be mature and stable technology. Players at TL9 would expect their airliner to be an SST just as we expect an airliner to be some variation of a 737. It becomes the Standard for that TL.
Tech Level in T5 may not be broken, it just may not be well explained.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
The Assyrians were using battering rams, siege towers on wheels, and borers that are pretty much identical with what was used in the Middle Ages. The only thing that showed up later than the Greeks was the Trebuchet. As for improvements, the ability of the Greeks and Romans to manufacture sinew rope for a power source for the ballista and mangonel/onager was not duplicated during the Middle Ages as the technique used in the manufacture of sinew rope was not preserved. In many respect, Medieval siege engines were simply poor copies of earlier ones.
Similarly, the formula for "Greek Fire" that ignited spontaneously on contact with water and could be pumped through a syphon, was developed around 715 AD and was evidently lost during the attack on Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade in 1215. No use of true "Greek Fire" appears after that, and the formula has yet to be recreated. The "Greek Fire" used after 1215 is simply a thrown incendiary, based on petroleum. My assumption is that the formula for manufacture was passed on my word of mouth or possibly was written down in a very limited number of places.
Now, either you settle on a date and uniform policy on Tech Level, or you are going to have a total mishmash like you already have. When it comes to the use of stone for construction, it was already at a very high level during the Pyramid building period in Egypt, circa 2500 BC. Are you planning on having the Egyptian buildings be viewed as "Experimental"? The oldest known brick structure is somewhere around 7000 BC. Roman concrete, using volcanic ash, is still surviving today. As you thinking of "Stage Effects" for that?
As for muskets and cannon, the main improvement to the musket was the shift from matchlock to flintlock and then percussion ignition. This did very little to improve its accuracy, and the early Spanish musket of around 1525, firing a 2 ounce ball, had a longer range and apparently better accuracy than the British Brown Bess of circa 1800. As for cannon, the major improvement between 1500 and 1800 was in the carriage and the powder used. Better powder allowed for smaller propelling charges and therefore shorter barrels.
Really great points there. As Rob indicated, using stages to better explain when and how items were introduced and developed allows for some nice nuances in the type of technology that's used in game play.
A pulse laser in an orbital satellite put up by a TL7 country worried about pirates getting too close and impacting on interstellar trade important to them? The theory for it would be obtainable from visiting starships. So the local planetary state that wants to put the thing up does so with what is, from staging considerations, a prototype. Bigger than the mature version, with a larger power pack again because of tech staging impacts, but the whole thing could be there.
Local planetary defences in MTU may never be the same again.
The other thing about TL is that it denotes what PCs expect to find when they visit a world. What it doesn't take into account is economics and other driving factors that may mean technology is present and available or absent.
A world might be capable of producing Prototype or Early versions of an SST for example, but for economic reasons may not actually pursue widespread introduction and standardization as technology matures because already mature subsonic turbofan airliners are more economical at higher stage effects of their TL.
Other factors like war and pressing defense needs might push a world to build that pulse laser and place it in orbit, expending more resources to do so "now" rather than waiting for the technology to mature.
The main question may be "Is Tech Level in T5 a guide to support game narrative for the Referee and Players or is it a hard rule for reality simulation?".
A world might be capable of producing Prototype or Early versions of an SST for example, but for economic reasons may not actually pursue widespread introduction and standardization as technology matures because already mature subsonic turbofan airliners are more economical at higher stage effects of their TL.
Other factors like war and pressing defense needs might push a world to build that pulse laser and place it in orbit, expending more resources to do so "now" rather than waiting for the technology to mature.
The main question may be "Is Tech Level in T5 a guide to support game narrative for the Referee and Players or is it a hard rule for reality simulation?".
Wouldn't that depend on how you run YTU? Would refs need to take into account the RU rating of a world, as that would be another indicator of what it would be able to output within the parameters of TL?
Well speaking about T5 the way it stresses MOARN and the way the Makers are set up to provide the basics needed to play, but allows players and refs to use imagination to add as much or little detail that they want I think TL works okay.
I haven't found any of the glaring errors. Some things take a little imagination and contemplation. but when Stages are taken into account they generally make sense for the OTU.
Those are things that go to the style of T5.
If you change the the way TL works in T5 radically to say TL represents the first introduction, because thats the way it happened in Terran history, then it becomes less of a tool and more prescriptive.
A TL system that supports narrative allows you to interpret things in a way that supports your style of world building while keeping the game universe consistent.
Using your orbital defense laser as an example, the narrative TL allows you to do that and gives you guidance on what can be done technically and lets you come up with the back story why. The other way says "sorry, not available until TL9, plot-line denied".
If you want to use a world's RU rating to help you figure out what effect the economy might have on availability of tech on a world of given TL, that works. You can also look at what trade routes the world is on. Or you can throw a D6 to randomly decide whats actually available or not.
T5 is a toolbox for creating a game, you don't need to use any or all of them to get the game you want.
