Shipyard workers
- Thread starter rancke
- Start date
Tough question.
I would say that it depends upon the size of the ship being built and the level of automation that is available.
If the TL is high enough, and the automation for drones and robots is available, I would hazzard that at minimum, it would require an architect and a few others to oversee and maintain the automated workforce regardless of the ships size.
If the automation is not available, and the ship being built is on the large end of the scale, you could literally have hundreds, if not thousands of people working on the ship build. For this end of the spectrum, I would use as a base, the number of employees at a Naval Shipyard that builds large ships.
Sorry I can't be more exact.
Rich
I would say that it depends upon the size of the ship being built and the level of automation that is available.
If the TL is high enough, and the automation for drones and robots is available, I would hazzard that at minimum, it would require an architect and a few others to oversee and maintain the automated workforce regardless of the ships size.
If the automation is not available, and the ship being built is on the large end of the scale, you could literally have hundreds, if not thousands of people working on the ship build. For this end of the spectrum, I would use as a base, the number of employees at a Naval Shipyard that builds large ships.
Sorry I can't be more exact.
Rich
Even so there are many steps on ship building, and most of them need (at least) different supervisors and are probably done at different places. From the metalworking to make the alloys needed, the pieces production (each kind of piece needs different machines, I guess), computers production, assembling, moving parts from place to place, etc...
To this you must add suport services (administrative, seccurity, mostly if we talk about military ships, etc) and test crew...
As you said, though to calculate.
Can anyone point how many people is today involved in the building of a ship (from a small fisherman or tramp freighter to a large warship)?
Using the old CT LBB 2 as a guide from decades ago when one of my players asked me the same thing.
Engineering in starship required 1 Engineer per 35 tons of ships drives, so;
1 Worker per 35 tons of ship (Add 5 tons per TL over 10)
1 Engineer per 35 tons of engines to be installed
1 Engineer per 20 tons of bridge space (Add 5 tons per TL over 10)
1 Supervisor per 25 workers
1 Admin per 50 employees
1 Manager per 100 employees
1 medic per 50 employees
1 Steward (cook) per 50 employees
1 Steward (housing) per 25 employees
1 housing manager per 50 staterooms (employee quarters)
1 HR (Human Resources) Manager per 50 employees
1 Janitor per every 100 tons of ship yard facilities
1 Quarter Master per every 1000 tons of ship building capacity (if more than 5 Quarter Masters, they will be specialized)
1 Quarter Master Supplier (Merchant) per 500 tons of ship building capacity
1 Firefighter per 100 tons of ship yard facilities
1 Maintenance Engineer for every 500 tons of ship yard facilities
1 Sales manager (merchant) for every different type of made over 1000 tons (min of 1 manger per facility)
IF needed
1 armed guard per every 500 tons of ship yard facilities
1 Patrol ship (armed) for every 1000 tons of ship yard facilities (min 1)
1 fueling station (1 per 1000 tons of fuel storage) and crew (depends on the number of refueling ships)
1 Engineer per 100 tons of fuel processing plant
1 Architect per 1000 tons of ship design
Hope this helps
Dave Chase
Engineering in starship required 1 Engineer per 35 tons of ships drives, so;
1 Worker per 35 tons of ship (Add 5 tons per TL over 10)
1 Engineer per 35 tons of engines to be installed
1 Engineer per 20 tons of bridge space (Add 5 tons per TL over 10)
1 Supervisor per 25 workers
1 Admin per 50 employees
1 Manager per 100 employees
1 medic per 50 employees
1 Steward (cook) per 50 employees
1 Steward (housing) per 25 employees
1 housing manager per 50 staterooms (employee quarters)
1 HR (Human Resources) Manager per 50 employees
1 Janitor per every 100 tons of ship yard facilities
1 Quarter Master per every 1000 tons of ship building capacity (if more than 5 Quarter Masters, they will be specialized)
1 Quarter Master Supplier (Merchant) per 500 tons of ship building capacity
1 Firefighter per 100 tons of ship yard facilities
1 Maintenance Engineer for every 500 tons of ship yard facilities
1 Sales manager (merchant) for every different type of made over 1000 tons (min of 1 manger per facility)
IF needed
1 armed guard per every 500 tons of ship yard facilities
1 Patrol ship (armed) for every 1000 tons of ship yard facilities (min 1)
1 fueling station (1 per 1000 tons of fuel storage) and crew (depends on the number of refueling ships)
1 Engineer per 100 tons of fuel processing plant
1 Architect per 1000 tons of ship design
Hope this helps
Dave Chase
Thanks, Dave. Let me try an example (the shipyard that provoked this train of thought):
Capacity 120,000T, TL 13. Civilian ships, concentrates on annual maintenance.
1 worker per 50T of ship: 2,400
Have to figure an average, since the actual ships are undetermined. Maneuver drive 1, Jump drive 2, Power plant 2. 9% of the ships according to HG. 9% of 120,000 is 10,800, divided by 35 is 309 workers.
2% of 120,000 divided by 35 equals 69 workers.
2400+309+69 = 2778 = 111 supervisors.
2889/50 = 58
1200 janitors, 120 quarter masters, 240 merchants, 1200 firefighters, 240 maintenance engineers. Total 3000.
Some of these figures sounds high to me. Especially the firefighters. Would the number and/size of fires really go up linearly?
From now on we run into recursion, since the employees listed below would also require managing, medical service, food, lodgings, etc..
5947 employees so far, requiring 60 administrators.
119 medics and 119 cooks for the 5947.
[/quote]1 Steward (housing) per 25 employees[/quote]
238 housing stewards for the 5947.
Civilian workforce, so I'm counting a stateroom per employee. That's 119 housing managers for the 5947.
And another 119 HR managers.
No idea of how many different designs catered to. 25? 50? 100? I'll go with 24for now to make the numbers come out to a nice even 800.
That's 800 service personnel for the 5947, or a bit under 1 service guy per 8 workers. Call it another 100 to cater to the 800 and leave it at that.
The total would be 6847 for a capacity of 120,000T or very near 6 per 100T[*]. How does that sound?
[*] At TL 13.
Hans
I started with an estimate that 'labor' costs are about 25% of total costs (plus 25% for raw materials, 25% for the factory, and 25% administration and profit) and the assumption that general workers earn about 1000 credits per month (like a gunner).
So each worker can manufacture 4000 credits of starship per month.
The factory costs 1000 credits per month per worker = 240,000 credits of factory per worker = about 2 dt of factory per worker.
The shipyard imports 1000 credits of materials per month per worker.
Administrator salaries and profit equal about 1000 credits per month per worker = 600 credits per month per worker for administration and 400 credits per month per worker for profit.
So a shipyard capable of manufacturing 1 million credits of starship per month would require 250 workers, 60 MCr worth of shipyard facilities (500 dTons of workspace; 250,000 credits per month for fixed operating costs), 75 Administration/Sales workers at 2000 credits/month average, and generate 100,000 credits per month profit for the owners.
[note that this is a REALLY small shipyard ... like "able to build a single 20 dT launch per year" small.]
So those are the IMTU numbers that I use for all manufacturing.
[EDIT: A highly automated factory would just tripple the figures in each category as 'workers' became engineers at 3000 credits per month, the 'shipyard facilities' became robotic, and administration became supercomputer and programmer dependent ... so 3000 credits per month per worker in labor costs to manufacture 12,000 credits of starship per month per worker.]
So each worker can manufacture 4000 credits of starship per month.
The factory costs 1000 credits per month per worker = 240,000 credits of factory per worker = about 2 dt of factory per worker.
The shipyard imports 1000 credits of materials per month per worker.
Administrator salaries and profit equal about 1000 credits per month per worker = 600 credits per month per worker for administration and 400 credits per month per worker for profit.
So a shipyard capable of manufacturing 1 million credits of starship per month would require 250 workers, 60 MCr worth of shipyard facilities (500 dTons of workspace; 250,000 credits per month for fixed operating costs), 75 Administration/Sales workers at 2000 credits/month average, and generate 100,000 credits per month profit for the owners.
[note that this is a REALLY small shipyard ... like "able to build a single 20 dT launch per year" small.]
So those are the IMTU numbers that I use for all manufacturing.
[EDIT: A highly automated factory would just tripple the figures in each category as 'workers' became engineers at 3000 credits per month, the 'shipyard facilities' became robotic, and administration became supercomputer and programmer dependent ... so 3000 credits per month per worker in labor costs to manufacture 12,000 credits of starship per month per worker.]
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Hans,
A question, it looks like you took the size of the ship being built to determine the following jobs
I know of several ship building facilities that are much smaller than the ships they build.
I do not see the need for a 120,000T to build a 120,000T ship. Unless of course the entire ship yard is enclosed, but even then I would not count the volume of the enclosed space that holds the ship for these figures.
In my mind 1 to 5 ratio (ship yard to ship) might be about right. Of course it might be smaller like 1 to 3 ratio.
As for a stateroom per construction worker, that is a hell of luxury in my mind.
I see that those 2400 ship builders work in shifts of at least 2 shifts. During wartime or emergency, they might work 3 shifts. A shift is 1/3 of the time of a day.
Hope that helps.
Wasn't trying to be vauge in my description, I was doing most of this from memory of way back when. It would have been harder in a couple of days when I do my chemo treatment again.
Dave Chase
A question, it looks like you took the size of the ship being built to determine the following jobs
I know of several ship building facilities that are much smaller than the ships they build.
I do not see the need for a 120,000T to build a 120,000T ship. Unless of course the entire ship yard is enclosed, but even then I would not count the volume of the enclosed space that holds the ship for these figures.
In my mind 1 to 5 ratio (ship yard to ship) might be about right. Of course it might be smaller like 1 to 3 ratio.
As for a stateroom per construction worker, that is a hell of luxury in my mind.
I see that those 2400 ship builders work in shifts of at least 2 shifts. During wartime or emergency, they might work 3 shifts. A shift is 1/3 of the time of a day.
Hope that helps.
Wasn't trying to be vauge in my description, I was doing most of this from memory of way back when. It would have been harder in a couple of days when I do my chemo treatment again.
Dave Chase
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
3rd hand info via Northrup Grumman is that it would be over 150,000 for an aircraft carrier if you count anybody who built any part of the carrier and the people supporting them.
TY.
Yes that was what I meant.
And, AFAIK, the largest aircraft carrier in the world is the USS Ronald Reagan, about 90000 tons displacement (assuming 50% of its volume under water, it would be about 180000 Kl, so its travelelr equivalent would be about 13000 dton.
So viewed, the less than 7000 people Hans calculated to build a 120000 dton (nearly 10 times the US Ronald Reagan) doesn't seem so impressive...
I don't. I count the people who work at the plant where the parts are assembled.
I tried a bit of googling before posting my question, and I did find a descriptipn of a shipyard that had "over a thousand" or perhaps 1200 workers while it was working on three of these ships (the class mentioned at the top of the webpage) at the same time. But I can't figure out what Traveller tonnage the ships are.
Hans
Just for fun ...
a 120,000 dT ship costs 200,000 to 400,000 credits per ton (civilian freighter to civilian liner) or 24 billion credits for a 120,000 dT super-freighter.
Built over 60 months requires 400 million credits per month of shipyard capacity.
Using my base 4000 credits per month per worker yields a workforce of 100,000 workers.
Using a heavily automated shipyard would yield 12,000 credits per month per worker for a workforce of 33 thousand workers.
Cheers.
a 120,000 dT ship costs 200,000 to 400,000 credits per ton (civilian freighter to civilian liner) or 24 billion credits for a 120,000 dT super-freighter.
Built over 60 months requires 400 million credits per month of shipyard capacity.
Using my base 4000 credits per month per worker yields a workforce of 100,000 workers.
Using a heavily automated shipyard would yield 12,000 credits per month per worker for a workforce of 33 thousand workers.
Cheers.
So how does this work IYTU with respect to where a Jump Drive is manufactured?
It begs the obvious question about whether a TL 10 Class A Starport can import TL 15 Power Plants and 'J4' Jump Drives and install them into TL 10 local hulls.
[For your assumptions on what a starship shipyard does, use 0.1 MCr per dT for the cost of a ship with the 4000 or 12,000 credits per worker per month and the shipyard only builds the hull.]
You're overlooking (or in your example in the other thread seriously underestimating) the cost of the parts the shipyard workers assemble. I think much the greater part of the cost of a ship is material cost.
Hans
To take the Kinunir as an example, the power plants were made by Deltic, the jump drive by Shva, and the maneuver drive by Dupree. They were delivered to General Shipyards and assembled. See The Kinunir, p.10 [*]
[*] Note: The reference doesn't say so outright. The above is my interpretation of what the reference says.
I would say that it could by done but that it seldom is, for whatever reason.
The shipyard probably gets the hull plates from a subcontractor.
Hans
I was just using the cost of several common ships divided by their tonnage (from places like The Traveller Book).
Remember that in my example 'manufacturing' includes the manufacture of all of the casting, sub-assemblies, assemblies, major components, etc. ... ending with a finished ship and 'materials' would be billets from the foundry and ingots ready to cast and powdered silicon and metal sheets to feed into the factories located within the shipyard. The 0.1 MCr per dT for a ship's hull seemed the best approximation for assembly without manufacture for calculating the shipyard assemblers as distinct from the Jump Drive manufacturers and other component building industries.
I tend to focus on broad parametric values (like the ratio of labor cost to total cost) because they work as a first approximation across a broad range of specific examples and approximate real world data [which is about all we can hope for when predicting how things are done a millennium into the future]. Labor cost = 25% of total cost could as easily be used to estimate a shipyard as a handgun manufacturer or a bicycle shop. I find the versatility useful.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Newport News Shipbuilding had about 19,000 people before Northrop Grumman Corp. bought them. Don't know what they were working on other than the Ronald Reagan.
The shipyard probably gets the hull plates from a subcontractor.
Hans
As someone who works in the Architecture field, expect a lot of finger pointing and delays when [and not if] the hull plates don't fit together perfectly.
... and the change orders for the cost of adjusting the plates in the field ... and all of the changes that those changes trigger.
It is always the other guy's fault, and here is my bill to fix it. :nonono:
I don't think that, say, the manufacturers of the ship's light fixtures or its furniture can be considered part of the shipyard workforce by any stretch of the imagination. I apply a similar logic to parts that might be so considered, like power plants and drives.
Hans
As someone who works in the Architecture field, expect a lot of finger pointing and delays when [and not if] the hull plates don't fit together perfectly.
... and the change orders for the cost of adjusting the plates in the field ... and all of the changes that those changes trigger.
It is always the other guy's fault, and here is my bill to fix it. :nonono:
If present-day shipyards manufacture their own hull plates I'll be quite willing to change my mind on that point. But do they?
Hans
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