Serious question

[Ben W Bell]

As someone who was kinda meh about T5 as release (I backed the original book etc.) Is there actually any real point to getting this new Kickstarter? I'm a Traveller collector, but T5 was just a bit of a paperweight. What is different this time around?

 

[Ackehece]

Fixed errata, coherent organization, new combat and space combat rules, a new adventure, index, 180 pages of new content.

So it is up to you. You also will automatically (without being a t5.10 sponser) get the updated PDFs as you are an original T5 kickstarter.


So if you want to support do so, but don't feel left out if you do not. :coffeesip:

 

[Daddicus]

As someone who was kinda meh about T5 as release (I backed the original book etc.) Is there actually any real point to getting this new Kickstarter? I'm a Traveller collector, but T5 was just a bit of a paperweight. What is different this time around?

T5's book was a bit of a paperweight, but there was a LOT of great content in it. So, it was (to me) a paperweight mostly because of … weight!

I saw an enormous amount of potential in T5. T5.1 made a huge amount of corrections. That uncovered many issues, but the number and scope of the issues was smaller and less fatal than T5.

I have extremely high hopes for this edition. Many of the changes were discussed right here on this forum. Heck, many of the changes were initiated here. So, I went all in. My hopes for the original T5 were too high, but … GREAT potential. I think this time, it will become the dream game I think it can be.

I missed the first Kickstarter a half-decade ago. I wish I hadn't missed it. In a way, my pledge "corrects" that oversight. It's a gamble. But, no matter what, I want to take that chance. I don't want to miss the chance to help one of my favorite games again.

 

[robapol]

Fixed errata, coherent organization, new combat and space combat rules, a new adventure, index, 180 pages of new content.

So it is up to you. You also will automatically (without being a t5.10 sponser) get the updated PDFs as you are an original T5 kickstarter.


So if you want to support do so, but don't feel left out if you do not. :coffeesip:

This thread poses an excellent question and this answer is interesting.

I was an original T5 backer and despite a few attempts at using it, I just couldn't get it to work. Some of the systems like combat (especially melee) were just plain broken.

I often wonder whether the original actually got play tested.

If combat has been overhauled, and assuming it now works, I could very well be interested...

 

[K.B.]

I also kicked in for the original Kickstarter for several hundred dollars back in 2012 and what I got was highly disappointing and pretty much unusable. I never was able to play it and have been angry about it ever since. I keep getting this "oh, you'll get a revised PDF" email but I wanted a book or I would have paid for the digital only version...

I'm tempted because I LOVED the original Traveller and I still remember when High Guard came out and changed everything for us.... and I'd love to have a solid, updated version of that game but I'm leery that he's not gotten enough feedback and test played this version ---

I really would like to get in on this but I am skeptical.... really skeptical and gun shy.

 

[K.B.]

Update #5

Marc just posted this to the Kickstarter campaign concerning changes, checks and proof-reading this new version:
-------

Inquiring minds want to know.

Soon after release of T5.0, Don McKinney began compiling an errata for the book. That material consisted of typographical fixes, formatting fixes, and rules clarifications, and general suggestions. Much of that was implemented in Traveller 5 dot 09, most notably the addition of an index.

After the release of 5 dot 09, I came to the conclusion that--for a reprint--a reformat to three Big Black Books was called for, and I restructured the material to meet that need.

In addition, I felt that the Personal Combat system and the Space Combat system could be improved, and I devoted some design time to perfecting them. I am especially pleased with both, and I believe they are significant improvements.

I work with a variety of enthusiastic and opinionated Traveller people who review what I write, note problems as well as format and textual errors, and provide constructive criticism. Some could care less about characters, but love ships, and vice versa. Their work has been invaluable to me, and this edition is much better for it.

I have also engaged a variety of lay or casual readers to provide their opinions and suggestions. Some of them have provided only minimal or casual responses, while others have given me detailed feedback. Their work differs from the experts, but also has been invaluable to me, and this edition is much better for it.

As to page counts,

T5 Beta (10 years ago) was 513 pages (plus 9 pages of title and contents),

T5.0 was 647 pages (plus 9 pages of title and contents).

T5.09 was about 731 pages (plus 9 pages of title and contents, and 19 pages of index).

T5.10 is three books with 828 pages:

Book 1 is 264 pages (plus 9 pages of title and contents, and 9 pages of index).

Book 2 is 280 pages (plus 9 pages of title and contents, and 9 pages of index).

Book 3 is 284 pages ((plus 9 pages of title and contents, and 9 pages of index).

Hat I find interesting is that in addition to the increased page counts, each version has shed about 10% of the previous page count as not-working, or uninteresting, or not-necessary.

Considerable examples have been added which help understand many of the processes. These include both narratives (basically combat examples and such) and pre-generated items using the systems.

I have within the last several months) recruited several volunteers to read the final texts, and their assistance has been helpful in making sure corrections have been made, and that the text properly conveys the ideas it is supposed to. In one instance, a proof reader misunderstood the purpose of a table, which prompted me to more fully detail the use of the table.

When I finished T5 dot 09, I was thoroughly immersed in the game rules, and it prompted me to write Agent of the Imperium. That exercise showed me aspects of the Traveller universe that mere rules could not. When you read it (or listen to the audiobook), you will similarly find that you see the Traveller universe in a new light. And by the way, the AudioBook CDROMs include an annotated text of the novel (in PDF) with 300+ footnotes providing details that may not be obvious, but are nonetheless important to understanding the OTU.

Is this edition perfect? No. Is it a substantial improvement over the previous? Yes. More playable, more coherent, and better than before.

 

[mike wightman]

What worries me is some of the 'inner circle' being on record as saying they have only skimmed it.

If I had the pdf I would have done a lot more than skim it...

 

[aramis]

What worries me is some of the 'inner circle' being on record as saying they have only skimmed it.

If I had the pdf I would have done a lot more than skim it...

The parts I've been interested in were fixed in prior drafts, and I contributed lots of math work on those. A skim to note that they aren't de-clarified was all that was needed for those.

I don't have an opinion on much of the text, because I won't be using most of the text. 90% or more of the text is mechanics explication; under 10% is setting...

 

[Almuric]

Examples

What worries me is some of the 'inner circle' being on record as saying they have only skimmed it.

If I had the pdf I would have done a lot more than skim it...

What would be really helpful and confidence building would be a post to the kickstarter by Marc or an associate that was a walk through of how a simple gunfight or the like works on a round by round basis for, say, two combat rounds. Nothing complex, but show all the die rolls, etc.

Round 1: Guy #1 with a gauss pistol and, say, mesh armor, fires at someone wearing an armored vacc suit or similar gear. Guy in vacc suit is wounded but rushes forward.
Round 2: Vacc suit guys attacks pistol guy with cutlass, who must defend himself.

Something like that, but showing the game mechanics and that combat is no longer broken. Should be easy to do. A few similar posts of this nature for other systems.

 

[Almuric]

Is this edition perfect? No. Is it a substantial improvement over the previous? Yes. More playable, more coherent, and better than before.

Here's a question for people working with Marc and backing the kickstarter.

Has this particular version of Traveller5 _ I mean the working files _ actually been used by playtesters, Marc, or others in a real campaign or adventures?

Has it been passed to people who have used it to not just read the rules, but actually used it from the perspective of generating a subsector, creating an adventure, and then running that adventure, containing things like combat, trading, etc., all from scratch, over a period of at least a mini-campaign lasting a couple of weeks, or ideally, a longer period?

A lot of Traveller material (post LBB, actually) seems to be written by experienced writers, but it doesn't seem to have been actually written from the perspective of the Referee who is going to have to use the stuff to quickly make an adventure with on Friday evening before the Saturday game session. The original LBB systems worked well in this respect; the Mongoose versions aren't bad, and GURPS at least had the advantage that GURPS was a mature system. But things like T4 and T5 seemed to have a sense of being ideas sounded and read well, but was Marc and the testers actually playing them as a coherent draft in real games?

If they were - and if Marc or close associates has had a nice house campaign that has been puttering along for several months happily playing these rules - I am in. If they are rules that were sent out, read by people in isolation, but no one really ran them as a unified set, I am skeptical...

 

[aramis]

Craig, the most prolific of the inner circle posters from what I've seen, has been running T5 for years. Including a game on the board.

Prior to his death, Aramais, aka Greg Lee, aka Marc's legal counsel, was also running T5. He, also, was a very avid participant in the discussions.

I've restricted myself to sections I can backport to MegaTraveller and/or T20. I've generated systems using T5.01 and T5.09. I've done much math to realize that the 5.0 and 5.01 hop, skip, leap, bound, vault and such needed a few changes to avoid breaking the Trade rules badly. Marc implemented those by 5.09. I have used hop drives in play, albeit not in T5. I've even generated a few starsystems.

I know that Robject has been doing lots of ship-building using T5, as has Craig.
Ken (Sup. 4) was running test combats using T5 and engaged in a long and involved revision.

So, yes, there has been some actual play involved, and I know that I don't know that there aren't more; I know these are minima.

 

[The Pakkrat]

Actual Play in T5.09

I have been playtesting my introductory miniseries utilizing T5.09 titled Nine-Tenths of the Law, a Session-0 through Session-4 treasure hunt set during the Rebellion and functioning as a continuation sequel to The Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook. Volunteers from the COTI Discord have signed up and played three sessions until now, (05/10/2019). Thus far, the players of this miniseries have found valued clarity in Character Generation, Equipment, Makers, Starship Construction and Operation, QREBS, World building, Trade and Commerce and Personal Combat.
My players have unanimously elected to skip the Personals chapter as they trusted me the Referee and a player to portray aliens accurately without the need for guidance of that chapter.
While I have not picked up T5.10 yet, I am a quiver with anticipation to see what each of the Black Books have fine tuned for the fans of Traveller⁵.
Has the average Referee seen successful use of T5.09 as a stand alone game? I have.
Maybe I'm just weird. Or Vargr. Or have an acute understanding of Traveller since the early 1990s.
Your Mileage May Vary

Live via satellite, this is the Pakkrat.

 

[Ackehece]

Nope Pak, many of us are capable of running games now in T5.9, 5.0 was a tool kit 5.9 was closer to a game and 5.1 refined combat again to make it better. (Supplement 4 needs to chime in I think)

 

[whartung]

What worries me is some of the 'inner circle' being on record as saying they have only skimmed it.

If I had the pdf I would have done a lot more than skim it...

The parts I've been interested in were fixed in prior drafts, and I contributed lots of math work on those. A skim to note that they aren't de-clarified was all that was needed for those.

It's a huge book. I think it's hard for anyone to approach it in detail, especially as a casual fan. I can only hope that folks with different interests are looking in to it to cover the bulk of the material indecently. "Many hands make light work."

 

[Almuric]

Good to hear that the latest versions have gotten extensive "actual play" experience!

 

[aramis]

K'... addressing a few questions up thread...
Looking through personal combat.
I can follow it.

Damned whiffy for melee... you're going to need the minimum success rule.

Shooting combat

I can follow it.

So, yes, it's improved drastically over 5.01.

in re Maneuver options

Maneuver	Gravitic	Rocket	HEPlaR	Orion1	Orion2	Orion3	Thruster	NAFAL
M	G	R	H	O1	O2	O3	T	N

 

[Qstor2]

As someone who was kinda meh about T5 as release (I backed the original book etc.) Is there actually any real point to getting this new Kickstarter? I'm a Traveller collector, but T5 was just a bit of a paperweight.

I like to collect Traveller stuff too but the "paperweight" size threw me off as I mentioned a number of times. Plus I wasn't interested in so much of a new rule system as setting material.

I didn't mind T4 back in the day, if T5 is based on T4, frankly I don't understand why the main book can't be "pared" down to 350 pages or so. The star ships and other materials can be in another book as well as expanded referee materials.

The main T4 book wasn't 900 pages. If Marc wants to expand Traveller to a new generation of games a 900 page book is the wrong way to do it.

 

[ThornPlutonius]

I like to collect Traveller stuff too but the "paperweight" size threw me off as I mentioned a number of times. Plus I wasn't interested in so much of a new rule system as setting material.

I didn't mind T4 back in the day, if T5 is based on T4, frankly I don't understand why the main book can't be "pared" down to 350 pages or so. The star ships and other materials can be in another book as well as expanded referee materials.

The main T4 book wasn't 900 pages. If Marc wants to expand Traveller to a new generation of games a 900 page book is the wrong way to do it.

T5.1 is now three books of approximately 300 pages each and will come in a slip-case. They have the same names as the original LBBs, but much more detailed content and are no longer digest size.

 

[Timerover51]

As someone who was kinda meh about T5 as release (I backed the original book etc.) Is there actually any real point to getting this new Kickstarter? I'm a Traveller collector, but T5 was just a bit of a paperweight. What is different this time around?

If you look through the T5 Forum, you will see that at times I have been a pain in the neck to Marc on T5. However, I have still order the full set of books, along with everything else, as there is a lot of very good material in it, and I am hoping that T5.1 will have it better arranged and laid out.

The ThingMaker idea was one thing that was good, but poorly implemented with the development of the standard product spread over 3 prior Tech Levels. I am interested in seeing how that plays out in the new version.