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Sensors..... MT vs. TNE....

kaladorn

SOC-14 1K
Okay, I own MT. I love MT. I don't love MT space combat. Enter Brilliant Lances. Woohoo! I say.
Then I start looking at the details of integrations.... differing skill sytem - surmountable. Differing movement/initiative - that's the whole point!. Differing weapons stuff - manageable. Then we hit the big one. THE SENSORS.

In MT, I can buy up to (IIRC) system range active EMS. In MT, I can buy 2 parsec ranged passive EMS. Then we go to BL.... the passives are a *lot* less capable than the active systems, and nothing approaches 2 parsecs in range.

So, suggestions on how to reconcile this without destroying all the MT ship designs?

And furthermore, which makes sense? Are passives actually shorter ranged or much moreso than actives? That whole point seems to be predicated on different assumptions in BL and in MT. Which is closer to what actually might be reality?

<Sigh> I knew this would be a thankless process before I started it, but I wanted a tabletop wargame for MT space combat that actually made it a bit like a sub hunt and wasn't as abstract (presented more tactical challenge and choice) as MT space combat.

Thought?
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
In MT, I can buy up to (IIRC) system range active EMS. In MT, I can buy 2 parsec ranged passive EMS. Then we go to BL.... the passives are a *lot* less capable than the active systems, and nothing approaches 2 parsecs in range.

So, suggestions on how to reconcile this without destroying all the MT ship designs?

And furthermore, which makes sense? Are passives actually shorter ranged or much moreso than actives? That whole point seems to be predicated on different assumptions in BL and in MT. Which is closer to what actually might be reality?
<snip>
I was really hoping someone more knowledgeable on TNE mechanics was going to answer this one. I'll give it a shot though I admit that I use a homebrew version that takes elements of CT, MT, & TNE. But I digress.

Supposedly, TNE is closer to reality. The lower ranges on passive sensors is due to the fact that resolution is only going to be as good as the size of your sensor antenna/dish. Think of it this way, one needs a decent sized telescope to make anything out when looking at planets. I believe that the same principle applies. You're going to have to drive around with a huge dish on your ship if you want to reproduce MT sensor ranges with TNE stuff. And huge things sticking off of your starship are going to be easier to hit than small things (at least by TNE rules) so it's all a bit of a double edged sword.

I've argued on the TNE ml that by 3rd Imp TLs technology should've advanced far enough that the whole ship could be thought of as a sensor array. Smaller sensors placed all over the hull of the ship could be linked together to form one really big unit. After all, isn't that how interferometry works? We're doing the same thing now with telescopes and we know the 3I was doing it with Longbow.
 
Originally posted by DED:


Supposedly, TNE is closer to reality. The lower ranges on passive sensors is due to the fact that resolution is only going to be as good as the size of your sensor antenna/dish. Think of it this way, one needs a decent sized telescope to make anything out when looking at planets. I believe that the same principle applies. You're going to have to drive around with a huge dish on your ship if you want to reproduce MT sensor ranges with TNE stuff. And huge things sticking off of your starship are going to be easier to hit than small things (at least by TNE rules) so it's all a bit of a double edged sword.

I've argued on the TNE ml that by 3rd Imp TLs technology should've advanced far enough that the whole ship could be thought of as a sensor array. Smaller sensors placed all over the hull of the ship could be linked together to form one really big unit. After all, isn't that how interferometry works? We're doing the same thing now with telescopes and we know the 3I was doing it with Longbow.
Hmm, you lost me there, but I may be a bit dense today ;) You start off with a good explanation of the trade offs between range and resolution as I understand it but then go on to wonder why an array of small sensors (less power/range) spread over the whole hull (bigger synthetic aperature better resolution) isn't the same as one big sensor? If I have it right.

Anyway as I understand FF&S the sensors are basically all synthetic aperature using the hull "diameter" for the absolute maximum of the allowed sensor diameter and there are no big dishes or antenna to worry about (unless you use a folding/towed array), and that the sensors are optimized for the "best" strategic trade off of range vs resolution (a simplification for game reasons).

A more detailed system would have you chose a sensor size (for range), and then how many and the total synthetic aperture (for resolution). The resolution would give you your base difficulty and that would be modified by the difference of the base range and the target range. Naturally damage would affect the resolution first (barring a crippling strike at the computer that was collecting and interpolating the data) until you were left with just one "eye/ear" of your base range and simple resolution (i.e. no sythetic aperature at all).

Anyway, like I said I may be missing something so I'm not sure how much this adds to the discussion
 
I am of the opinon that the sensor ranges given in traveller are rather silly. Most vessels simply won't need such power.

The best that one could realistically do with ships is to combine the efforts (interferometry) of a temporarily linked and not moving fleet when at a reasonably close range to each other.
 
You're lucky I stumbled into here and saw this...

As was stated, the resolution of a sensor is determined by its diameter; the bigger across it is, the tinier the objects that can be seen. This translates into seeing a small ship at range X and seeing a large ship at a farther range Y.

Sensativity is a function of how much SURFACE AREA the sensor has devoted to seeing things, and TL has an effect on this, to a point. Theoretically, you cannot see anything that is quieter than the background, but there are ways around this.

So say we can barely detect a 1000 ton ship at a range of 10 LS (Light-seconds). Say further our ship has a diameter of 30 meters (same as the target ship, in fact) and we have devoted all 2800 square meters of our hull to it. Well, we're really only going to get to use about a third of that, so that's about 900 m^2.

Altogether, we have to gather a picowatt of EM to see the target. (That's 10^-12 watts, or -90dBm. go here to learn more about decibels if you don't know what they REALLY are.)

If our ships move apart, we will not be collecting enough energy to see the enemy ship. We will also not be able to see it show up as a pixel on our screen. It's too small and too faint. (I did no math to come up with this; I'm simply SAYING that this is the range at which JUST enough energy was coming back and the ship was JUST close enough to see.)

Let's double the range to 20 LS. The other ship is 1/4 the apparent size it was before. Since we were at both of our limits before, we have to do two things to see the ship now.

First, we need to make our sensor wider. We can deploy our folding array. It needs to be twice as big, or 60 meters.

Second, we have to have more surface area, because even though it's now big enough to be seen, it's too faint to be seen. We need 4 times the surface area for our dish, or about 3600 m^2.

Alternately, the target ship could put out 4 times as much energy. We could either pump up our active sensor to hit it with more energy, or they could run their reactor up to emit more energy (heat), or maybe they could deploy THEIR folding array and expose more surface area.

There's another kind of detection that is useful for seeing contacts over the course of time. Basically, you gather light, and eventually you gather enough to see where some one is/was. The 2 parsec range from MT is along the lines of this. It can't actually pick up ships at that range, at least not with any accuracy. The information would be 6.5 years old! You can look up information about WW2 submarine actions, and see a similar process in action. (Reading the manual for the old game "Up Periscope", or perhaps another sub simulation, would reveal this to you as well.)

Anyway, without getting into a whole lot of formulas and taking up a lot of posting space (and really, I might want to draw a picture to help), suffice it to say that it's not a simple matter to pick up targets and shoot at them successfully.

There is a set of detection rules for T4 that's pretty good; you'll have to download them from I THINK freelance traveller (no promises). I did some work on making my own detection system (unfinished) before T4 came out that used powers of 2 for the tiers, because TNE's tasks are centered around making something twice as easy/hard as the next task level. The T4 approach is much less granular - it uses powers of 10 instead - and I didn't care for that, but it is pretty well thought out and seemed to me to be pretty accurate.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
Hmm, you lost me there, but I may be a bit dense today ;)
No. More likely it's my inability to clearly explain something that I'm not sure I even understand.

You start off with a good explanation of the trade offs between range and resolution as I understand it but then go on to wonder why an array of small sensors (less power/range) spread over the whole hull (bigger synthetic aperature better resolution) isn't the same as one big sensor? If I have it right.
True. My argument was why use some giant, easy-to-hit-and-damage folding array if the whole ship could be considered a sensor array in itself.

Anyway as I understand FF&S the sensors are basically all synthetic aperature using the hull "diameter" for the absolute maximum of the allowed sensor diameter and there are no big dishes or antenna to worry about (unless you use a folding/towed array), and that the sensors are optimized for the "best" strategic trade off of range vs resolution (a simplification for game reasons).
Now that's different from how I interpreted FF&S. I thought you couldn't pick up anything without the big ol' folding array. I'm not saying I'm right in my interpretation of the sensor rules. Far from it. (I'm still trying to figure out alot of FF&S.) And my attempts to get this clarified on the TNE ml ended in failure. :confused: Maybe it was my inability to translate my thoughts into a coherent question.

<snip>
Anyway, like I said I may be missing something so I'm not sure how much this adds to the discussion
Like I said, I'd been hoping that someone more knowledgable about this than myself would've answered Kaladorn's questions. I decided to give it a try anyway.
 
Originally posted by DED:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Hmm, you lost me there, but I may be a bit dense today ;)
No. More likely it's my inability to clearly explain something that I'm not sure I even understand.</font>[/QUOTE]Well we're both in that boat together then
So my own interpretation and speculation is somewhat suspect too ;) I'm just an interested amateur/Jack of all Trades, and you know what they say 'bout Jack.

Originally posted by DED:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Anyway as I understand FF&S the sensors are basically all synthetic aperature using the hull "diameter" for the absolute maximum of the allowed sensor diameter and there are no big dishes or antenna to worry about (unless you use a folding/towed array), and that the sensors are optimized for the "best" strategic trade off of range vs resolution (a simplification for game reasons).
Now that's different from how I interpreted FF&S. I thought you couldn't pick up anything without the big ol' folding array. I'm not saying I'm right in my interpretation of the sensor rules. Far from it. (I'm still trying to figure out alot of FF&S.) And my attempts to get this clarified on the TNE ml ended in failure. :confused: Maybe it was my inability to translate my thoughts into a coherent question.</font>[/QUOTE]Could be I'm misremembering it, I'll check later and see if I'm confused. As for help from the TNE ml its probably hit and miss. You hope you state your request such that it gets a reply and hope the best person to answer it actually sees it :rolleyes:

Originally posted by DED:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:

Anyway, like I said I may be missing something so I'm not sure how much this adds to the discussion
Like I said, I'd been hoping that someone more knowledgable about this than myself would've answered Kaladorn's questions. I decided to give it a try anyway. </font>[/QUOTE]Quite, and its a pity. I know we have at least one working astronomer here who might have the best knowledge of the subject but at least your attempt reignighted the thread and got me to throw some more confusion in and TheDS seems to be speaking with some authority on the subject so all in all, well done on your part I'd say :D
 
My single largest curiosity is probably a case of:

I'm using the MT ship designs and other rules (mostly). How do I extend these to include a more tactical space combat feel (like brilliant lances) without *badly* breaking the designs or requiring all sorts of things those designs don't have (ie TNE folding arrays)?

That's a tough one.

Also, there is the distinction of active versus passive. If I'm not missing my guess, the balance of which system was more capable changed between MT and TNE (IIRC, in the former, passives are more capable, and in the latter, actives).

So, which is truly more capable? I would have thought passives, principally because an active sensor has the problem that they emit a certain amount of energy, but it then dissipates (in a case where you don't know roughly where the enemy is, so you're scanning all over) in three dimensions, thus leading to a drop off by the square or cube of distance (which is pretty nasty!). At some range, actives are going to boil down to roughly equally capable as passives because your own emitted energy will cease to play a role. So you're left just with your detector, and I assume both have about the same sensitivity of detector system.

So it seems MT had that part right. Or am I wrong for some unobvious reason?

I like Brilliant Lances, but it uses to many systems that are integral to TNE but missing in MT (Fire directors, folding arrays, G-turns of fuel, etc) that it isn't an easy conversion.

It may be I just have to sit down and write my own from scratch.
 
Modern detection systems use entirely different elements for active and passive detections. This means the dish taht receives the reflection from your active sensor is different than the one that receives energy from other units' sensors. And, of course, there's a sensor for each spectra. The visual sensors don't see radar, for instance.

With the gigantic amounts of time and distance involved in space detection, even your active sensors are going to return weak signals, so you are going to want to use your passive EMS to pick up your own Active EMS signal bounces. An Active sensor will tehrefore actually be just a transmitter, since the passive sensor picks up everything anyway.

What the range of things actually being detected is, is going to depend on the amount of energy hitting the detection element. At a given distance, the enemy ship may be putting out a lot of energy, and you're just barely picking up the minimal picowatt to see it. Your illuminator (active transmitter) must be twice as powerful as the energy you're seeing from the enemy ship in order to get a return reflection of the same amount of energy. That pulse you sent out has to travel there AND back. That's twice the distance.

Any number of factors can influence how much energy gets back to your receiver. Space dust, stealthing (active and passive), power putput of the enemy ship, whether it's firing its drive or not, if your sensor is operating at the right temperature, vibrations from your ship's drive, and of course the skill of the operator and overall quality of the electronics.

So it's not easy to boil down to something simple, if you want it realistic. That's why they went and made up numbers like they did. They supposed the enemy ship would always have a certain output ratio (Y Mw per size class), your sensor would be of certain sizes (they specified diameters for you to choose from), and a number of other things.

It is certainly possible with a 240m array to pick up objects several light years away, given enough time. That's another problem; some tracks are so faint that you have to sit there and wait for your sensor to collect enough energy to be able to see something, and other times you just see it. Think of a camera. In low light, you have to leave the shutter open longer than you do in bright light to get a readable picture. Active sensors always give you a yes or no. Either they detect it or they don't.

To figure out some realistic detection chances, here are SOME of the things you need to know:

</font>
  • Range</font>
  • diameter of dish</font>
  • surface area of target</font>
  • reflectivity of target (stealthing)</font>
  • power output of target</font>
  • drive output of target</font>
  • amount of energy in your illumination pulse</font>
  • minimum energy required for detection (I've said 1 picowatt in the past, tech may change this)</font>
  • how much surface area you've devoted to your detector</font>
That's a LOT of stuff to know. Some of it applies to passive only, some to active only, and most to both. SOME of this stuff can be computed in advance. Things like the reflectivity of your hull, how much detecter area you have, and its diameter. Others can change, like how much power you're putting into your pulse, whether and how much energy comes from the drives or reactor. The orientation of the target matters too. Detecting a coin face-on is much easier than edge-on.

Now this can be simiplified a little, so you're not using unwieldy formulas every turn for every ship. You can either go the T4 route and use powers of 10, and their system is mostly complete as it is, or you can make your own system to take all these things into account, and use powers of 2.

Either of these approaches uses logarithms, and the log values are simply ADDED to each other. Very simple, once you've made all your charts, and your charts are easy to make, since you just multiply numbers by 2 or 10, and assign them sequential values. (eg, 1=1, 2=2, 4=3, 8=4, 16=5, etc. The formula for THAT progression is simply Z=2^(n-1).)

As I stated before, I started making one of these myself, using powers of 2, since that's the basis of TNE task system, and found that it works quite nicely, once you've done the hard work of the design. In play, it's fairly simple. Your ship will have a few more ratings for detectability, depending on what actions its performing. (Head-on is usually a low-detection profile, while evading fire will eventually show the largest facing, giving the largest reflection.)

Unfortunately, I didn't finish it, and don't have all the pieces available to reconstruct it, nor the time to work on it anyway. (Once I saw the T4 method was nearly identical, wel, what point to rebuilding unless I really needed the extra granularity?)
 
Glad I could help!

I found some of my notes I made a couple years ago on this, and it seems I made a slight misrepresentation.

Doubling range does NOT double the power requirement. For passive sensors, double range quadruples power requirement. For active sensors, double range must be overcome with 16x power! Here's the calculations I did; hopefully not too hard to follow:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Assumptions for the examples below:
Target ship has a volume of 10,000 kl and is spherical in shape.
All surface area facing within 45 deg. of the detecting craft will be detectable to it (thus 1/6 of the surface of the sphere reflects energy toward the detector).
1 Light-second = 300,000 km, or 10 space hexes. 1 Mw of energy = +90 dBm.
The receiver/detector can register a signal strength of 1 picowatt; -90 dBm.
The active signal is not aimed at all; it travels in all directions.
The reflected signal travels in a cone with a total angle of 90 degrees, so that it is 6 times stronger than if it were radiated in all directions, because it is concentrated onto 1/6 the area of space.
The receiver/detector dish has a surface area of 100 m^2. (diameter is 11.28 m)
There is nothing interfering with the signal; in a vacuum with no jamming or excessive noise and the target is not masking his signature.

. Calculation information:
. Volume of target: 10,000 kl.
. Diameter of target: 26.73 m.
. Total surface area of target: 2244.646 m^2.
. Surface area of target available for reflecting signals: 374.11 m^2

Calculating the return fractions:
Example #1:
. Distance: .1 light second. Full sphere radiation.
. Area of space at target's distance of .1 LS: 11.31 e9 km^2, or e15 m^2 (30M ^2 * 4pi)
. fraction of signal reflected: 33.08e-15. (avail surf [374] / total space area [11.3e15])
. Fraction of signal making it back to the detector dish, taking into account that the dish is 100 m^2 and the signal strength is focused into 1/6 the area rather than spread in all directions: 53.05e-15. (antenna area [100] / 1/6 total space area [11.3e15 / 6])
. Both fractions multiplied together for a total fraction of the energy returning: 1.75e-27
. Sensor energy required to achieve minimum detection @ 1 pw: 569.83 e6 Mw


Example #2:
. Distance: 1 light second. Full sphere radiation.
. Area of space at target's distance of 1 LS: 1131 e9 km^2, or e15 m^2 (300M ^2 * 4pi)
. fraction of signal reflected: 330.8 e-18. (avail surf [374] / total space area [1131 e15])
. Fraction of signal making it back to the detector dish, taking into account that the dish is 100 m^2 and the signal strength is focused into 1/6 the area rather than spread in all directions: 530.5e-18. (antenna area [100] / 1/6 total space area [1131 e15/ 6])
. Both fractions multiplied together for a total fraction of the energy returning: 175e-27
. Sensor energy required to achieve minimum detection @ 1 pw: 5.698 e12 Mw
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The differences between the two examples is #1 is .1 LS and #2 is 1 LS (10 times further away). For both I assumed -90dBm was the minimum amount of energy that had to be collected to see the target. You'll see that BOTH examples require power output that would embarass a spinal-mount meson cannon!

From this it is easy to see that reasonable power levels (modern ships use no more than 10MW, or +100dBm, and can see things somewhere around -90dBm, maybe lower) for your active sensor will require a few things.

You need a dish with more than 100 square meters of area. Each quadrupling of area will double its sensativity.

You need to focus your sensor beam. A 90 degree beam can cover the sky in 6 seconds, and allows you to see a little farther. (6 times the energy, so would that be about double the range?) Tighter focusing allows you to see farther, but takes a lot longer to sweep the sky; that's why you have Lidar; to maintain targeting solutions, not to find stuff.

You need your enemy to promise to use ships bigger than 10,000kl (about 800 dTon?). Each doubling of diameter (octupling of volume) will quadruple your chance of seeing it (because surface area is quadrupled), so you can see things about 2-3 times further.

You need to get your enemy to use lots of high-powered reactors and engines. This way, the energy travels only one way, and range has less of an effect.

You need to make sure the enemy never uses any kind of stealthing. The examples assumed perfect reflection. A properly stealthed hull might return 1% of the energy, which makes it really hard to see.

You need to bump your technology up as high as possible. I would suppose that -90dBm is TL8 (modern), and that detection capability goes up -10dBm each TL thereafter, until it hits whatever the bottom limit allowed by physics (I guessed -150dBm at TL14). That's an attowatt (10^-18).

So anyway, which type of sensor is best depends on if you've got a ton of power you can dump into it, or if the enemy is running their reactor on full blast. Ships are bound to mount sensors over as much hull as possible, and probably carry enormous folding arrays as well.
 
it occurs to me after reading about the new SIRTIF telescope that these things also need to be kept cool in order to be effective.

this is an infrared telescope...thus heat from the structures interferes with imaging.
 
TheDS makes a lot of useful points. I'm aware of many of these issues as several friends work in Naval ESM technologies.

One interesting question: A spherical target would seem to bounce rays impacting at the equator back 100% and onces that hit further out would bounce back at some angle (I guess angle of incidence equals angle of reflection might apply here). I think you've simplified this to a 90 degree cone.... I wonder how close this is to the actual situation. Probably close enough for government work.

I'm guessing this simplification is accurate:

For some power level P, and some detection threshold D, there is a range R where the amount of reflected energy from our target drops to insignificance. That is to say, below that range, an active sensor will have a worthile contribution, as the reflected energy will be useful to the detector. Beyond that range, the reflected energy will be so little as to make the active system no more useful than a completely passive system.

Now, obviously masking, cross section and hull configuration (and might I say, design geometry), have a profound effect on the amount of reflected energy from the target.

And the amount of power applied at the transmitter, the focusing cone of the sensor, etc. will play a big role. Also the sensor's virtual (not necessarily actual, if some concept like an FM coil exists for other bands) area will be a key factor too. I'd think deploying a small constellation of 1m spherical sensors in a globe around my ship wouldn't increase my reflected signature much, but it would sure extend my virtual antennae surface (and provide a bit of parallax, though not much). This would be a synthetic array of sorts.

But then we get into interesting points such as how does hull configuration affect this, how does one use existing MT designs within the context of this discussion (they have no folding arrays, etc), etc.

And the game lacks a concept of focusing a sensor in one area at the cost of giving away sensitivity elsewhere. The game(s) (MT or TNE) have no idea that locking up multiple targets on vastly different tracks is a nasty feat. If I try to focus my sensor to put more power into an area of space over the course of a turn to get more return, that means I can't be pointing elsewhere. Unless I have multiple emitter heads, and lots and lots of power. But the game doesn't track this kind of thing.

It seems to me we have:

Passives:
Can scan targets a long way away given time
Don't give you away
Can be focused, but doing so would cut resolution in other directions
Subject to target geometry, emissions/masking,
power output, etc.

Actives:
Can scan targets at a short range in a 360 sweep
Can scan targets further away (but not as far
as passives) with a reduced sweep (focused)
Subject to target geometry, output, etc.
Subject to own power output limits

Generally, given a chance, at any range below
the point where reflected energy ceases to be
significant, actives will give more information
faster (due to a greater signal return). But
they would tend to be used in a focused manner
after a more generalized scan was done.

Now, having this general model in hand, the trick
is to know how this should translate into a set
of space combat rules such that the MT ship
construction rules and all the existing designs
aren't badly broken or missing key components...

That sounds like a fair bit of a challenge,
methinks.
 
ONe thing that occured to me:

Nuke weapons in a near miss would light up a region of space much like flares would on a battlefield...and these would not necessarily reveal the presence of a future attacker like a direct active scan would.
 
I don't have anything I can link to, but I recall from a program on Stealth Technology that rounded objects will reflect things back in all directions. Very severe angles are required to reflect radar away from the receiver, and even then, the joints are still something you have to worry about, as they almost always return something. You must also be VERY careful not to have ANY 90 degree angles, as these will bounce a signal right back at the receiver.

One other thing of note: Radar, being part of the EMS, acts like a wave. For a demonstration of what kind of lunacy I mean, get yourself a flash light, and on a dark night in a dark room, shine your flashlight on a wall. You will notice that by moving the spot around, you hardly ever will be able to trace a STRAIGHT line from the light, to the spot on the wall, and back to your eyes. However, you ARE able to see the spot, and you are also able to see other objects in the room that are not being directly illuminated by the beam.

If you have any shiny metal fixtures, you may be able to shine the light on them, and see that it reflects back toward you especially well along the edges, particularly when the beam-line should reach your eyes.

Now go into the bathroom, or some other place where you have a large mirror mounted handily, and shine the light on the mirror. You can see that the flatness of the mirror reflects the beam, but again, you are STILL able to see more than just what the beam hits.

If you look straight at your light, it's bright. If you shine it at a mirror into your eyes, and you've got it the right distance so that the light SHOULD be just as bright, it is actually a little dimmer. A mirror is NOT a perfect reflector.

However, metal is a pretty good reflector of radar, and in my example, I assumed perfect reflection. In actuallity, it will be a little less than perfect, BUT you are very likely to get reflection off of 1/3 to 1/2 of the hull's surface area. A box shape would reflect only one face if that face were aimed right back at the transmitter, but if looking at a corner, you'd probably see 1/2 the surface area. I go and assume that the wave property of the EMS is more important than the particle property (worst case scenario?).

How do we design stealthy ships (not counting careful construction and radar-absorbing and heat-suppressing)? A sphere is the "worst" possible shape, since the enemy always sees half its surface area, no matter which way it points. So we want something long and preferably shaped like a needle. Head-on, there will be very little surface area to reflect, and hopefully some of that is going to be bounced away by the oblique angle (but I assume not in my studies). A good 10:1 ship will have only about 5% of its surface area facing the radar if it's head on, or as much as 50% if it is maneuvering/evading.

Since long ships make for good weapons platforms (REALLY long PAWS/Meson barrels), this means you can make a really powerful spinal mount gun. It's terrifyingly easy to make your ship one great big gun by doing this. Further, if you consider that the frontal armor is sloped, you can take advantage of the added thickness that sloping brings. The vehicle design section of FFS shows that a 30 degree slope increases armor thickness by about 50% (actually closer to 40%) and a 60% angle will about double it (100%). Of course, for a 10:1 needle, this slope is likely to be closer to 75 degrees, which is a nearly 300% increase in armor thickness! (Disregard the absurd space requirements listed; the actual volume is equal to the increase in armor's apparent thickness; that is, a 15cm plate, 1m by 1m at 75 degrees will act like a 60cm plate 1m by .25m at 0 degrees, and will take up the volume of a 15 cm plate that was 1m by 4m. You do NOT lose half your vehicle's volume, you simply increase the volume the armor is taking up by the amount of additional protection the slope infers.)

Now this applies only if we're head on. Makes for really great first strikes, if you manage to not get detected, and even allows you to withstand counterfire until you get flanked.

If we're maneuvering, our ship is 3 times longer than an equal-volumed sphere, and also has about 50% more surface area (I forget the exact numbers, but these are close). So when you turn, you do it at 1/3 the speed. In MT-terms, you have drastically reduced your agility. Actually, MT doesn't quite grasp it all, but it has a leg on on TNE, which abandoned Agility, believing the line that 6G = 6G.

By that I mean that large ships and small ships can both perform 6G acceleration, so it follows that lumbering war wagons are a fallacy, right? Wrong. The Titanic can sail a LOT faster than a rowboat, but I guarantee you the rowboat is going to turn a lot faster. In regards to evading enemy fire, turning is everything! (Okay, high G's are pretty important too.)

A ship that can change its heading 3 times faster than another has a SIGNIFICANT combat advantage. It all has to do with centrifugal force. If the C-force exterted on the extremities of the craft exceed the designed G-rating, the ship flies apart! Thus large ships ARE lumbering giants that are very easy to hit, because you can easily predict where they will be, and if you're within a couple lightseconds (and have perfectly accurate lasers) you can hit them every time.

A long ship's extra surface area not only means it's easier to see when it's not on an approach profile, it's also easier to hit. Therefore it would seem that longships are just as crazy as short ships. It turns out that each has its advantages and disadvantages, and you choose the hull shape based on what the mission is, like anything else.
 
Originally posted by TheDS:
Since long ships make for good weapons platforms (REALLY long PAWS/Meson barrels), this means you can make a really powerful spinal mount gun. It's terrifyingly easy to make your ship one great big gun by doing this. Further, if you consider that the frontal armor is sloped, you can take advantage of the added thickness that sloping brings. The vehicle design section of FFS shows that a 30 degree slope increases armor thickness by about 50% (actually closer to 40%) and a 60% angle will about double it (100%). Of course, for a 10:1 needle, this slope is likely to be closer to 75 degrees, which is a nearly 300% increase in armor thickness! (Disregard the absurd space requirements listed; the actual volume is equal to the increase in armor's apparent thickness; that is, a 15cm plate, 1m by 1m at 75 degrees will act like a 60cm plate 1m by .25m at 0 degrees, and will take up the volume of a 15 cm plate that was 1m by 4m. You do NOT lose half your vehicle's volume, you simply increase the volume the armor is taking up by the amount of additional protection the slope infers.)
Two key points here:

1) When you design a modern vehicle, you don't just magically get to items into volume. Items have their own shape and size. Part of the loss of volume might reflect this reality: You may have 1 kl of remaining volume, but if it is 1mm high, I may not be able to get my radio set into it.

2) "Effective armour" is both a product of sloping AND the type of the attack. The degree to which sloping increases armour is greater for some types of projectile/attack than for other types.

By that I mean that large ships and small ships can both perform 6G acceleration, so it follows that lumbering war wagons are a fallacy, right? Wrong. The Titanic can sail a LOT faster than a rowboat, but I guarantee you the rowboat is going to turn a lot faster. In regards to evading enemy fire, turning is everything! (Okay, high G's are pretty important too.)
Though not disagreeing, I'll point out the water comparison has some issues. Part of the reason large boats can go faster is related to the effort of displacing water from their path. This is not analogous to space. Furthermore, their turning ability also is hindered by water. So the comparison does not, entirely, 'hold water', if you'll pardon the pun.

Your comments about centrifugal forces I agree with. You've failed to explicitly mention torques (which would be a big issue).

If I can accelerate at a certain rate (for any given mass, there is a force which will produce this), then the mass I'm accelerating isn't relevant except insofar as it increases the force required. In Trav, we rate ships by their acceleration. So a 1G accelerating shuttle and a 1G accelerating UberBattleWagon (UBW) have the same acceleration. Assuming equal efficiencies of sidewise thrust and no medium to oppose, both can rotate equally easily (assuming that neither exceeds the centrifugal threshold you mention and flies apart). So, it is possible for a small ship (due to those centrifugal forces, or more particularly the lesser amount of them) to sustain a higher 'turn rate' than a larger ship, but as long as both ships are under the threshold of failure, an equal rating on the drive will lead to equal manouvering capabilities.

The problem is we allow a UBW to execute a 6G turn as we do a small shuttle. That's where things get weak. If both could do 1G turns, that'd be okay. But maybe the big boy shouldn't be capable of anything more than a 3G turn, despite a 6G engine for linear acceleration, unlike the shuttle, which can exert the 6Gs in any direction.

(This argument for the moment assumes thrusters allow you to exert all your Gs in any direction...)

You hit upon the reason large ships aren't manouverable, but I think some of your preamble to the discussion was weak - it is in fact the centrifugal force and torques that would stop your UBW from the high speed snap turns.

And ask me why a 1G or 6G ship can both have an agility of 7 in an emergeny if they have a pilot-7 aboard.... clearly in the former case he's doing *far more* than in the latter case, no?
 
Unfortunately, I don't recall exactly how Agility was supposed to work in MT; I do recall that having excess thrust allowed you to have more of it, though. TNE completely did away with it, but I think they didn't take into account that big ships have problems turning because of centrifigal force. If they had, the term "Agility" could have been reused, but it would have meant something a little different in game terms.

Anyway, let's take a quick example here. Challenge 71 tried to explain TNE space combat, but near as I could tell, they presented some bogus details, which I went about trying to fix, and may have my entire (huge) document printed somewhere soon. For my example, I supposed a 2400 Dton ship (using 14kl apiece, making the hull 33,600kl). For a sphere, this gives us a 40 meter diameter. I chose that value for a reason, but it won't be readily apparent in THIS post. Also, take 1G as 10m/s.

Our sphere ship, with a diameter of 40, has a circumference of 125m. To rotate the ship 90 degrees, the nose must travel about 31 meters. If we do it fast enough that it only takes 1 second, that's a THREE gee acceleration! If our ship is limited to 1G (and we assume we can apply our thrust in any direction we want), it takes 3 seconds to make that turn, or 6 to make a 180.

Say we have a 10:1 ship with the same volume. It will be about 3 times as long, and therefore will generate 3 times the centrifugal forces. It takes a whopping 20 seconds to do a 180! (Rounding of all my numbers is why 3x3x2 seems to be 20.) In space combat, that means that while you're turning, you're not accelerating, and when you're not accelerating, the enemy can predict exactly where you will be, and will miss only due to inaccuracies in his guns' traversing mechanisms, out to a distance of 10 lightseconds (100 TNE space hexes), further than any TNE space combat can normally take place.

Keep in mind these are NOT battlewagons, these are barely destroyers!

Maybe you can afford to beef up your structure to withstand 10Gs, but the problem gets worse with larger craft. The only solution to this nightmare is to hope that gravitic compensation and artificial gravity can some how alleviate this. GC is limited in Trav to 6G at TL15. AG is also limited to 6G, but that's a softer limit. But, CAN they counter Centrifugal forces?

If I'm calculating all this wrong, please tell me, as I want to get this right before I go and post the whole paper. And if it's not a whole ton of work, can you educate me on this torque problem a little bit?
 
You make some good points. The interesting thing is Traveller engines are rated in Gs (an acceleration) not in Thrust (a measure of force).

You are arguing that for an equal rotation (an X degree chance in position about the central axis), a larger ship has to provide more actual force to do the rotation in the same period of time, and this eventually starts to look *very silly*. Which I agree with. This is why I say small ships and large ships can probably rotate at the same speeds if they both have engines that can't generate the kinds of forces which will break them (be that 1 G, 10 Gs, or 0.01 G). Where small ships start to look good is where you try a snap rotation...

Note, however, that this is just rotation to align the engines. In a twenty minute turn, even a monster battlewagon will have little trouble rotating around many times.

Once the engines are aligned (to get you 100% thrust), then you can push in that direction equally easily with a 1G uberwagon and a 1G shuttle.

So the only place this applies is in rotation. And in 15 to 20 minute space combat turns, that is a small fraction of the turn.

Now, to torque. Anytime I excercise a force away from the center of mass, I create a torque moment (IIRC). Torque is the tendency of things to 'twist' if you will. Think of an engine in a car for a model - when you hit the gas in a powerful vehicle, the engine wants to tilt on the mounts.

The torque is a product of the applied force and the distance between the center of mass and the applied force. The longer this distance, the worse the effect. So another disad for large ships is that the further your thrusters get from the center of mass (if they do - and they may not), the worse torque you'll get. But in order to rotate a ship, your manouvering thrusters *must* be off the center of mass by some amount, and hence a torque. That's not good for the hull's structure. The greater the torque, the more likelihood of distorting the structure, and in the case of something like a truss or other stress frame, a screwed up geometry can utterly collapse it as it loses all strength.

Now, as to your other point: At high TL, maybe gravitics are used in localized ways similar to the ST 'structural integrity field'. Perhaps some sorts of dampers that strengthen various forces or nullify others may change how this all works such that large high tech battlewagons can pirhouette like fighters. I don't think this point is ever considered in any Traveller version I'm aware of, other than the nebulous mention of gravitic inertial compensators.
 
Hold on now, I'm not arguing that in a 20/30 minute space combat turn that a ship cannot change its course to anything it wants. I think even the moon could be made to do that if we stuck big enough engines on it. :D What I am arguing is that it takes long enough to do it that you can mathematically guarantee a hit out to very long distances. Battlewagons having huge dimensions are going to be hittable out to maybe 100's of lightseconds (with c-speed weapons) because they can't turn fast.

In TNE, your hexes are .1 LS, and the maximum range-rating that a weapon can have is 80 hexes, or 8 LS. Practical concerns will drop this to ABOUT 40 hexes at TL15, and something like 20 at TL10.

These mathematical guarantees require a few things, though. You have to be able to get exact fixes on your target at all times. Your weapons have to be perfectly accurate too. There's a lot getting in the way of this, and is why even a point-blank shot may fail.

Regarding sensors, you have to have a wide enough dish to resolve the location of the target, preferably resolution down to a cm or less. I don't know the exact res needed, but you can be sure it is more than the minimum required to see the target.

A lot of games require that your opposing ships be within human-sighting distance to hit, and TV/movies are especially vulnerable to this. At these tiny ranges of a km or two, you can really only miss if you take the computer out of the loop, or you aim in the opposite direction.

Harder science allows you to hit things you can't see, as long as your computer CAN. A 500 mile range for a cruise missile is impressive, but it's absolutely NOTHING compared to shooting something as far away as Mars.

In order to avoid being mathematically guaranteed to be hit, you have to be able to move your ship out of a certain circle. For instance, at 1 LS, it takes a second for a sensor echo to return to my ship from the target, and one second for the laser to return. That's 2 seconds that the opposing ship has to get itself outside of a guaranteed hit.

A ship that has a constant rate of travel (it's drifting) may as well be standing still; you can predict where it will be, and can hit it at any distance at all, even out to megaparsecs if you can wait a few million years. :D A ship with constant acceleration can also be hit just as easily; you can predict exactly where it will be when your laser arrives. So you must be able to randomize your position in relation to what's shooting at you.

A 2400 Dton ship (40 meter diameter sphere) with a 1G engine, can change its position by 20 meters in 2 seconds. If I shoot at the exact center of that ship, in 2 seconds, it will have moved JUST ENOUGH that I will miss. (Assuming it spent that whole time accelerating perpendicular to me, and all in the same direction.) I am not guaranteed to hit this ship at a range of 1 LS, if it can change its direction instantly and randomly.

But it can't. I can lead the target a little, and guarantee a hit at 1 LS. Whether it accelerates or not, I will hit it. Because it takes measureable time to turn, I win even more. The way things work, I can probably hit the thing out to about 4 LS, maybe more, but I didn't work that all out yet.

What saves combat from being a contest of shooting first (and penetrating, let's not forget that) is that weapons are NOT perfectly accurate, and neither are sensor locks. A higher res sensor will be able to get a more exact location. Your ship is probably twisting and turning to not only avoid fire, but spread out the energy from incoming beams so they do little if anything to your hull. Your ship vibrates from MANY sources, two major ones being imperfections in drive combustion, and ventilation and cooling systems (for crew and machinery).

Never mind the need for accuracies to even LESS than an atto-radian (we're talking about having even single atoms in your lense out of place, here), AND tracking the target (correctly) while the shot is being fired. In a millisecond (pulse-length for a TNE laser) a ship moving ONLY 1 hex per turn moves 16.67 meters. if you don't track the target during that time, your beam is spread out from 1 square cm to about 1700 of them, basically making your laser hit worthless. You've warmed the hull.

In REAL real life, that would be okay, because you don't HAVE to penetrate the skin to do damage. Warming the target is perfectly acceptible, as long as you can keep doing it. T4's ship-design sequence originally included radiators. These things took up so much surface area that you couldn't make ships bigger than about 5000 Dtons, and people complained about it.

However, the problem is that this is REALISTIC. Heat is a killer. Your reactor wastes about 50% of its power as heat outright, and most of your gear is going to have waste heat... You pretty much have to radiate the heat of your entire reactor output just because of waste heat. All you have out there to get rid of it is radiation, and that's the least effective of the three means of heat transfer. Nevermind that big, bright fusion reactor 93 million miles away heating you up if you're not in a shadow. It's almost self-destruction for a military craft to be painted black.

Heat radiation is such a problem, that even the ultra-hard-science fiction game Aurora decided that it was too onerous to gameplay and got rid of it. (Please look beyond the chinsy graphics before rendering an opinion.)

I hope I haven't wandered too far away from whatever it is we're arguing about. :D
 
I have no idea what we're arguing about...
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But it sure is interesting.

All I did was say 'there is some combination of ship length and applied rotational thrust at which point the materials will fail and you'll bend or break your ship' and 'however, a 1G shuttle and a 1G battlewagon may, in that sense, not reach the breaking threshold, so both may be able to spin around equally easily' and 'however, the shuttle may be able to manage the same manouver at 8Gs, and the battlewagon may start to crumple at 3Gs of rotational thrust'. So what I'm saying is 'large long ships are likely to bend or break before smaller ones or ones whose mass is more closely concentrated around the theoretical center of mass' (spheres).

Now, you make a lot of interesting points about the whole 'hit' thing.

But here are some other considerations:

1. Your sensor resolution wants to be (I'd guess) 4 to 8 times greater than your target size if you want to see it reliably. You might get away with twice.

2. For dodging, you need to be able to change course enough to cause your predicted position to differ enough from your actual position to cause a miss.

If the drive is such that it is distributed around the ship, that's a whole different stress picture than a drive pushing at one place. If it is distributed, then I can push my long thin ship hard to the side without breaking it in half. In this event, the spherical shape isn't required or optimal. In the event that this is not true, if the drive thrusts at the center of mass, I may have it snap in the middle if I put on too much thrust. So larger heavier ships (due to 'moments') may shatter or break where smaller or more compact ones won't, even when it comes to dodging.

Space combat, as you point out, is dodgy.

Using an active sensor, I send out a pulse to my target 1 LS away. It takes 1 LS to get there, 1 LS to get back, some amount of time to resolve and process and provide direction to my laser turret, then I fire and it takes my laser 1 LS to arrive. So 3+LS pass, though the time from my ship to the other ship is irrelevant, so the only key part is the 2+ LS as you indicate. If I drop the processing time to zero, then it is 2 LS. So he has 2 LS to alter course enough to be missed.

For me to deliver a lot of energy on target, enough to punch through and do damage, I have to hit with a fairly narrow beam and a lot of emitted power. My 250 MW laser probably hopes to dump most of that into a small target area. I'm not sure how small it needs to be to rip through a ship, but I'm guessing smaller than 1 square meter in cross section. So I have to deliver the bulk of that cross section of beam onto the ship's cross section given a 2 LS lag. Depending on his ship size and cross section and thrust he can manage, he may or may not be able to dodge. He can roll (as a heat dispersion technique), and he can jink. How effective that is depends on how many Gs he can practically apply without damaging his ship. If the answer were 100Gs, he'd probably be real hard to hit. If the answer is 0.01 Gs, he'd almost always be hit. (We're ignoring optical camouflage in this whole debate...)

So, what are practical combat ranges? I think BL has reasonable ones given the already dodgy issue of grav focusing of laser beams.

But I don't think BL has any concept of MT and HGs 'agility' or 'emergency agility'. There really isn't a good physical reason why a pilot-7 flying a 1 G behemoth can outjink a pilot-2 flying a 6G fighter, but MT would let it happen.

I actually suspect most of war in space will come down to fire control and sensor quality and tuning, crew quality, discrimination of sensor systems, and the ability to actually deliver the power fast enough and precisely enough at range to do meaningful damage. Heat is a threat, but we're postulating gravitic laser beam focus and gravitic acceleration compensation.... does some ubertech heat sink or heat dissipation (into the Nth dimension) really seem outrageous given these items?

It's an interesting discussion, but we have two or three elements:

1. Real physics, as we understand them today
2. Uber sci/tech, what can it do or not do?
3. What makes for a fun game?
 
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