Search and rescue

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by signless:
That assumes the starport is on a J6 x-boat route.

X-boats are J-4, IIRC. And lots of the major trade routes correspond to X-boat routes.

I would think that if this were the case, the starport would be responsible for handling any flight plan registrations, and forwarding them to other 'ports. In most undeveloped (and even fairly well-developed) subsectors, mail would be handled via contract with a subsidized merchant. That adds at least another week on to the time for delivery (depending on startport destination, of course).

One of the stupider aspects of OTU. A single 10kg data storage unit could probably store something like 1,000 Terrabytes (estimate on the conservative side from today's tech). There's nor reason other ships like Xboats shouldn't be carrying the mail. Especially important time sensitive stuff.

I think it's a fairly good idea, but I see it becoming a tangled beurocratic morass of shuffled data. Which could become an interesting part of any S&R crew's job.

I see this as being likely only in the case of well-established trade routes, or by large travel/commerce companies. I think most free trading outfits won't see much benefit from it, or don't want anyone knowing where they're headed.

As soon as you start taking freight and passengers for a location (generally four or five days ahead) you can file your plan as anyone who sees who boards, your adds, or what freight you are loading will know.

After all, in the game of Traveller commerce, whoever gets to the cargo first oftentimes leaves with it.

I'm not sure what makes you say this. I'm not sure this is actually supported by any ruleset I've seen nor do I suspect, given the vast trade volumes I imagine (I do believe in the heavy trade TU), that it really applies. Due to the odd restrictions applied by the uncertain nature of jump and the need to plan ahead, I think the JIT aspect of a lot of on-world or in-system commerce won't apply between worlds.

If smaller ships are required to file, that may also increase the rist of piracy - giving the bad guys (however they may do it...) a chance to know where you're headed, and when you're leaving.

Assuming you file by x-mail or reliable other free trader, you should have no issue. Mail tampering will still be a crime. But yes, there is a risk created.

I agree the IISS should be involved in the administration of such operations, but I think each subsector should be required for the actual field work.

?

It's a tricky kind of situation, however you want to figure it. I think it would be a logistical nightmare in some places, while it could also provide a handy training opportunity for the Navy in others.

Sure, Navy, COACC, other traffic - all can and will under varying circumstances be involved.

 

[Drakon]

Got an additional question.
SAR fails to find the ship and everyone dies. Another ship finds it years later. What are the salvage laws?

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by Drakon:
Got an additional question.
SAR fails to find the ship and everyone dies. Another ship finds it years later. What are the salvage laws?

I would imagine similar to modern earth, with one exception. Modern salvage rules basically say that once a ship is abandoned, whoever takes the risk to salvage it reaps the rewards of ownership. This would probably hold true, as the intent of the law is to encourage salvage and return wealth to the economy which would remain lost if the salvager did not get clear title to the property. In Traveller, the one modification would be that you could have crew in emergency low berths which are still on board. In this situation, I think the law would probably say that going into cold sleep counts as abandoning the ship, with some form of compensation going to the former owner if they have survived on board. That way there is no incentive to space the low berths to claim the ship (not that any reputable crew would ever consider such a thing).

 

[kaladorn]

If the last poster had it right, I'd wire my low births to wake me up when someone boarded so I could prevent them from salvaging my ship!

Yes, I agree there are some risks of the 'there are no survivors' school of salvage, but I'm assuming part of a modern salvor operation is providing accurate multi-point real-time video and voice and comm log feeds. Tampering with these to hide the presence of low berths should not only be tricky, but very illegal.

I think being in a cold berth is like being asleep - the vessel isn't abandoned. It is 'not under command' but that has a specific meaning only relative to navigation. I'm also assuming that insured crews would result in high rescue bonds posted by the insurers to help compensate salvors who found a low berth crew. It wouldn't be the value of the ship, but it would make the rescue worthwhile.

 

[The Oz]

I like kaladorn's idea of "rescue bonds" that all insured crews would have to encourage their rescue by others. How much? I'd go with MCr1 per person, at least. I'd imagine that the passengers would have similar insurance available as well, and once the ship was declared "lost" the rescue bond amounts would be openly posted, to provide incentive to go and look.

It's like a formal structure for ransoms: just how much is an Imperial Baron worth, anyway?

OTOH, those low berths will only last so long (depending on the fuel left in the ship when they went into cryosleep) so sooner or later the ship will count as "abandoned."

 

[Ranger]

The issue of salvage laws is interesting because there is one big difference between modern salvage and Traveller, namely that modern laws focus mostly on cargo because it is pretty much assumed that the vessel will be a total loss (sunk or wrecked beyond redemption). In the situations we are discussing here though, the ship itself could be the main salvage target, and made good with relativly minor repairs (compared to the total cost of the ship).

So, how would insurance and other laws effect the concept of salvage ownership?

 

[signless]

I think it might also depend on WHO is in the low berths. If they're just passengers, then I would lean more toward having the ship declared "abandoned". If there are crew-sicles on board, then the presence of their authority through the chain-of-command might invalidate a salvage claim.
Which may even lead to the practice of carrying a small one-man "frozen watch" stuffed in a closet somewheres aboard...just in case...

 

[kaladorn]

A one man frozen watch... now that gives for interesting solo adventuring sceharios..... wow.

And yes, I should have said it only applied to crew or owners.... not passengers, who are effectively human cargo.

I'd have set the bounty at about 500KCr per crew member. That way, a free trader rescue could be worth 2-3 MCr. That seems about right to me. For passengers, it might vary from 50KCr (low passage) all the way up to multiple megacredits (or more) for some very special high passengers.

 

[Ranger]

Hmmm... perhaps a Traveller version of the captain's final duty. It used to be going down with the ship, now it could mean going into cold sleep once all the rest of the crew and passangers are safely away in lifeboats.

 

[MrMorden]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Over in the Fleet there is an excellent thread running concerning lifeboats for starships. I would like to know how people run search and rescue in their Traveller Universes.

Some questions to think about:
1. how long after a ship is overdue does a search and rescue opperation begin
2. which organisations are responsible for search and rescue, i.e. is it the Scouts, the Navy, local governments, the shipping lines themselves etc
3. just how would you go about searching along the jump route of a missing vessel, what about misjumps
4. do specialised search and rescue ships exist
5. are there any salvage experts/scavengers looking to make a killing from ships in distress

Any thoughts?

IMTU:

1) Ships are not *required* to file a flightplan. If they don't, they will NEVER be declared overdue. If they file one, It will be at least one week before anything at all is done, since that's the minimum amount of time it takes for the flightplan at the origination point to get to the destination, for them to even *know* the ship's overdue!

For interplanetary vessels, they are declared overdue if they are more than 25% late. In other words, if they filed a four-day flight plan, they'd be overdue 24 hours after the end of the fourth day.

Once overdue, a ship is repeatedly hailed by the highest power communications gear available to the destination port. If these hails are not responded to, the ranking port official can authorize a SAR mission. Typically, all the SAR does is sweep the 100D limit if the flight is an incoming jump, or follow the flight plan if it's interplanetary. If sensors find nothing, the ship is listed as missing, and stays that way until word of a positive contact with the ship reaches the port. Space is to damn big for anything resembling a real patterned search.

2) The starport authority is responsible for the search, but they can demand assistance from any other vessel in peacetime, and any non-military vessel in wartime.

3) I mostly answered this in (1) above. The jump route is not searched, just the 100D limit at the destination world (and a week or so later at the origin world, if the ship is not located). In the event of a misjump, the ship remains listed as missing with that port until the ship is confirmed spotted (in other words, it may never be unlisted). Starports tend to sync records with nearby ports regularly, so a misjumped ship will likely be unlisted as missing after a few months.

4) Yes, I use the GURP Blakeway-class ship, as well as many modified scouts, free traders, whatever the individual port can afford.

5) Anybody attacking a ship in distress is guilty of piracy. If a ship is abandoned or derelict, then the salvage crews tend to sweep down on it like vultures. It is not uncommon for salvage companies to fire on each other to protect a claim. Once claims are made (a formal communication to the Starport or any bases nearby is required), the starport authority decides which claims are honored and to what degree. If there is a lot of dispute, a hearing may be held with sensor logs, communications, etc. used as evidence.

Most salvagers avoid a hearing like the plague, since in the amount of time it takes to complete, rivals have likely stripped the claim to the bone.

 

[MrMorden]

Originally posted by stofsk:
Another take on the SAR thing...

Would not all ships that CAN help be obligated to do so, regardless of whether they are Navy, Scout or Civilian? Kind of like 'spaceman's code' or something. Basically if you hear an SOS then you should drop everything and invesitgate.

That can work for the nearest ship or two, but not everybody. If they all respond the area of space around the vessel in distress will get very crowded!

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by MrMorden:

That can work for the nearest ship or two, but not everybody. If they all respond the area of space around the vessel in distress will get very crowded! [/QUOTE]

I've just got this massively bizzare and improbable image in my mind of an interplanetary pile-up. It seems that traffic jams are still prevalent in the OTU.

And make sure the fuzz don't catch you speeding past lightspeed. Gotta respect the laws, even the immutable ones!

 

[kaladorn]

Real world protocols generally have the nearest authority (Coast Gaurd, Navy) take charge. They send their assets out. They may delegate police or other assets and civilians in the area may volunteer to assist or may notify the authority that they are diverting to assist. Everyone doesn't divert, just the nearby vessels.