Search and rescue

[mike wightman]

Over in the Fleet there is an excellent thread running concerning lifeboats for starships. I would like to know how people run search and rescue in their Traveller Universes.

Some questions to think about:
1. how long after a ship is overdue does a search and rescue opperation begin
2. which organisations are responsible for search and rescue, i.e. is it the Scouts, the Navy, local governments, the shipping lines themselves etc
3. just how would you go about searching along the jump route of a missing vessel, what about misjumps
4. do specialised search and rescue ships exist
5. are there any salvage experts/scavengers looking to make a killing from ships in distress

Any thoughts?

 

[far-trader]

1. how long after a ship is overdue does a search and rescue opperation begin

First of course someone has to know the ship's schedule and/or flight plan. How often will the average PC free trader Captain or detached duty Scout bother, or even be able to? Quite different for those subbies and regular patrol ships.

Then depending on the ship SAR could be initiated anytime past the normal jump window extreme but likely not for the first 24 hours past eta for regular schedules to account for jump time error and possible delays in the prejump phase. Probably 48 hours or more for a non-scheduled ship filing an advance flight plan. Of course if said ship is hauling valuable or important cargo or passengers perhaps things will move quicker.

2. which organisations are responsible for search and rescue, i.e. is it the Scouts, the Navy, local governments, the shipping lines themselves etc

IMTU typically the Scouts are first. Using Type S (detached duty if handy) for the actual SAR and linking to X-Boats to spread the word. The IN would get involved if the missing ship were important (i.e. a Noble or Navy) and the MegaCorps would probably initiate their own effort in tandem or independantly (to protect their interests).

3. just how would you go about searching along the jump route of a missing vessel, what about misjumps

First thing is do you allow deep space jumps or not IYTU? In either case it probably makes sense to only look around known star systems (the old story of looking for your lost keys where the light is better).

So first you look where they left from, in case they had a problem at that end. From there you expand your search radially. Depending on the type of ship missing and it's value the serch limit will be defined to certain systems. You could safely ignore systems with regular traffic and only need to look where the ship could be and be unable to get help.

4. do specialised search and rescue ships exist

Not too likely, the need wouldn't support it when regular ships (Type S and Type T likely) will work well enough for small ships. Not sure about bigger ships but even then the Type S and Type T could find it and get more help.

5. are there any salvage experts/scavengers looking to make a killing from ships in distress

Very probably, and even ships long lost would still have value, think modern treasure ship hunting. Belters would fit this category at least in T20 (saw salvage rules somewhere).

That's my thoughts anyway

Nice topic pick Sigg Oddra

A couple more questions to add to the discussion:

6. What about the bank holding the mortage on the ship if applicable. How sticky are they about filing flight plans and how long overdue on payment or port call before they call in a skip-tracer?

I'd say they would insist on filing and sticking to a flight plan. Failing to keep it would be grounds for repossession or financial penalties. They'd probably give you at least a couple days to show before putting a skip-tracer on it, maybe as much as a week or two.

7. Who pays for the SAR costs? Is it a free service of the Imperium? What would the costs amount to?

I'd say the Captain would be responsible for the costs, and I'd probably use the standard charter rates of any ships involved. It could get very expensive so the serach would probably limit it's budget to the value that could be reasonably recovered. Of course if the reason for the search is a notable person then they may be the one responsible for the costs (and hence determine the budget).

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by far-trader:
1. how long after a ship is overdue does a search and rescue opperation begin

How do flight plans propagate? If you're on a schedule route (ie milk run...), you may have a well defined schedule. In that case, 48 hours may be sufficient to launch a SAR op, although 72 or 96 may be more likely. (Time for you to get an x-boat message through cancelling your flight plan or a message via another route).

Seems also likely that ships jumping from A to B take a load of updated traffic data/etc. (perhaps in their transponder subsystem?) to B. This might include recent departures from A on vector to B. So if a ship arrives and a ship before that hasn't called, and it is outside 'normal jump deviances', a SAR op may be undertaken.

For tramps with no flight plan, I imagine they frequently go missing without anyone noticing for weeks, months or maybe years. If ever.

For the Navy, they will have movement orders. If they don't carry out their orders (returning or reporting or showing up somewhere), the Navy will figure it out eventually and presumably at least send a scout to investigate through the systems the ship *should* have passed through. [1]

2. which organisations are responsible for search and rescue, i.e. is it the Scouts, the Navy, local governments, the shipping lines themselves etc

Civilian Shipping? Scouts.
Major Lines? Perhaps the line has a SAR contract with someone. Or uses its own assets.
Noble? Probably Scouts + Navy + Civilian. More depending on rank.
Naval Ship? Navy, though they can ask for Scout help.
Free Trader Nobody? Scouts if it gets reported sometime reasonably close to the loss estimated date, otherwise, any friends they might have...

3. just how would you go about searching along the jump route of a missing vessel, what about misjumps

Well, with a flight plan, you check things along the flight plan. You use x-boats and other mail services and passing ships to carry messages to nearby systems, listing a coordination point to which any sightings are to be reported. This missing ship is added to NOTSPACS (Notice to Spacers) and is part of the data upload into the transponder memory before transition to the next system. So the information propagates at a rate dependent on X-boat lines or abscence thereof, and also the amount of other traffic. The Navy may well keep its 'missing ships' a secret, for OPSEC reasons.

After that, avialable resources (Type S seems likely, though I can see specialized Type S with extra powerful sensors/comms being stationed here and there) are sent to check places within one ship jump of the intermediate systems. A great emphasis is put on establishing 'last known position' and in then using that as a nucleus for a radial or spiral search.

If the person or ship is large enough, important enough, or valuable enough, rewards will be offered for info or for recovery, and suddenly you have a lot of local ships pitching in.

4. do specialised search and rescue ships exist

Yes. The scouts have some at each scout base IMTU and the Navy has some with each fleet. Since their main job is locating the target unit and providing small amounts of immediate aide rather than full recovery, they tend to be under 500 tons and have some SARtech teams aboard who are skilled in shipboard sensor use, boarding, damage control, and medical stuff.

Their may be private corporate versions. There may also be corps for whom this is an entire job/area of expertise. This may be part of some starship insurance plans.

5. are there any salvage experts/scavengers looking to make a killing from ships in distress

Yes, and you can bet any 'salvage claim' is carefully investigated by the insurers AND the authorities to help ensure no one is tempted to 'piracy'.

6. What about the bank holding the mortage on the ship if applicable. How sticky are they about filing flight plans and how long overdue on payment or port call before they call in a skip-tracer?

I think somewhat. They probably require you to file a flight plan but that may be 'just before departure' for being carried to the destination system by the next available ship going there (as part of their data load). That way there is at least some notice. If you *can* file one ahead of time (tough depending on cargo scheduling), you are *encouraged* to do so.

As for the skip-tracer.... how does any central office or any branch office for that matter know that your ship didn't make its payment 10 parsecs away? They don't. So there has to be a fairly large elapsed time involved before a tracer is sent out.

I *did* like the suggestion someone had about an attachment being fitted that will neutralize your drives if you are overdue by more than 30 days on a payment. The system gets reset whenever you make a payment in a port. (Yes, you could find it and remove it, but you automatically mark yourself as a crook then). The extra 30 days allows for problems and misjumps and following business opportunities. Longer periods may be coded in special cases, if the Bank agrees.

7. Who pays for the SAR costs? Is it a free service of the Imperium? What would the costs amount to?

The last poster got this one wrong. It is the *OWNER* (not necessarily the Captain) who should pay any SAR costs. Now, you might well purchase insurance for this (the Bank might MAKE you). Additionally, the costs you will be charged will not be the full SAR expenses (they will be a percentage, maybe 33%), unless the Imperial Authorities determine: 1) The ship's command was negligent and this resulted directly in the ship's lost status, 2) the ship's owners failed to ensure proper maintenance schedules were maintained, resulting in the ship's lost status, 3) the ship was involved in illegal activity and this resulted in its lost status, 4) the ship was a victim of Act of Deity or War. In those cases, the ship owner pays the full bill.

 

[mike wightman]

And question number 8:

would it be economically feasible for shipping lines or megacorps to maintain "coastguard" or "lifeboat" stations in low tech systems along the route of liners just in case? They may even be robot or computer controlled in order to cut down on overheads.

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
And question number 8:

would it be economically feasible for shipping lines or megacorps to maintain "coastguard" or "lifeboat" stations in low tech systems along the route of liners just in case? They may even be robot or computer controlled in order to cut down on overheads.

Ignoring the subpoint of "do traveller cargo and passenger economics actually work?"

I'd say on some very busy routes between high pop worlds, it might be feasible. But, in high pop worlds, you'd expect good Imperial facilities. So the only places the corps might have an interest that aren't normally well occupied are 'intermediate locations' which aren't worth a big Imperial Port but which do act as refueling stops for big liners. In that case, a small facility might be in place... perhaps only system boats with one small jump ship for search or to go alert nearby major Imperial SAR that a liner has 'gone missing'.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
And question number 8:

would it be economically feasible for shipping lines or megacorps to maintain "coastguard" or "lifeboat" stations in low tech systems along the route of liners just in case? They may even be robot or computer controlled in order to cut down on overheads.

If it's a route with considerable traffic, it's economically feasible for megacorps to build their own starports. If a thousand dtons of cargo per day come through a system (BTN 8 in far trader terms) 10-50 dtons of small craft permanently in the system could easily be worthwhile.

 

[stofsk]

Going back to the question of who would be responsible for S&R, would it not be the Navy's responsibility?

I mean, I thought Scouts were some glorified exploration & diplomatic service. The Navy would have more resources as well, I'd imagine.

Can those that believe the scouts would be in charge of S&R state their reasons why? It just seems unlikely, that's all. Typically since wet navies are given this sort of job, and I'm not as familiar to T20 as others here, so I may be missing something.

Cheers,
Stofsk

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
In my opinion there would be no SAR's in the imperium.
WHY - if the ship fails to jump the space port should know (they should be tracking all flights in and out of controled space and this should be larger than 100diameters).
If you come out in an inhabited system with a star port they should spot you with sensors if they dont and you cant send a message your probably dead anyway.
If its a system without a port and you cant jump out you should get ready for a long wait.
If it's a miss jump who's going to search and where in the possible 36 parsec radius.
The supposedly unbreakable transponder would be a good spot for the owners info and any encumberance info for banks and the navy (this info could be updated at any class A or B starport).
SAR's only works if you have high speed communications, and known departure and arrival times, not 3 day spreeds on maybe arrivals.
If the system has regular arrivals then the ships in system would be required to do any rescues (Naval Law).
My .02Mcr worth.
Bye.
Is the sock race still on.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
WHY - if the ship fails to jump the space port should know (they should be tracking all flights in and out of controled space and this should be larger than 100diameters).

Doubtful at D or E ports, maybe even at C.

If you come out in an inhabited system with a star port they should spot you with sensors if they dont and you cant send a message your probably dead anyway.

Or your comms are broken, along with other things.

Besides, sending out a message only removes the need for 'search' not 'rescue'.

If its a system without a port and you cant jump out you should get ready for a long wait.

Very long, IYTU, with no one looking....

If it's a miss jump who's going to search and where in the possible 36 parsec radius.

A lot of misjumps will be in-system, others will be within 6 parsecs. Only extreme ones will be that far out.

The supposedly unbreakable transponder would be a good spot for the owners info and any encumberance info for banks and the navy (this info could be updated at any class A or B starport).

I imagine this is in fact the case.

SAR's only works if you have high speed communications, and known departure and arrival times, not 3 day spreeds on maybe arrivals.

There were search and rescue facilities long before we had this kind of capability on earth.

If the system has regular arrivals then the ships in system would be required to do any rescues (Naval Law).

Yes and no. They would *not* be required to endanger their own vessel. And some rescues might do just that. This is where the pros come in. Also, the pros will be more efficient and effective at it.

Also, as to why the Scouts?

I see the Imperial Navy as a bit standoffish and really not giving much of a hoot about those outside 'The Service'. That's just my take. But Scouts always seemed more approachable. Since they are responsible for mail and relay stations, adding Search and Rescue just made sense (and having them tend the bouyage too).

Furthermore, they are probably the best with search sensors out there. And their crews have training in a wide variety of things, so they'd be maybe even better capable of dealing with the unforseen aspects of rescue work than the Navy.

Plus the Navy might well have other tasks, like fighting wars.

I think the Navy could get involved, were they available and were they interested. I think they'd probably take charge in that case.

But the Coast Gaurd in Canada is a *civilian* organization, unlike in the US where it is another Armed Service. I'm not sure how the distribution breaks down worldwide, but some will fit the former category, some the latter. It is not at all clear that the Navy does all or even a bulk of the rescue work.

And the oddball work of the CCG, like icebreaking, maintaining lights and bouys, SAR.... those just seem to me like Scout functions given their role already in maintaining a messaging network - they already have a lot of the required infrastructure along major shipping lines.

 

[stofsk]

Another take on the SAR thing...

Would not all ships that CAN help be obligated to do so, regardless of whether they are Navy, Scout or Civilian? Kind of like 'spaceman's code' or something. Basically if you hear an SOS then you should drop everything and invesitgate.

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by stofsk:
Going back to the question of who would be responsible for S&R, would it not be the Navy's responsibility?

I mean, I thought Scouts were some glorified exploration & diplomatic service. The Navy would have more resources as well, I'd imagine.

Can those that believe the scouts would be in charge of S&R state their reasons why? It just seems unlikely, that's all. Typically since wet navies are given this sort of job, and I'm not as familiar to T20 as others here, so I may be missing something.

Cheers,
Stofsk

I think the reasoning here is that the Scouts are also responsible for spacelane safty (they chart hazards for example) and have a mission similar to the Coast Guard in this instance. They also get 'seconded' to the Navy in wartime (like the USCG). In the US, it is the Coast Guard that is responsible for SAR, and the Navy only helps when needed, so that gets extended to the TU as a model.

 

[stofsk]

I see. Down here our Navy handles SAR (I believe) - we do not have a coast guard. I figured Scouts were the ones who land on planets and explore down on the surface, make first contact, map stars and jump routes - given that's where the major exploration would occur.

My thought for Navies is that in peactime they have to do these sort of duty because they are fulfilling their mandate to protect the citizenry - just in a different way ie not due to combat or war, but in the case of disasters and accidents. A Naval vessel, with a hangar bay (or equivalent) of shuttles would probably be more suited to SAR work than the smaller ships Scouts are supposed to fly (I only know of the scout/courier).

 

[signless]

While I think S&R is a definite must in the Imperium, there are some difficulties (besides those already listed...).
The first being how anyone would know if a ship is missing or overdue. Jump transit times take a week in CT. That means no one would know at the destination 'port if anyone were overdue for at least that long. In addition, there's no way to anticipate the arrival of any ship until it actually appears in-system. Since there are no FTL communications, filing a flight plan doesn't do much good...it would take a week for the plan to reach your destination, then another week for word of your arrival (or failure to arrive...) to reach the starport you just left.
That gives us a time lapse of at least two standard weeks (probably three, since most would allow you a week for transit time) before anyone became aware you were overdue.
Once it's been determined that S&R is justified in any circumstance, I almost see it as the work of the local subsector government. Perhaps its a branch of service funded through a tax on local businesses and shipping outfits (plus a generous contribution by the Imperium, of course). I'd create an analogue to the modern-day US Coast Guard, and lump them together with the same guys who patrol subsector systems in SDB's.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by signless:
The first being how anyone would know if a ship is missing or overdue. Jump transit times take a week in CT. That means no one would know at the destination 'port if anyone were overdue for at least that long.

Not entirely true. On any kind of a busy route that has mail delivery, when you start picking up cargo (a three or four day process at least) for a port, you could file a flight plan and send it out by x-boat. The other side would then know to within a day or so of when you should arrive. Similarly, in other places with lesser mail service, if their are other ships going, they may carry dispatches. Or, if you are operating on regularly scheduled route trade.

In addition, there's no way to anticipate the arrival of any ship until it actually appears in-system.

If its an unannounced arrival, this is so.

Since there are no FTL communications, filing a flight plan doesn't do much good...it would take a week for the plan to reach your destination, then another week for word of your arrival (or failure to arrive...) to reach the starport you just left.

Makes two assumptions:
1. That the flight plan isn't filed before you leave. It seems to me you'd likely file one three to five days before you leave.
2. Word might be sent back, and the you came from makes the first logical checkpoint, but there is no need to have the originating starport launch the search. That can come from the destination.
Note: I am aware this opens up the possibility of false searches. Filing and not executing a flight plan, resulting in a false search, would result in the full charge being levied against the ship owner in the event they didn't have very good cause.

That gives us a time lapse of at least two standard weeks (probably three, since most would allow you a week for transit time) before anyone became aware you were overdue.

I say they would know within 24-36 hours of your not arriving on time.

Once it's been determined that S&R is justified in any circumstance, I almost see it as the work of the local subsector government.

When was the last time you saw a paper pusher in Ottawa, Washington or Canberra do any S&R work?

Perhaps its a branch of service funded through a tax on local businesses and shipping outfits (plus a generous contribution by the Imperium, of course). I'd create an analogue to the modern-day US Coast Guard, and lump them together with the same guys who patrol subsector systems in SDB's.

That sounds like you'd make it a COACC function. There is some justification for that, but in the Traveller context, they have to be able to jump to check out other possible locations. Thus I think more appropriately Scouts. They have small ships, not too expensive to operate, and just fine for locating missing ships and rescuing smaller crews or going for more help. Also, they maintain (with Navy help) various embargo zones, are a paramilitary arm, etc.

You can argue for a separate entity, the Scouts, or the Navy. All have 'arguments in favour'. Thus it can be a customization for YTU, at least until this ever (if it does) gets addressed in the OTU.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by stofsk:
I see. Down here our Navy handles SAR (I believe) - we do not have a coast guard. I figured Scouts were the ones who land on planets and explore down on the surface, make first contact, map stars and jump routes - given that's where the major exploration would occur.

While you might think that Scouts do, oh, scouting work like exploration, the Imperium is explored, and has been pretty much explored for most of a thousand years. The scouts don't do much exploration work any more. Giving them S&R, and other forms of basic safety along the spacelanes, makes some sense.

 

[signless]

Kaladorn writes: On any kind of a busy route that has mail delivery, when you start picking up cargo (a three or four day process at least) for a port, you could file a flight plan and send it out by x-boat.

That assumes the starport is on a J6 x-boat route. I would think that if this were the case, the starport would be responsible for handling any flight plan registrations, and forwarding them to other 'ports. In most undeveloped (and even fairly well-developed) subsectors, mail would be handled via contract with a subsidized merchant. That adds at least another week on to the time for delivery (depending on startport destination, of course).

The other side would then know to within a day or so of when you should arrive. Similarly, in other places with lesser mail service, if their are other ships going, they may carry dispatches. Or, if you are operating on regularly scheduled route trade.

I think it's a fairly good idea, but I see it becoming a tangled beurocratic morass of shuffled data. Which could become an interesting part of any S&R crew's job.

Makes two assumptions:
1. That the flight plan isn't filed before you leave. It seems to me you'd likely file one three to five days before you leave.

I see this as being likely only in the case of well-established trade routes, or by large travel/commerce companies. I think most free trading outfits won't see much benefit from it, or don't want anyone knowing where they're headed. After all, in the game of Traveller commerce, whoever gets to the cargo first oftentimes leaves with it. If smaller ships are required to file, that may also increase the rist of piracy - giving the bad guys (however they may do it...) a chance to know where you're headed, and when you're leaving.
I agree the IISS should be involved in the administration of such operations, but I think each subsector should be required for the actual field work. It's a tricky kind of situation, however you want to figure it. I think it would be a logistical nightmare in some places, while it could also provide a handy training opportunity for the Navy in others.
I don't think we'll find a good blanket approach to the matter, though...JMHO.

 

[far-trader]

Just a bit of Canon fire

across the bow of this topic, arrr

Adventure 1 - The Kinunir

p. 10 "Kinunir disappeared without a trace while on routine patrol sometime on mid-1088. A subsector-wide search failed to locate the ship, and its fate remains unkonwn."

So it seems the Navy figures even a serious search need only cover about a subsector before being called off, even for a ship with a Black Globe and experimental AI computer!

Either that or (conspiracy theory time )...

1) They knew what happened and the search was just a smoke screen.

2) They found it and are covering up what happened.

or...

...well, no, that would be telling, and way off topic so back to the main theme of SAR

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by stofsk:
I see. Down here our Navy handles SAR (I believe) - we do not have a coast guard. I figured Scouts were the ones who land on planets and explore down on the surface, make first contact, map stars and jump routes - given that's where the major exploration would occur.

My thought for Navies is that in peactime they have to do these sort of duty because they are fulfilling their mandate to protect the citizenry - just in a different way ie not due to combat or war, but in the case of disasters and accidents. A Naval vessel, with a hangar bay (or equivalent) of shuttles would probably be more suited to SAR work than the smaller ships Scouts are supposed to fly (I only know of the scout/courier).

Understandable miscommunication, as Traveller was designed by Americans, it takes concepts like these as givens. The Coast Guard/Navy distinction comes from the fact that the US Navy has been a power projection arm since the early days of the Republic. The US inherated a large merchant fleet with significant trade contacts after independance. One of the first wars the US faught was agianst the North African pirates who were attacking US shipping in the Mediterrainian. Our Coast Guard does what most navies do (protect the shores).

As to Scout ships, FASA actually did a Scout Cruser in one of their Adventure Ships packs that was a scout version of the mercinary cruser, with two modular shuttles. That sounds like a good SAR ship to me.

 

[signless]

"Canon" fire. *snerk*
Heh.

 

[signless]

Over at JTAS, they have an article posted from a while back about a GURPS: Traveller version of a "First Responder" rescue vessel based on the 100-ton scout hull. It's not jump-capable, but I think it would work for in-system rescue work.