Those worlds likely will be trading for bulk plastic stocks rather than growing their own locally.
Scarce raw material resources
- Thread starter Maitrejeanthierry
- Start date
Those worlds likely will be trading for bulk plastic stocks rather than growing their own locally.
Maitrejeanthierry
SOC-7
Thanks a lot, this is all very interesting.
What I'm also starting to infer from your contributions is that, in some very specific cases, agro resources could also turn into critical assets, on a par with Lanthanum and what-have-you, if only as oil/coal substitutes.
What I'm also starting to infer from your contributions is that, in some very specific cases, agro resources could also turn into critical assets, on a par with Lanthanum and what-have-you, if only as oil/coal substitutes.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
The easiest petroleum substitute is making it from algae or diatoms since this is essentially where oil comes from to begin with.
BraselC5048
SOC-8
Personally, IMTU oil is relatively uncommon. After all, you need a pretty specific life history on a world to have it. It will be in high demand, though - plastics and fuel. But, there won't be as much available as everyone would like.
Plant material can make up for some of it, but it takes a lot of farmland. IMTU, this means that plastics aren't used in anything near the quantities they are today, mostly being reserved to where they are really needed. Oil isn't needed for all energy production, since fusion reactors can easily provide baseline electrical power. The need for fuel is more for portable, easily stored, high energy density fuel. Aviation fuel is a prime example.
Rare earth elements are another thing traded, as are quality foodstuffs. (or in some cases, just foodstuffs).
The interesting thing is that, over the hundreds or even thousands of years of industrial civilization, most high population planets will have exhausted any economic reserves of even common materials. (on present day Terra, current rates will begin exhausting reserves in the next few centuries, or even decades. Scary.) Even iron ore reserves may only last several centuries for an industrial civilization in the low billions.
IMTU, the need to secure sources of raw materials is one of the major drivers of wars. (along with nationalism and disputed claims to various thrones and territories).
Ore reserves, at least concentrated enough to make mining worthwhile, requires geologic activity, which means larger sized worlds (size 5-6 and up, the higher the better), gas giant moons under tidal stress, or both. IMTU, strip mining with bulldozers, backhoes, dump trucks and dynamite is more efficient then asteroid mining.
This leads all leads to trade, of course.
Interesting note: it might actually be more efficient to ship iron ore through jump to a planet with coal and limestone then to move coal and limestone to a vacuum world, then ship steel out. At least as long as the steel is used to make products on the world the iron ore is shipped to, and then used there, rather then on the planet it's mined on.
But then, no one lives on your vacuum mining world, and lots of people live on that nearby high population planet, and the factories are there, so the ore will be shipped out at first. And since that's the way it started, that's the way the trade patterns, mills, factories and population will develop, and fix that pattern into place for a long time.
Plant material can make up for some of it, but it takes a lot of farmland. IMTU, this means that plastics aren't used in anything near the quantities they are today, mostly being reserved to where they are really needed. Oil isn't needed for all energy production, since fusion reactors can easily provide baseline electrical power. The need for fuel is more for portable, easily stored, high energy density fuel. Aviation fuel is a prime example.
Rare earth elements are another thing traded, as are quality foodstuffs. (or in some cases, just foodstuffs).
The interesting thing is that, over the hundreds or even thousands of years of industrial civilization, most high population planets will have exhausted any economic reserves of even common materials. (on present day Terra, current rates will begin exhausting reserves in the next few centuries, or even decades. Scary.) Even iron ore reserves may only last several centuries for an industrial civilization in the low billions.
IMTU, the need to secure sources of raw materials is one of the major drivers of wars. (along with nationalism and disputed claims to various thrones and territories).
Ore reserves, at least concentrated enough to make mining worthwhile, requires geologic activity, which means larger sized worlds (size 5-6 and up, the higher the better), gas giant moons under tidal stress, or both. IMTU, strip mining with bulldozers, backhoes, dump trucks and dynamite is more efficient then asteroid mining.
This leads all leads to trade, of course.
Interesting note: it might actually be more efficient to ship iron ore through jump to a planet with coal and limestone then to move coal and limestone to a vacuum world, then ship steel out. At least as long as the steel is used to make products on the world the iron ore is shipped to, and then used there, rather then on the planet it's mined on.
But then, no one lives on your vacuum mining world, and lots of people live on that nearby high population planet, and the factories are there, so the ore will be shipped out at first. And since that's the way it started, that's the way the trade patterns, mills, factories and population will develop, and fix that pattern into place for a long time.
Apparently, by TL8, maybe TL7, Plastics don't have to be made from petroleum;
http://www.uu.nl/university/interna...rrent/Pages/Plasticsmadewithoutpetroleum.aspx
http://www.rdmag.com/news/2012/02/catalyst-allows-plastics-be-made-without-petroleum
I can see TL8 this being a New Tech and by TL9 or 10 it is mature enough to be common place.
http://www.uu.nl/university/interna...rrent/Pages/Plasticsmadewithoutpetroleum.aspx
http://www.rdmag.com/news/2012/02/catalyst-allows-plastics-be-made-without-petroleum
I can see TL8 this being a New Tech and by TL9 or 10 it is mature enough to be common place.
epicenter00
SOC-13
I have a theory that a lot of worlds the TU are stuck at certain tech levels because merchants introduce a glut of imported resources, and because shortages are the force that drives so much innovation, innovation would be blunted quite a bit on a world where interstellar merchants could make up for the shortfall.
For instance, there may be a planet where petrochemicals are still used as fuel for vehicles, energy production, and production of a lot of chemicals (like our world today). We're discussing a lot about Peak Oil and so on, and petrochemical prices are on the rise so increasingly we're looking at alternatives.
However, what if tomorrow friendly Vilani showed up to Earth and told us: "Yeah, we can sell you petrochemicals for 65USD per barrel. As much as you want. There's a place we know of with seas of the stuff. No, we're not telling you. It's our secret."
Our industries wouldn't change, I don't think. Not when we could just keep going the way we're going; no fooling with new technologies, research grants would largely dry up, we could just keep using the same factories and processes we use now with only small, incremental improvements.
For instance, there may be a planet where petrochemicals are still used as fuel for vehicles, energy production, and production of a lot of chemicals (like our world today). We're discussing a lot about Peak Oil and so on, and petrochemical prices are on the rise so increasingly we're looking at alternatives.
However, what if tomorrow friendly Vilani showed up to Earth and told us: "Yeah, we can sell you petrochemicals for 65USD per barrel. As much as you want. There's a place we know of with seas of the stuff. No, we're not telling you. It's our secret."
Our industries wouldn't change, I don't think. Not when we could just keep going the way we're going; no fooling with new technologies, research grants would largely dry up, we could just keep using the same factories and processes we use now with only small, incremental improvements.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
There are a number of variants of this: Many elements can be recovered chemically rather than through smelting. Here it might be cheaper to ship in the necessary components for extraction and then remove the metals locally (at least in a basic primary state) to somewhere where more advanced methods on the concentrated elements can be carried out.
Or, a process might be best done in very low gravity so a world that is high gravity and having the necessary elements would ship them off world to be processed. It might not be practical in-system for various reasons like lack of a suitable planet or satellite, lack of the necessary technology, lack of an incredibly expensive facility available in a neighboring system, etc.
That last would be a good reason in general: You have a relatively low tech world with raw materials that mines them next to a high tech world that turns them into finished valuable products. The high tech world has serious enviromental laws preventing local exploitation of resources....
These things are common even on Earth today and in the past.
For example, the Rum "triangle" that existed in colonial America. Sugar cane was grown in the Carribean, shipped to America as raw (brown) sugar, distilled into rum, and then shipped to Britain for use (including their Navy).
Cotton from America, India, and Egypt fed textile mills in England for decades as the world producer.
The same can be said for steel mills, and many other industries in the past and today. Why not the same in the future?
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In the case of petrochemicals, the contamination effect they have could go against your theory. For other materials/goods (metals, etc.) I agree with the possibility you tell here.
That's the most elegant explanation for Traveller's varied tech levels that I've ever seen.
Hans
Research grants haven't fueled most of tech innovations. Also, what is the planet exchanging for all that oil? It would be a net drain on an economy. Someone would get tired of that and push through nuke power to replace most consumption of petrol...
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
I could also see worlds where the government or ruling class decide to keep it "rustic," rural, or otherwise technology limited because they like it that way. For their own needs, where money is of little importance and they have lots to spend, they import the high tech luxuries they want or need to maintain their own extravagant lifestyles.
This too would seem to make some degree of sense in a Traveller setting where there is a nobility that is near omni-present throughout known space.
Maitrejeanthierry
SOC-7
Definitely. Huge scenario potential there.
