Retcon Jump 9 and Hop 1 in 1115 OTU?

[Nathan Brazil]

As a separate, but related discussion to 9G drives, Are there the following FTL drives around now in 3rd Imperium TL 15? Are these now retcons because of T5.09?

Early Jump 7
Prototype Jump 8
Experimental Jump 9
Experimental Hop 1

If not, why not?

 

[jcrocker]

If you want to retcon them, feel free. Otherwise I'll assume that groups of player characters had a series of really rotten rolls and all the demonstration ships were lost in jump.

 

[whulorigan]

As a separate, but related discussion to 9G drives, Are there the following FTL drives around now in 3rd Imperium TL 15? Are these now retcons because of T5.09?

Early Jump 7
Prototype Jump 8
Experimental Jump 9
Experimental Hop 1

If not, why not?

There is currently no evidence of the existence of such drives in the 1116 OTU (secret Imperial or Megacorporate research facilities may have them, however).

In general, the Experimental/Prototype/Early spectrum represents what could be built at that TL given pre-existing knowledge of said higher level technology. It does not automatically imply that said technology is available for cultures going thru the process of research and development to discover new technologies.

Many things can be built at lower TL once you already know the science and engineering principles behind them. But building them for the first time is often a slower learning and development curve.

 

[mike wightman]

Hop drive doesn't exist in 1116 because it uses the same genius level breakthrough discovery as the other FTL drives.
You don't automatically start researching Hop once you reach a certain TL, even if you know about jump.

The interesting thing is that a high TL culture may never discover a lesser drive, and yet make the breakthrough to discover one of the later drives.

There's also the possibility of reality manipulation technology at deity like TLs being able to change the drive paradigm.

 

[McPerth]

As a separate, but related discussion to 9G drives, Are there the following FTL drives around now in 3rd Imperium TL 15? Are these now retcons because of T5.09?

Early Jump 7
Prototype Jump 8
Experimental Jump 9
Experimental Hop 1

If not, why not?

There are many places in old (CT/MT) publications where it is cleary explicited that jumps above 6 are seen as imposible in Godlen Age.

In fact, it is explicied that maximum jump posible at any TL is not posible until de development of ship sized portals, but this seems to have been retconned in T5...

Even with this retcon, I'd say in the Golden Age it is believed as imposible (even if wrong), and so there are no higher drives (though they keep ressearching for them). Of course YMMV, as can YTU...

Another point about J7 is that (unless T5 has changer fuel rules) it would need 70%of the ship for fuel. Add to this the needed jumps (in HG2 would be 8% volumen) and the PP (7%, also according HG2), and you have only 15% for maneuver, bridge/controls/accomodations and payload. So, unless percentages are lower in T5, or the fuel needs are reduced with TL (as in MT), it would be very problematic to build a J7 ship, and J8+ probably imposible.

Of course, Hop Drives are enterily another matter...

 

[aramis]

T5 doesn't change the maximum available in the Post SRW (M1000), Classic (M1100), Rebellion (M1116), Hard TImes (M1120, New Era (M1200), nor "Dawn of the 4th Imperium" (M1250) eras.

It's Implied strongly in T5.09 that while the TL minimum must be met, meeting the TL minimum isn't sufficient in and of itself to develop the various FTL drives. (p 334)

J7 isn't available (IIRC what Marc said in a draft) until about 1400 [g="Third Imperium Calendar]3IC[/g].
H1 isn't available until shortly prior to 1900 3IC. And, despite some TL 20+ worlds, it won't have S1 in that timeframe, either.

Likewise, Drop Tanks aren't developed until after the SRW, and not commercially available until around the 5FW. The tech, however, is about TL 9...

And further, J7/8/9 have rather impressive fuel requirements until one converts to Antimatter slugs... which cut the fuel to (Jn)%

 

[whulorigan]

And further, J7/8/9 have rather impressive fuel requirements until one converts to Antimatter slugs... which cut the fuel to (Jn)%

Of course, post TL14+ you potentially have the Collector as a power source for Jump Drives as well. But I haven't done the math to see how much space a Collector + Conventional Power Plant + Conventional PP Normal Ops Fuel would take up compared to a Conventional PP + Conventional PP Jump Fuel + Conventional PP Normal Ops Fuel.

(Keeping in mind that that the Conventional PP only needs to be large enough to support the M-Drive, not the J-Drive, if a Collector is used).

 

[robject]

As a separate, but related discussion to 9G drives, Are there the following FTL drives around now in 3rd Imperium TL 15? Are these now retcons because of T5.09?

Early Jump 7
Prototype Jump 8
Experimental Jump 9
Experimental Hop 1

If not, why not?

Note my reply in the Darrian thread. We've known since Classic Traveller days that Imperial researchers were banging heads about "what comes after Jump 6". T5's core rules go out of their way to prevent any Early ship drive tech from actually being effective. It feels like a kludge, but it was written to prevent "this sort of thing" but to allow that research drives do exist.

 

[robject]

Of course, post TL14+ you potentially have the Collector as a power source for Jump Drives as well. But I haven't done the math to see how much space a Collector + Conventional Power Plant + Conventional PP Normal Ops Fuel would take up compared to a Conventional PP + Conventional PP Jump Fuel + Conventional PP Normal Ops Fuel.

(Keeping in mind that that the Conventional PP only needs to be large enough to support the M-Drive, not the J-Drive, if a Collector is used).

I've designed ships with Collectors, including a TL15 Droyne Scout.

At TL14-15, it's not quite a game changer. It lets ships cross voids... which would be a game changer if it weren't so dang slow at TL14 and TL15. It does have implications for Virus. Note that ships crossing voids at Jump 2 need to ensure they have sufficient power plant fuel (say, 4 months -- maybe 8% hull volume or more). Now TL16, Collector-3, gets you across the big void in 9 weeks.