Promotion/Commission interaction

[mvdwege]

I have some trouble reading the career charts for Spacer/Soldier/Marine.

Specifically, the sequence according to chargen is:

• Enlisted Promotion
• Commission
• Officer Promotion if officer

Does this effectively mean that a rating can roll for Promotion, get promoted, then roll for Commission, and then roll for Officer Promotion again?

Or does rolling for Commission replace Enlisted Promotion? If so, do I still get to roll for Officer Promotion? Or does the roll for Officer Promotion only apply if you start the term as an officer?

 

[mike wightman]

In the real world enlisted personnel commissioned as officers usually advance to a rank higher than an officer fresh out of the academy pretty quickly.

So I would go with the sequence as written.

 

[Reban]

Does this effectively mean that a rating can roll for Promotion, get promoted, then roll for Commission, and then roll for Officer Promotion again?

Or does rolling for Commission replace Enlisted Promotion? If so, do I still get to roll for Officer Promotion? Or does the roll for Officer Promotion only apply if you start the term as an officer?

No, you're making one promotion roll per term. So you get promoted to Sergeant, the brass say; "Hey we see potential in you". You try for a commission, you fail you return to unit as a Sergeant or you succeed and start your life as an officer with rank O1. You'll need to serve a term as O1 before you can be considered for promotion again.

From p.74

If Spacer, Soldier, Marine enlisted rank, roll the Commission Target. If successful, the character moves to the Officer rank track and receives Officer1.

My emphasis. In real world militaries you need time in rank before you can be promoted to ensure you can do the job. On the other hand T5 bases promotion chances on SOC so if you want a high SOC character to pull strings and shoot up the ranks you could allow extra rolls. The draw back there is that in a SOC based system commissioned officers coming up from the ranks may be frowned upon.

 

[pendragonman]

Having made more than half a dozen T5 Marines so far, concur with Reban's reasoning.

Also jives with my RL experience.

 

[mike wightman]

I have a friend who is ex-Royal Marines; he enlisted and made it to sergeant by the end of his enlistment.

He was offered a commission to stay in and was immediately bumped to Captain.

In his experience most enlisted ranks commissioned as officers do not waste their time as 2nd lieutenants.

 

[Spartan159]

I have some trouble reading the career charts for Spacer/Soldier/Marine.

Specifically, the sequence according to chargen is:

• Enlisted Promotion
• Commission
• Officer Promotion if officer

Does this effectively mean that a rating can roll for Promotion, get promoted, then roll for Commission, and then roll for Officer Promotion again?

Or does rolling for Commission replace Enlisted Promotion? If so, do I still get to roll for Officer Promotion? Or does the roll for Officer Promotion only apply if you start the term as an officer?

Errata changed this to Officer promotion, commission, Enlisted promotion, or so I thought.

 

[Higgipedia]

Errata changed this to Officer promotion, commission, Enlisted promotion, or so I thought.

You, sir, are correct.

 

[Reban]

Just did a quick survey of the career options for the British army and Us Army for commissioning from the ranks.

In the BA soldiers can gain two types of commission: Direct Entry (DE) and Late Entry (LE). Direct entry is for younger soldiers and junior NCOs. they can apply for a commission in the same way as a civilian does and if accepted they do the standard year in Sandhurst Military Academy followed by 6 months Corps specific and then assignment to a unit as a junior officer. they progress normally from that point on.

Older more experienced NCOs may gain a Late Entry commission. This retains valuable on the job knowledge but the career path for the officer may be more limited filling rolls such as Adjudant and then Staff Officer.


For the US Army the path seems to be for a qualifying soldier to apply to Officer Candidate School from where he or she is commissioned as a junior officer. Warrant Officers may also gain a commission. Since their rank is roughly equivalent to junior officers they may be commissioned with a higher rank, from which comes the term Mustang Officer.


Every army does it differently based on culture. Smaller armies may identify potential officer candidates earlier and put them through the normal entry path. Armies with significant numbers of Warrant Officers or specific technical requirements may commissionto a specified rank with a pay grade that reflects the candidates professional knowledge.


What does this mean for T5? Well the career resolution system doesn't take account of professional knowledge, age or any other characteristic that may recommend a ranker as an executive leader. T5 uses Soc to determine if you cut it as an officer. I'm still sticking to what I said in my first post but again I'll say if the ref thinks that a CPO or Master Sergeant has served long enough and gained enough professional skill allow the second roll to see if they progress to 1st Lt. or start them as a Captain.


One other thing Lieutenants and Captains are historically considered Company Officers with Majors and above being considered Field Officers. Its a hierarchy within a hierarchy. So even if you promote from the ranks, don't promote above Captain. Allow your character some time at Company level rank before they are thrust into the politics that comes with Field rank.

I hope this is of some help.

 

[Reban]

Errata changed this to Officer promotion, commission, Enlisted promotion, or so I thought.

Maybe I'm missing something but that doesn't change the basis of OP's question. Or am I missing something?

 

[Bloo]

You, sir, are correct.

Which leaves new errata needed for the page 79 checklists.

 

[Spartan159]

Maybe I'm missing something but that doesn't change the basis of OP's question. Or am I missing something?

What it means is that you can't get an enlisted promotion, commission and then officer promotion in one term.

Are you an officer? No- Go to next step, Yes- Roll for promotion
Are you an officer? No- Roll for possible commissioning as an O1, Yes- next step
Are you an officer? No- Roll for enlisted promotion

 

[mike wightman]

And yet in the real world and by the rules as written you can...

 

[Reban]

What it means is that you can't get an enlisted promotion, commission and then officer promotion in one term.

Are you an officer? No- Go to next step, Yes- Roll for promotion
Are you an officer? No- Roll for possible commissioning as an O1, Yes- next step
Are you an officer? No- Roll for enlisted promotion

Even so part of what Mvdwege seemed to be asking was did the sequence work as:

Are you an officer? No- Roll for possible commissioning as an O1, Yes- next step
Reset because you are now an officer
Roll for promotion

It doesn't, because as I understand it you have to serve a term as O1 so you can't be commissioned from the ranks as an O1 and be promoted to O2 in a single term.


@ mike wightman if you can get two promotions and a commission in 4 years you're either over qualified for the initial rank or your military is in dire need of qualified officers. But as far as i can see T5's RAW doesn't support this.

 

[McPerth]

It doesn't, because as I understand it you have to serve a term as O1 so you can't be commissioned from the ranks as an O1 and be promoted to O2 in a single term.

Not having read T5, I must state that this would no be coherent with previous versions, where you could be promoted the same term you were commisioned (as shown quite well in the Character Generation Example in page 26 CT:Bk1*, where Alexander L. Jamison is both commisioned and promoted in his first term).

Same example (also being commisioned and promoted on A. L. Jamison's first term) is shown in page 25 of the T4 main book (direct precursor of T5, as I understand it).

EDIT: and for what's worth (as I've already stated I see MgT as a distinct evolutionary line from CT that the one that lead to T5 through T4), in MgT LBB2:HG, page 40, Character Creation Example (the only one I've read), Hared Haradson is also commisioned and promoted on his first term.

*FFE reprint

 

[mike wightman]

So according to this interpretation I can be commissioned as an officer in my first term and be promoted to O2.

But if I enlist and am commissioned from the ranks I have to spend 4 years as O1 before promotion to O2?

Absolute twaddle.

Doesn't happen in the real world, doesn't make sense in the game.

 

[McPerth]

As said several times, I have no access to T5, but, speaking from the coherence with previous versions POV, the logic would be to first try to comisión and then to promote, regardless if you were commisoined (in what case you'll try to promote to as officer) or you weren't (in which case you'll be promoted as enlisted).

If you are first promoted as enlisted and then commisoned, I personally (once more, not having read T5) would ignore the enlisted promotion and allow trying to promote as officer, so that having been promoted as enlistes would not be a handicap for your career as officer.

 

[Reban]

If a character takes pre-career options such as Military Academy or OTC they recieve a Commission and start their career in the military with Rank O1. When they role for officer promotion in the first term they may be promoted to rank O2.

If the character takes a direct entry option they enlist as E1 and roll for a Commission. If they receive a commission they are now rank O!.

The important bit is the sequence above that has been corrected by errata.

Originally Posted by Spartan159
What it means is that you can't get an enlisted promotion, commission and then officer promotion in one term.

Are you an officer? No- Go to next step, Yes- Roll for promotion
Are you an officer? No- Roll for possible commissioning as an O1, Yes- next step
Are you an officer? No- Roll for enlisted promotion

Commissioning comes after the chance for officer promotion in a term. So if you a direct entry officer you'll spend your first term as O1. Attending a Military Academy or OTC means you have a one term promotional advantage.

This is specifically in Military careers: Soldier, Spacer and Marine. I'll have a quick look at the Merchant career which parallels your CT and T4 examples.

 

[McPerth]

I have some trouble reading the career charts for Spacer/Soldier/Marine.

Specifically, the sequence according to chargen is:

• Enlisted Promotion
• Commission
• Officer Promotion if officer

Does this effectively mean that a rating can roll for Promotion, get promoted, then roll for Commission, and then roll for Officer Promotion again?

Or does rolling for Commission replace Enlisted Promotion? If so, do I still get to roll for Officer Promotion? Or does the roll for Officer Promotion only apply if you start the term as an officer?

The important bit is the sequence above that has been corrected by errata.

What it means is that you can't get an enlisted promotion, commission and then officer promotion in one term.

Are you an officer? No- Go to next step, Yes- Roll for promotion
Are you an officer? No- Roll for possible commissioning as an O1, Yes- next step
Are you an officer? No- Roll for enlisted promotion

Commissioning comes after the chance for officer promotion in a term. So if you a direct entry officer you'll spend your first term as O1. Attending a Military Academy or OTC means you have a one term promotional advantage.

This is specifically in Military careers: Soldier, Spacer and Marine. I'll have a quick look at the Merchant career which parallels your CT and T4 examples.

See that the algorithm shown by Spartan does not match with the sequence given by mvdwege, so I cannot tell which of them is the correct one in T5.

According to the sequence given by mvdwege, the algorithm should be:

1. Are you an officer? No- roll for enlisted promotion, Yes- go step 3
2. Are you an officer? No (as if you are you skip this step)- Roll for possible commissioning as an O1,
3. Are you an officer? Yes - Roll for officer promotion

If a character takes pre-career options such as Military Academy or OTC they recieve a Commission and start their career in the military with Rank O1. When they role for officer promotion in the first term they may be promoted to rank O2.

If the character takes a direct entry option they enlist as E1 and roll for a Commission. If they receive a commission they are now rank O1.

In previous versions, if you went to Accademy (or OTC/NOTC in College) you began the second term as O1, while if you were promoted from the ranks (via comisión/OCS) you could begin it as O2. That made posible to have a quicker career in you promoted from ranks tan in you attand Accademy/College (unless you attand medical school, in which case you ended second term as O3).

 

[Reban]

Okay McPerth I've reviewed the Merchant career as per your query.

To start off in the Merchant career as a Temp is automatic. A temp is an unskilled deckhand or apprentice merchant. To begin as a Merchant Officer (M1) roll vs Int.


There isn't a Commission roll in the Merchant career, rather a rating makes the Officer promotion roll

Roll Officer Promotion vs Terms x2​

So an R0 Spacehand would have to throw 2 or less, a temp hasn't served a term yet so shouldn't be able to gain promotion (correct me if I'm wrong on this point).

In the career sequence Officer promotion comes before Ratings promotion so:

Jack is a smart lad with a head for business he signs on with a merchant ship, does an intelligence test and is entered in the ships muster book as Merchant Officer (M1) Jack, Fourth Officer of the SS Capitalist, the ships's steward (he recieves the automatic skill Steward).

Dick is not good for much really so he signs on with a merchant ship as a Temp. He serves 1 term aboard, learns a lot and takes the test for promotion to Officer (he needs 2 or less, he rolls a 6). Dick has more luck with his test for promotion to rating (he needs 9 or less he rolls 6) and becomes a Spacehand (R1)

The Merchant career specifically says: "Any character may
begin as a Temp, and may follow the limited promotion potential of a Rating.
Officer Promotion for a Rating advances the character to Fourth Officer."

My emphasis there.

 

[Higgipedia]

For the US Army the path seems to be for a qualifying soldier to apply to Officer Candidate School from where he or she is commissioned as a junior officer. Warrant Officers may also gain a commission. Since their rank is roughly equivalent to junior officers they may be commissioned with a higher rank, from which comes the term Mustang Officer.

Partly. There are three routes to commissioning in the U.S. Army: ROTC, OCS, and West Point. All three are actually options for active duty and reserve component soldiers.

In Traveller terms, provided the soldier has completed their FIRST term as an adult as a soldier, they can still enter the Service Academy. Otherwise, that door shuts. (I forget if it's under-22 or 23 for eligibility, I enlisted at 26 and was never eligible)

With regard to ROTC, there is the Green to Gold program which allows soldiers to break service and finish school through a school with an ROTC program.

And OCS, which is pretty straight forward.

Every army does it differently based on culture. Smaller armies may identify potential officer candidates earlier and put them through the normal entry path. Armies with significant numbers of Warrant Officers or specific technical requirements may commission to a specified rank with a pay grade that reflects the candidates professional knowledge.

Again, in the U.S. Army (the only one I can speak of with any authority), Warrant Officers actually *ARE* commissioned officers once they are promoted from WO1 to CW2.

The U.S. Army also has the O-1E, O-2E, and O-3E ranks which actually pay more, provided you have been enlisted for a certain amount of time (I forget which), regardless of your method of commissioning.

Professionals (Medical, Lawyers, and Spiritual) enter at a rank based upon their education. J.D.s and Masters of Divinity get you in at the O-2 level, Doctoral degrees at the O-3 level. Sometimes, even higher. We had a battalion surgeon with the 82nd ABN in Iraq who came in as an O-4 because he was an M.D. with 10 years surgical experience.

There are also pay bumps to help bridge the gap between military pay and civilian pay, which can be quite handsome for some of the more specialized fields of medicine.

What does this mean for T5? Well the career resolution system doesn't take account of professional knowledge, age or any other characteristic that may recommend a ranker as an executive leader. T5 uses Soc to determine if you cut it as an officer. I'm still sticking to what I said in my first post but again I'll say if the ref thinks that a CPO or Master Sergeant has served long enough and gained enough professional skill allow the second roll to see if they progress to 1st Lt. or start them as a Captain.

Yeah, I'm not sure how to properly introduce more "realism" into the system without getting too granular. PLUS, the BA and US Army of 2013 bear little resemblance to the armies of 1913 or 1813. Who KNOWS how things would roll in the Imperium.