Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
I haven't seen any discussion about this. Seems it would be an important item.
What would be the average size of such a missile?
Capabilities?
What would be the average size of such a missile?
Capabilities?
Planetary or Moon based missiles
- Thread starter Otto Harkaman
- Start date
Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
Well the German Rheintochter, a surface to air missile in WW2 was 1748kg.
Depends on which ruleset and which drive types.
To hit something in orbit from earth which a chem rocket, you need a big rocket. At least 10m x 2m, I suspect... that's 2Td+
With HEPlaR, you still run about 15 cubic meters (to hit efficent fusion engine). But the cost is MUCH higher.
Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
Have you ever seen anyone Aramis attempt to develop larger planetary missiles? Just curious about the whole thing. I thought the German missile looked pretty retro.
Invasion Earth presented Planetary Defense units: ground-based brigades, divisions, and corps "equipped with energy weapons and missiles capable of firing upon naval units. Thus, each PD unit has a bombardment factor, which is used much in the same manner of the bombardment factor of a naval unit."
The brigade units (10 batallion strength each) were mobile and had a strength about equal to that of a 50-ship SDB wing or a battle squadron - maybe equivalent to 50 F9 batteries? Range was limited to close orbit, so figure maybe 50,000 km. They fired up at orbiting ships at half strength, but I'd take that as a -1 to hit consistent with the way the game rules treat acceleration. You could use that to calculate parameters of a planetary missile defense system. The corps (100 batallion strength each) and division units (20 batallion strength each) were fixed installations but, based on remarks in Striker, likely included meson weapons modeled on those used by ships.
A tricky part would be figuring out how to integrate them into the space combat rules - mostly, what rules would you use for ships shooting back?
IE gave Earth a 4280 batallion-strong ground force of which 1/6 were PD troopers; the Terrans had been at war for a few years at that point, so it's not clear how representative that should be, but it gives you a ballpark. I'd say you need a respectable population - maybe in the 10s of millions - before you could field a planetary defense brigade, much less anything larger. Maybe a world with a population in the millions would field a single batallion with 10 or so missile batteries to keep destroyer-size raiders at bay, or perhaps you could argue for a few missile batteries around the Class A-B starports of smaller worlds just to keep the occasional pirate from blackmailing from orbit.
The brigade units (10 batallion strength each) were mobile and had a strength about equal to that of a 50-ship SDB wing or a battle squadron - maybe equivalent to 50 F9 batteries? Range was limited to close orbit, so figure maybe 50,000 km. They fired up at orbiting ships at half strength, but I'd take that as a -1 to hit consistent with the way the game rules treat acceleration. You could use that to calculate parameters of a planetary missile defense system. The corps (100 batallion strength each) and division units (20 batallion strength each) were fixed installations but, based on remarks in Striker, likely included meson weapons modeled on those used by ships.
A tricky part would be figuring out how to integrate them into the space combat rules - mostly, what rules would you use for ships shooting back?
IE gave Earth a 4280 batallion-strong ground force of which 1/6 were PD troopers; the Terrans had been at war for a few years at that point, so it's not clear how representative that should be, but it gives you a ballpark. I'd say you need a respectable population - maybe in the 10s of millions - before you could field a planetary defense brigade, much less anything larger. Maybe a world with a population in the millions would field a single batallion with 10 or so missile batteries to keep destroyer-size raiders at bay, or perhaps you could argue for a few missile batteries around the Class A-B starports of smaller worlds just to keep the occasional pirate from blackmailing from orbit.
I've done a few under FF&S, but I didn't go for minimum size. I used 10Td HEPlaR missiles at 15G or so, massive det-laser clusters intended to target multiple incoming landers
I've also designed a couple of laser robot boats under MT in the same range, but that was using the One Small Step rules and nukes.
I know a couple other people have, but I've not seen any posted online since a few for T4 crossed the TML.
IIRC, High Guard says planetary defenses are similar to ship based ones, thus missiles would be the standard, it is what I have always done. Planetary Defense Fortresses can be a real bear, max amor, endless turrets and bays, multiple meson spinals; and if it is a habitable high pop world, the ability to hold out forever.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
The infinitely powerful planetary fortress is one reason why I began to adopt rules from Pocket Empires (suitably houseruled) when I deal with planets.
However, a simple method I used before I found PE was to limit expenditure and say that ground based weapons were the same as ships. Turret missiles were SAMs, 50T bays could reach close (bombardment) orbit, and 100T missiles could fire out to full combat range.
However, a simple method I used before I found PE was to limit expenditure and say that ground based weapons were the same as ships. Turret missiles were SAMs, 50T bays could reach close (bombardment) orbit, and 100T missiles could fire out to full combat range.
Making it to 100D range from ground launch - realistic missiles have duration/scale issues.
OK, so range is the goal.
Frankly, I wonder if 'realistic' and 'ground launch' belong in the same sentence.
... but seriously, planetary defense missiles need to be stationed in orbit unless 'grav drives' render the planetary gravity well a moot issue. Orbital missiles can be ugly, unstreamlined lumps.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Well...
...they pretty much do, for a certain size, cost, and TL depending on the set of rules in use. Now whether that makes them economically and tactically useful is another matter.
Of course I'd put them in orbit or on an airless moon anyway for several other reasons.
OK, so range is the goal.
Frankly, I wonder if 'realistic' and 'ground launch' belong in the same sentence.
Orbital missiles can be ugly, unstreamlined lumps.
The first few waves worth, sure...
But the last ditch efforts may require assets which can't be as easily targeted... like SL-SOMs (Submarine Launched surface to orbit missiles).
Keeping in mind that an incoming group has the ability to fire a huge CLOUD of KCr10 command vector standard missiles to take out the first waves of defenses, stacking up 10-15 battery-rounds or more on a coast pattern, then using the LIDAR to light up targets for them as they cross in first, including your defense missiles and launchers. They're all going hot at once, and going to terminal self guidance once targets are acquired.
The defense can't (generally) afford to let that wall of missiles come in, so has to start launching the moment the swarm is detected... in hopes of taking out as much as possible before it overwhelms.
The missiles will generally drift a bit apart, so until the terminal braking, the will form a widening cloud, and thus make it harder to take them out; further, by being discretionary burn terminal self-guidance missiles, they're not high signature on the cloud, so they're small and low signature, and hard to detect or lock passively.
Ground based missiles make ideal final line defenses. They're not a 1st line of defense for any but the least adroit, but they are part of an overall package of defenses.
So lets get down to specifics, what TL and what mission
T4 FF&S
TL-16 point defense:
HEPLAR + Fusion plant, armour 1 and 6 minutes of fuel unstreamlined 81 g's 60,000 KM powered range kenitic impactor with command guidance, 50,000 km laser communicator. 1 Dt turret can carry a bunch of these at .2685 m3 per missile 1 in the launcher and 31 in the ready magazine, rate of fire 4 per minutewith the installed autoloader. cost per round Cr 52,500 Maximum ROF and endurance can be supported by 4 master fire directors (28 missiles at TL 16)
T4 FF&S
TL-16 point defense:
HEPLAR + Fusion plant, armour 1 and 6 minutes of fuel unstreamlined 81 g's 60,000 KM powered range kenitic impactor with command guidance, 50,000 km laser communicator. 1 Dt turret can carry a bunch of these at .2685 m3 per missile 1 in the launcher and 31 in the ready magazine, rate of fire 4 per minutewith the installed autoloader. cost per round Cr 52,500 Maximum ROF and endurance can be supported by 4 master fire directors (28 missiles at TL 16)
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This doesn't sound like anything I know of in the game, but there are a lot of game variants now, I don't know zip about even half of them.
I have to assume a huge cloud of missiles means a sizeable fleet on approach, and if they're targeting the planet, someone no longer has space assets to oppose them. That this someone hasn't surrendered yet suggests he either has defenses up to the task or is being foolishly stubborn - or maybe he wasn't given the option. Maybe he's stalling for time in the hope of reinforcements arriving.
I have no idea what the game counter for something like that was, but if I were forced to come up with something, it would center on a pattern-spread of high-yield nukes (and meson batteries if they're available), basically set up a flak defense; missiles aren't exactly tanks. That should bring the numbers down to something more manageable. Whatever that gets through that's still got to hit atmosphere before it hits anything else - that should make them easier to detect and shoot down.
I seem to remember a game like that. Oh yeah, Missile Command. :rofl:
You need to read Special Supplement 3, and think about the implications of it... I know I have. So have some of my prior players. We really made life ugly for each other.
Let's see...
_ TL __ kg ____ Cr _ System
__ 8 ___ 1 __ 1000 _ Intelligent Detonator
__ 8 ___ 1 ___ 400 _ Radio Sensor
_ 10 ___ 1 __ 1000 _ Mass Sensor
__ 9 ___ 1 ___ 800 _ Infared Sensor
__ 3 ___ 3 ___ 300 _ Controller
__ 9 __ 10 __ 1000 _ Force Focussing Warhead
__ – __ 16 __ 5600 _ Discretionary 6G engine
__ – __ 17 __ 6000 _ 42 G-Turns of fuel (7 turns)
==== ===== ======= = ================
_ 10 __ 50 _ 18100 _ 6G for 7Turns Intelligent detonator, Radio, Mass & Infrared Sensor doing 4 hits
Now, a smaller one...
_ TL __ kg ____ Cr _ System
__ 8 ___ 1 __ 1000 _ Intelligent Detonator
__ 8 ___ 1 ___ 400 _ Radio Sensor
__ 3 ___ 3 ___ 300 _ Controller
__ 9 __ 30 __ 3000 _ Force Focussing Warhead
__ – __ 16 __ 5600 _ Discretionary 6G engine
__ – ___ 8 __ 2880 _ 18 G-Turns of fuel (3 turns) (7.2kg)
==== ===== ======= = ================
_ 10 __ 50 _ 13180 _ 6G for 3 Turns Intelligent detonator, Radio Sensor, doing 12 hits.
At TL 12+, this badboy is Cr10,544 per unit.
Either of these are a bit more than I recalled, but are excellent swarm missiles.
Using the formulae, I can build faster missiles, too, in CT.
_ TL __ kg ____ Cr _ System
__ 8 ___ 1 __ 1000 _ Intelligent Detonator
__ 8 ___ 1 ___ 400 _ Radio Sensor
_ 10 ___ 1 __ 1000 _ Mass Sensor
__ 9 ___ 1 ___ 800 _ Infrared Sensor
_ 11 ___ 4 __ 1000 _ Neutrino Sensor
__ 3 ___ 3 ___ 300 _ Controller
__ 9 __ 10 __ 1000 _ Force Focussing Warhead
__ – __ 20 _ 12000 _ Discretionary 10G engine
__ – ___ 8 __ 3200 _ 20 G-Turns of fuel (2 turns)
==== ===== ======= = ================
_ 11 __ 50 _ 20700 _ 10G for 2 Turns Intelligent detonator, Neutrino, Radio, Mass & Infrared Sensor, doing 4 hits
At TL 13+, this one costs only Cr16,560 per each...
It's an insanely fast by CT standards, frightful expensive, but it's got all the eyes and can ignore some ECM.
(Note: The fuel rates would be sensible if the turns were a low double digit seconds duration, rather than the 15+ minutes of CT turns. They're insanely efficient, tho, by CT turns, and merely unreasonably high using MGT 6-minute turns...)
Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
Wow all interesting Carlobrand & Dragoner too much to reply too all at once. I was thinking on this level Aramis of actual missiles one might encounter in CT, thanks for the cool ideas. I was thinking about what missile might be shot at you from a planet I wasn't really thinking about large scale military actions but that's interesting also. The extra size would be about range.
This looks like a single shot launcher but in mayday we are using a one hour turn so there might be a reloading truck or tracked truck that could quickly reload this launcher. The initial targeting system unit could be numerous from inter-solar to advanced orbit.
Yes I think the planetary bombardment and defensive units are interesting in Invasion Earth. I guess this would be missile artillery in Striker.
This looks like a single shot launcher but in mayday we are using a one hour turn so there might be a reloading truck or tracked truck that could quickly reload this launcher. The initial targeting system unit could be numerous from inter-solar to advanced orbit.
Yes I think the planetary bombardment and defensive units are interesting in Invasion Earth. I guess this would be missile artillery in Striker.
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