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Personal and Technological Self-Sufficiency in RPGs

redwalker

SOC-12
Title: Personal and Technological Self-Sufficiency in RPGs

The motivation to play a particular role-playing game may stem from a felt lack of some desirable element of personal experience. A person who demonstrates empathy and personal social connectedness in a boring real life society may relish role-playing as a means of acting out more dramatic personal relationships and thus exercising his capacities for emotion.

I have noted that many technically skilled persons such as engineers play wizards in role-playing games. Wizards are like self-contained ammunition factories and infantry support weapons; they generate their ammunition by personal effort and can rain destruction at will, without appealing to patron deities, social groups, etc.

Some games encourage player characters to build up freeholds which are relatively self-sufficient. Other games may encourage player characters to climb a social hierarchy where they will have constant access to the services of minions -- but also constant responsibility to keep their minions in line. (Vampire is a notable example.) In such games, the character may be powerful, but primarily because of social connections, which may become the focus of the game.

The case of Traveller and its capacity to represent "Pocket Empires" is noteworthy.

The case of a Traveller campaign which allowed a party to create a self-sufficient colony by dint of the hard efforts and superior skills of the colonists is an interesting case.

Such a Traveller campaign would present a theme of self-sufficiency which seems to be anethema to Marc Miller's original vision of long, vulnerable interstellar supply lines which could cause a Long Night if they were to collapse, and highly complicated, decadent societies which could not preserve the skills that lifted them to a complex social state.

Traveller cannot model self-sufficient groups. I submit that it was designed to make such representations unlikely. Traveller has a vision of an empire with resemblances to Rome and to America. It is a somewhat authoritarian community, but it is profoundly communal -- it is difficult to tell stories about an entirely self-sufficient Traveller group. The party of player characters must necessarily interact with the community of (mostly Imperial) worlds, and it must be attentive to details such as legalities, cultures, and environments. It is a game that glorifies heroes who can adapt to existing communities rather than start new communities which enshrine their personal preferences.

If I were going to run a space opera campaign that allowed for the founding of new communities, or the possibility of technically self-sufficient communities, I would have to modify the Traveller rules beyond recognitiion, or else throw them out entirely and start over from scratch.
 
Originally posted by Red Walker:
If I were going to run a space opera campaign that allowed for the founding of new communities, or the possibility of technically self-sufficient communities, I would have to modify the Traveller rules beyond recognitiion, or else throw them out entirely and start over from scratch.
Uhh... no, I don't see that that follows...

First of all, Traveller's rules are relatively setting-independent. There are even rules guidelines for referees that want to alter the standard technology settings. For example: forms of FTL travel other than the jump drive.

Furthermore, you have lightly dismissed the fact that there _are_ rules for establishing pocket empires and colonies, by claiming that this is essentially some kind of aberration from the spirit of the game. Of course, this "spirit" is something you yourself have sucked out of your thumb.

It's true that the standard (OTU) setting does carry a considerable amount of baggage, but this setting is optional. In fact, it simply didn't exist when Traveller was first published. In some ways it's a little unfortunate that Traveller has become so closely associated with the OTU, since it might tend to discourage referees from developing their own universes, but there are still plenty of us out there who do. And more to the point, perhaps, setting material sells, which keeps the game in print, and gives us all kewl stuff to read, even if we never use it.

What aspects of the rules would you have to throw out? The trade rules? Hardly. There's nothing that directly makes trade essential to a particular planetary economy. What else, then?

What you would have to do is rewrite the setting a bit, but that's normal, and why you have things like world generation rules in the first place.

I think you are tilting at straw men here.
 
I agree with Alanb here Red. You seem to be ranting at the OTU rather than the rules per se.
If you don't like the OTU for all the reason's you have posted then change it. Why do we have acronyms like OTU IMTU IYTU? cause once you've got a copy of the rules anything you do with them IS "I"n "Y"our "T"raveller "U"niverse baby.
 
Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Red Walker:
If I were going to run a space opera campaign that allowed for the founding of new communities, or the possibility of technically self-sufficient communities, I would have to modify the Traveller rules beyond recognitiion, or else throw them out entirely and start over from scratch.
Uhh... no, I don't see that that follows...

First of all, Traveller's rules are relatively setting-independent. There are even rules guidelines for referees that want to alter the standard technology settings. For example: forms of FTL travel other than the jump drive.

Furthermore, you have lightly dismissed the fact that there _are_ rules for establishing pocket empires and colonies, by claiming that this is essentially some kind of aberration from the spirit of the game. Of course, this "spirit" is something you yourself have sucked out of your thumb.

It's true that the standard (OTU) setting does carry a considerable amount of baggage, but this setting is optional. In fact, it simply didn't exist when Traveller was first published. In some ways it's a little unfortunate that Traveller has become so closely associated with the OTU, since it might tend to discourage referees from developing their own universes, but there are still plenty of us out there who do. And more to the point, perhaps, setting material sells, which keeps the game in print, and gives us all kewl stuff to read, even if we never use it.

What aspects of the rules would you have to throw out? The trade rules? Hardly. There's nothing that directly makes trade essential to a particular planetary economy. What else, then?

What you would have to do is rewrite the setting a bit, but that's normal, and why you have things like world generation rules in the first place.

I think you are tilting at straw men here.
</font>[/QUOTE]Well, one big problem is that "Traveller" in my comment above has to be understood to mean "old-school Traveller" or "Classic Traveller," because that's the only kind I've examined in depth.

My basic point is that Traveller gives rules for all kinds of things -- characters, combat, starships, planets -- but it doesn't give any attention to the problems that would be central to my proposed campaign.

Traveller has a list of starship types. I don't need them if the campaign is about organic farming and won't have any starships.

Traveller has a list of small arms. I don't need them.

Traveller has a list of training programs, such as Mercenary, High Guard, Merchant Prince, Citizens of the Imperium. I also don't need those.

Traveller doesn't have rules for the nitrogen balance of soil, or how fifty species of flora and fauna might be present in a very simple window-box of roses.

Traveller does have rules for simulating starship combat in a fair amount of detail. It will allow you to roll for each meson battery that you have bearing. However it does not have rules for when your power drill will break, whether it needs an O-ring, and whether you can fabricate that O-ring with your machine shop. If it had those rules, Larsen wouldn't have had to flame Drakon about it in the colony thread -- he could have just quote the rule.

Traveller doesn't have any rules for monitoring or simulating social interactions in groups of several hundred people. I could make them up, working from texts of anthropology and urban planning -- but once I've made up all the important rules, why bother retaining the rules for small arms, spaceships, and mustering out?

In addition to ecology, there are some big problems of industrial engineering involved in the conflict of setting up a community. Traveller does not simulate the details of ecology or industrial engineering. It may have highly abstract rules that allow you to gloss over it entirely -- but I don't want to gloss over it.

I see several points:
1)Traveller's rules are setting-independent.
2)I have dismissed the rules for "pocket empires."
3)It's not clear what aspect of the rules I would throw out.
4)I am tilting at straw men.

To reply to your points in order:
1) True, but irrelevant to my point.
2) Possibly worthy, explained below.
3) I'll tell you what I'll throw out.
4) False, but very close to a true statement.

The rules for "pocket empires" don't appear in my copy of Traveller. I'm working from a reprint of "Books 0-8 - The Classic Books." I originally learned Traveller from a hardcover book circa 1984, so those were probably the 1981 rules.

It's possible that I could spend $40 and get a book called "Pocket Empires" which gives rules for establishing pocket empires. I'm not going to spend $40 for that book.

Am I tilting at straw men? No, that's false. However, it's very close to a true statement: "I am telling people in too much boring detail about a proposed mathematical simulation which is of no interest to them." So my comments are indeed obnoxious and useless to my audience - but not logically fallacious.
 
Um what is you point? What I getting is help my math book has nothing on shakespeare or anything on early american authors.
I have never heard of RPG with covers anything which you brought up.
 
Originally posted by jasper:
Um what is you point? What I getting is help my math book has nothing on shakespeare or anything on early american authors.
I have never heard of RPG with covers anything which you brought up.
If my post seems bizarre to the point of being meaningless, you can safely ignore it. If I haven't made myself clear by now, it's probably a lost cause.

Larsen and Drakon had a big argument about how quickly power tools would break.

If you like Simulationist games, you need rules that accurately simulate the conflict -- whether it's shooting a gun or over-using a power drill without proper maintenance.

However, if you don't want to go to the "Imperial Research Station" forum and try to read my ramblings, here are some better-written links:
http://indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/system_does_matter.html
http://indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/
 
Red Walker:

Since Classic Traveller (CT) is setting-independent your grievances with the Original Traveller Universe (OUT) are about the OTU and can be changed to your heart's desire. The OTU is a setting for people who don't want to create their own setting and came after the original CT rules. I have a pc in one such non-OTU setting currently.

I’ll try to address your main points here and give some suggestions. As always your mileage may vary (YMMV) and I hope this helps (HTH).


Self-Sufficient groups & Exploration

Gurps Traveller (GT) has Authenticists and I've made up a similar group Neo-Traditionalists for My Traveller Universe (MTU).

Authenticists recreate a certain point in time aiming for as much authenticity as possible and many would have to be able to survive on their own.

Neo-Traditionalists don't aim for 100% authenticity instead cherry pick what they like best out of a culture at a point in time and mix it, sometimes with a dash of other points in time / cultures, often also with current local culture. (by culture I include technology) So while not as likely to be self-sufficient some are.

I will agree that based on the CT era OTU books (not the rules esp. not books 1-3 which were the original CT) the Third Imperium has little opportunity for outside exploration. However the Zhodani (including the Core Expeditions), Solomani, and Aslan are colonizing and by no means are you limited to the default CT 1105+ setting wise. Even if you do use the default time / setting there are Scout survey updates and the various rift or refts or whatever they’re called. Also the Sword Worlds are starting up new colonies as they get squeezed further by the Imperium and the Darrians. (see the well-written GT: Sword Worlds and various CT sources) Finally Gateway (take a look at this site's front page) which takes place about a hundred years before has four sectors with a more open setting and thus more possibility for colonization.

So there is opportunity for exploration and the knowledge for self-sufficiency even in the OTU or a slightly modified MTU version of it. Even in the 11,000 or so worlds of the Third Imperium.


Rules

Frankly I have to ask, are you actually going to play a rpg or are you running a simulation? You don't need rules IMO for a lot of what you mention and it sounds like you have real life figures handy enough to add what realism you desire.

If you need CT rules for your power drill or rosebed (1) assign a TN and/or DMs based on your data and whatnot to growing roses and roll 2d6. If you don't have a copy of the CT task system I suggest you download it here. As for the social interaction, role play it out. CT does have a SOC stat and there are some social skills if you need rolls (as well as a reaction roll IIRC). Again base the TN on your data. Social rules aside from roleplay are developed in very few games (Pendragon, Heroquest, Call of Cthulhu, Unknown Horror come to mind) but could be adapted to CT.

The CT supplements reprint has more non-military service careers and there is nothing preventing you from making your own using the existing ones as a framework. There's even a form for it somewhere. IMO there's nothing wrong with an ex-Marine who's turned to farming or settles down on a new colony world. If nothing else there's always room for a baka rockhead to move things around, protect the colony from any hostile native lifeforms, and perhaps do some hunting.

Honestly I don’t see what Ron Edward’s article on Fantasy Heartbreakers has to do with Traveller and do not see the need for every little thing to be mapped out even in a simulationist game(2). I agree with the Baron here. ^_^

If you won't purchase additional rules but want additional rules well yes that does leave you with having to create additional rules. ^_^ As I've stated above I don't personally think you need many if any additional rules and you can use CT as a base both rules and settingwise.

"Traveller doesn't have rules for the nitrogen balance of soil, or how fifty species of flora and fauna might be present in a very simple window-box of roses."
If I could fit this in my sig it'd be there. The game's subtitle is Science-Fiction Adventure in the Far Future after all. :cool:

Casey (needs a Blue Sun now) ;)

(1) I can’t believe I’m typing this :D
(2) then again I prefer BRP to d20, BESM to Gurps or Hero, and think Risus is grand
 
Do it Roman Style. They gave land grants to legionaires when they retired so do the same for your military type.

Retired Marine forgoes pension for small landgrant on recently discovered/rediscovered planet which he decides to farm.

Maybe his parents were farmers and he has some basic knowledge in the area. He will also be able to defend his land rather well.
 
Originally posted by Spiderfish:
Do it Roman Style. They gave land grants to legionaires when they retired so do the same for your military type.

Retired Marine forgoes pension for small landgrant on recently discovered/rediscovered planet which he decides to farm.

Maybe his parents were farmers and he has some basic knowledge in the area. He will also be able to defend his land rather well.
Good point and the Imperium already has some resemblances to the Roman Empire. There's a good book by the guy who did Castle, City, Man-of-War etc. on this.

IIRC the various Alexandrias and similar cities of the Hellenistic world were settled with a core of veterans and their families and such.

One thing to keep in mind with even the 3I at its height is not every world is TL12+* and space travel is by no means a normal everyday event or even like taking a plane for a lot of people, especially travelling between star systems. Most player characters are the folk who do, the Travellers. ^_^ So there's a good chance that at least some worlds in a sub-sector let alone a sector would have people with such knowledge.

As well as those wacky Authenticists and Neo-Traditionalists. They're also a fun way to use stuff from now back to the dawn of time in game.

Casey
 
Originally posted by Red Walker:
Title: Personal and Technological Self-Sufficiency in RPGs

If I were going to run a space opera campaign that allowed for the founding of new communities, or the possibility of technically self-sufficient communities, I would have to modify the Traveller rules beyond recognitiion, or else throw them out entirely and start over from scratch.
Please see : Traveller: the New Era, World Tamer's Handbook. It contains a complete Traveller rules approved simulation of (re)building an independent colony. They include rules for social groups, industrial development and so on. They also include the rules for letting characters influence the outcomes of the results. Copies can be obtained for ~US$10 at many fine used gaming book stores online.

The reason your CT book (books 1-8) does not include this material is because no one at the time they were written thought a simulation of colonization was an interesting topic for a RPG. In fact, beyond the World Tamer's Handbook, I've seen only a few RPG books with rule for maintaining strongholds and none of them at this level. If the WTH doesn't have the rules of sufficient detail for your needs, you will need to write your own.
 
Originally posted by Casey:
Rules

Frankly I have to ask, are you actually going to play a rpg or are you running a simulation? You don't need rules IMO for a lot of what you mention and it sounds like you have real life figures handy enough to add what realism you desire.

If you need CT rules for your power drill or rosebed (1) assign a TN and/or DMs based on your data and whatnot to growing roses and roll 2d6. If you don't have a copy of the CT task system I suggest you download it here.

...
Honestly I don’t see what Ron Edward’s article on Fantasy Heartbreakers has to do with Traveller and do not see the need for every little thing to be mapped out even in a simulationist game(2). I agree with the Baron here. ^_^

If you won't purchase additional rules but want additional rules well yes that does leave you with having to create additional rules.
Thanks very much for the link to the download.

Currently what I've got is a mess of half baked notions. If they get much, much simpler, they will be playable with dice and paper, and they will be a traditional dice-and-paper RPG. But it looks likely that they will get more complicated and be released as a freeware computer game, if they get released at all.

I have no objection to creating new rules, I just felt it was necessary to point out that I felt the need to do so. However, since someone else has posted the info about the World Tamer's Handbook, I think I will pursue that before I jump into my rule creation.

Thanks.
 
Originally posted by tjoneslo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Red Walker:
Title: Personal and Technological Self-Sufficiency in RPGs

If I were going to run a space opera campaign that allowed for the founding of new communities, or the possibility of technically self-sufficient communities, I would have to modify the Traveller rules beyond recognitiion, or else throw them out entirely and start over from scratch.
Please see : Traveller: the New Era, World Tamer's Handbook. It contains a complete Traveller rules approved simulation of (re)building an independent colony. They include rules for social groups, industrial development and so on. They also include the rules for letting characters influence the outcomes of the results. Copies can be obtained for ~US$10 at many fine used gaming book stores online.

The reason your CT book (books 1-8) does not include this material is because no one at the time they were written thought a simulation of colonization was an interesting topic for a RPG. In fact, beyond the World Tamer's Handbook, I've seen only a few RPG books with rule for maintaining strongholds and none of them at this level. If the WTH doesn't have the rules of sufficient detail for your needs, you will need to write your own.
</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks very much for the link. I've found a copy on eBay. It looks like the book that I was wishing for really does exist. When I wrote the original post, I had thought that it was a natural market demand but that no one had ever supplied it. Now I see that someone has in fact supplied it. I will definitely check it out before I try to write Traveller rules in its subject area.

Thanks very much.
 
Incidentally, I forgot when writing my original post to explain what relevance Ron Edwards has to anything.

Well, Ron Edwards wrote an award-winning independent RPG and I get a lot of ideas by reading his thoughts at
indie-rpgs.com

I had forgotten, of course, that most people have no idea who he is or why anyone might care.

Thanks also to Casey and Spiderfish for the story hooks and setting ideas.
 
Originally posted by Red Walker:
Thanks very much for the link. I've found a copy on eBay. It looks like the book that I was wishing for really does exist. When I wrote the original post, I had thought that it was a natural market demand but that no one had ever supplied it. Now I see that someone has in fact supplied it. I will definitely check it out before I try to write Traveller rules in its subject area.

Thanks very much.
May I also suggest that this forum may not be the best one for your interests. The members of this formum prefer discussions of more gamist/roleplaying aspects of Traveller. If you are interested in more accurate simulations in Traveller or new rules for accurate simulations, subscribe to Journal of the Travellers Aid Society online magazine. If you find gaming budget not up to the subscription price, I suggest the Traveller Mailing List. Be forewarned, this is a high volume list that frequently goes off topic in unexpected ways.

Both of these Traveller fora are inhabited with people who have vast experience in the fields you are interested in. You may find a better response to your queries there.
 
Originally posted by Red Walker:
Incidentally, I forgot when writing my original post to explain what relevance Ron Edwards has to anything. <snip>

Thanks also to Casey and Spiderfish for the story hooks and setting ideas.
You're welcome. I hope you find them useful. If nothing else expanding your view of the OTU and possibilities in Traveller.

FWIW I am well aware of Ron Edwards and what he's published and written. What I still don't understand is what the third article you linked to, Fantasy Heartbreakers, has to do with Traveller, Simulation, or this discussion.

Casey
 
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