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Perpetual Low-Tech Worlds

RainOfSteel

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For a long time now, I've wondered, variously, about why so many worlds stay so low-tech down through the centuries in the OTU. I've read many posts here and on the TML with equally varying explanations.

For some reason, a particular article by journalist David Maharaj of the LA Times hammered it home more than than others.

He writes a six part story. I found part 3: "Settling for castoff clothes," in my Sunday paper today and read it. It struck me that the situation must be the same in a great deal of the OTU, only more so, because the 21st Century USA is only a Pop 8 nation. There are no Pop A countries with us, yet.

I then found and read the other parts online. I leave the link here for those who would care to read them.

http://www.latimes.com/pennies
 
I dunno... the article's certainly an intriguing (and sobering/distrurbing) read and it's an interesting way to look at the OTU, but I'm not sure if it could quite work there. (I think I'm summarising correctly by saying that the gist of it being that the poor, lowtech countries survive on the castoffs of the rich, hightech ones - in part because they're forced to by economic tariffs set by the richer parts of the world. Is that right?).

That said, I'm not entirely certain which aspects of the article you're drawing Traveller analogies with here, so I'd rather you elaborated a bit before I commented any further
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Mostly I was thinking about part 3, the first article I read in the paper today.

The provisioning (or "dumping") of used US clothing to Sub-Saharan countries is destroying their textiles industries. People can't afford to work and make clothes that won't sell for as much as cheap foreign imports. As each textile mill closes, more people go out of work and then are forced to do make-work to get by for an absolute pittance.

In the OTU, if a High-Tech world starts rolling out cars built with TL-15 know-how, efficiency, reliability, capabilities, but for a TL-8 market, ships them over to a TL-8 world, and dumps them onto the market (say, paid for via economic development subsidies that weren't spent in the most intelligent way possible), can the TL-8 world's industry survive? I doubt it. Especially if the style of the import cars becomes instantly favored over the native car styles.

Now, in the OTU, this cannot happen across the board, it would just cost too much. But it does happen, a little bit. When such worlds need higher tech gear, they just import it. It would be vastly cheaper than paying the development cost. R&D capabilities begin to fail, industrial know-how disappears. Tech-loss can begin. I've read similar things in bits and pieces several times.

USA equals TL-8 nation dumping goods on a group of nations with TLs wildly varying from 3-6 (approx.).

I think the situation would be paralel but magnified if TL 13 to 15 worlds dumped goods on sub-TL-10 worlds.

What I was trying to say was that this article was the example that I found illustrated the general case with a crystal clarity that just wasn't there before.
 
The other parts of the overall article, while they undoubtedly happen in place to place in the OTU, do not represent the large scale OTU situation (at least as far as I've read).
 
Hmm. Problem there is that you can't really go dumping technical goods onto a lowtech society. The main example they use in the article is of clothing, which is common to both TLs. That would be easy to repair at low TLs too. In this case, the low TL industries have to fight against the higher TL imports and invariably can't win (unless the local government takes some kind of action against the imports, which it may not want to do for many reasons).

The problem with your cars example is that the low tech society can't maintain them - so the high tech society would have to move in car repairers, manufacturers etc into that country (which is a less subtle way to take over the local economy - though that should ideally actually end up (a) generating local jobs and (b) raising the local TL too).

I always imagined that the low tech worlds in the OTU were kinda like the worlds you see in the original Star Trek series. They're not members of the Feder... um, I mean Imperium but they're in Imperial space and shouldn't be tinkered with by entrepreneurial traders but should instead be left to develop on their own until such time as they're ready to join. The only problem with that of course is that in the OTU they're not all Red Zones.


Certainly, I'd say that no world below TL A should be on a jump route. Even if it's only 1 pc away from a jump line, I think that's enough to effectively put a world in the boondocks. And indeed, looking at the CT Solomani Rim book, I can't find any low tech worlds that are on jump routes, so that's good ;) .

I've often argued that I never saw the point of low tech worlds being part of the Imperium anyway. Most of the time, the Imperium gains nothing out of their presence. A TL 4 world has nothing practical to offer a TL F society, and is largely ill-equipped psychologically to deal with the existence of a vast star-spanning empire outside its atmosphere.

While art, culture, and possible wildlife and biological resources may be desired by the Imperium, they're very much fringe interests. For comparison, how many people in the western world are eager to spend lots of money on Papua New Guinean or Micronesian cultural exports? Not many, I'd imagine. (I won't use Africa as an example here - there's vastly more interest in that because people of African descent are fairly widespread throughout the western world).

That said, some of the low-tech cultures on Earth do have one big industry in common - tourism. Could some of the low-tech worlds of the Imperium be desirable tourist spots, despite their low technology? I'd imagine that in a hightech society there may well be lots of people eager to escape from the endless bustle of society (heck, people are getting fried enough in our own TL 8 societies today. I just have to watch Minority Report to shudder at how invasive some aspects of the future (personal advertising etc) could be).

What could tourism be like on such worlds? What would attract people to low tech worlds? What sort of planets would be most attractive? Worlds with low population, habitable environment (and life), and low technology (outside the hotels, anyway) would probably be the best tourist spots. There'd be plenty of room for safari hunting, enjoying the local culture, sight-seeing of natural wonders, romantic strolls along the beaches and so on - all away from the nonstop hubbub of home.

Of course, some worlds will just be straight-up poor - they'd be the Somalias, the Ethiopias, the Nuarus of the Imperium. They're probably crippled by internal war, or possibly by taxes that they have to pay to be members of the Imperium (possibly arranged so that the Imperium gets all the benefits and the world gets nothing but used). I can imagine holovid adverts in some cushty TL E suburb showing some hapless folks on the world nextdoor saying "the life support of the people of Shimiili is failing, their hydroponics are dying, and only your money can help them. Donate now..." (and probably having about as much long-term effect as such charity work does today, particularly if the situation is being kept that way by forces beyond the charities' control).

Ack, I'm brainstorming here, was any of that any use...? I do think it'd be interesting to use the poorer, lowtech worlds as parallels to the poorer countries on Earth today though. I think too many of them end up being used as cool adventuring spots while missing the bigger picture...
 
What would attract people to low tech worlds?
retirement. large expat communities exist in mexico and thailand.
I think too many of them end up being used as cool adventuring spots while missing the bigger picture...
.... thought adventuring was the bigger picture.
 
How about poor economic policies or something like that?

Probably a combination of a lot of things, though.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
The main example they use in the article is of clothing, which is common to both TLs. That would be easy to repair at low TLs too. In this case, the low TL industries have to fight against the higher TL imports and invariably can't win (unless the local government takes some kind of action against the imports, which it may not want to do for many reasons).
In the real world, the low TL world/nation does "win". By virtue of the fact that the locals "enjoy" a lower standard of living, thus human labor is cheaper in less developed countries. Not very many textiles get produced in the US.

One might assume that robotics will eventually supplant the cheap worker, but canon doesn't suggest that they are pervasive in many other areas. Perhaps in core worlds, they do, but out on the rim (in most areas that people actually use for gaming), it seems like robots are not considered pervasive. Even if they do, it is still possible that textiles produced on low tech worlds have some novelty compared to mass produced goods stamped out by massive robotic factories on distant worlds.

Traveller canon sort of does represent this sort of thing, with trade codes and technology price differences.

To get an idea of the effect of standards of living, read the sidebar about life in the far future in the T4 book.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that shipping is also more expensive and slower in the OTU than on the surface of Earth. The only worlds that you can really factor in to the progress of a world is those within a few jumps. Isolated worlds off mains may have even more difficulty getting a large enough amount of offworld goods that it can credibly impact their standard of living.

I've often argued that I never saw the point of low tech worlds being part of the Imperium anyway.
Another factor taken into account in TCS, which proportionally cuts down revenues from low tech worlds.

But I would not go so far as to say a low tech world has nothing to offer high tech society. Many Traveller resources (trade tables, adventures) seem to place a value on culture as oddities and curiosities, and things such as art objects are saleable cargoes.

Non-manufactured goods are relatively independant of TL. Some minimum technosavvy may be required for the locals, but the standards of living need not be high. Indeed, it might benefit the big multi-world agricultural combines if they are not; they have to pay the locals less, and might actively conspire against raising the local standard of living too high. I could also see farming equipment being sold to such corporations with selling points like "rugged, easy to operate and maintain."

Finally, I think its a mistake to assume that the Imperium always have a vested interest in raising the TL of any worlds it inducts. For the Imperium, some systems seem to be more important as refueling stops on major trade routes and/or territory inducted for security purposes than actually deriving economic benefit from what the world produces itself.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
retirement. large expat communities exist in mexico and thailand.
Mexico and Thailand aren't exactly "low tech". You don't see many large expat communities in Somalia or Papua New Guinea.


thought adventuring was the bigger picture.
For the purpose of gaming maybe. But I've never seen an adventure that actually shows the human misery that could be found in such places. It just seems to be reduced to "oh, this place is a dictatorship and the law level is oppressive". Maybe people want to avoid that in a roleplaying game (most of us see enough of it in reality), but I don't see why RPGs can't be as harsh in some places as the real world is.
 
Mexico and Thailand aren't exactly "low tech". You don't see many large expat communities in Somalia or Papua New Guinea.
I believe there's a distinction between "low tech" and "stone age".
I don't see why RPGs can't be as harsh in some places as the real world is.
"you present your valid papers listing your valid cargo. the harbor master decides he likes your ship and confiscates it for equipment violations. you are all arrested for resisting arrest. thirty years, the lot of you. roll up new characters."
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
I believe there's a distinction between "low tech" and "stone age".
I'm not seeing it. Certainly TL 7 or less may as well be as stone age to TL F as TL 0 or 1 are to us.


"you present your valid papers listing your valid cargo. the harbor master decides he likes your ship and confiscates it for equipment violations. you are all arrested for resisting arrest. thirty years, the lot of you. roll up new characters."
And the moral of the story is that characters don't go to such worlds to start with - therefore they don't make good adventure spots.
 
^ Oh, I don't know Mal, running some contraband past the customs patrol could be a lot of fun!

Even breaking your buddies out of the clink after they get caught drunk out in town after curfew makes for a good adventure, especially when you don't intend to ever come back to this hole again.

Then you have the makings for a good "The Rock" type adventure where they have to sneak back on to the planet for a righteous cause or money, which ever is the greater motivator.

I think your missing out on a whole lot of great story telling by not allowing your crews to land on these worlds.
 
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I believe there's a distinction between "low tech" and "stone age".
I'm not seeing it. Certainly TL 7 or less may as well be as stone age to TL F as TL 0 or 1 are to us.</font>[/QUOTE]well, personally, if I had to choose between 7 and 0, I'd pick the one with flush toilets.
 
I've always thought a great campaign for the right type of adventurers would be an 'assist' of a low-tech, desperate world: the adventurers' mercenary team are hired by someone to

(1) unite their world through conquest or
(2) steal technology from a world or
(3) protect their world from the depredations of pirate group/megacorp/evil federation XYZ or
(4) whatever.

Perhaps it's one of the players' homeworlds.

Whatever. Anyway, they show up and see just how bad things are. Thugs running the ruined cities, partisans carrying on guerilla warfare, disease, starvation, cheap and nasty drugs, prostitution of the young, you-name-it, totally hopeless. So the players get situated, dig in, start training local cadres and basically end up running a war effort and seeing an infrastructure go up.

The bad guys hit hard, then start taking losses, which boosts local morale and makes the bad guys really mad. So the players themselves have to carry out some high-skill attacks on a valuable enemy base, in order to prevent the bad guys from totally flattening their delicate work. Then a huge all-out pitched battle which brings in the Imperials, who wipe out the bad guys and give patents of nobility to the players, making them the de facto rulers of the world.

That kind of thing.
 
Originally posted by Ran Targas:
^ Oh, I don't know Mal, running some contraband past the customs patrol could be a lot of fun!

Even breaking your buddies out of the clink after they get caught drunk out in town after curfew makes for a good adventure, especially when you don't intend to ever come back to this hole again.

Then you have the makings for a good "The Rock" type adventure where they have to sneak back on to the planet for a righteous cause or money, which ever is the greater motivator.

I think your missing out on a whole lot of great story telling by not allowing your crews to land on these worlds.
Yeah, but is that really what Traveller's about? Go to some godforsaken, forgotten backwater world with a dodgy government, cause some trouble, and then bug out before the PCs can face the consequences because it doesn't matter if they don't go back there again?
 
Originally posted by robject:


<snip>

. . . who wipe out the bad guys and give patents of nobility to the players, making them the de facto rulers of the world.

That kind of thing.
I want to play in one of your games!
file_22.gif
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
<snip>

Yeah, but is that really what Traveller's about? Go to some godforsaken, forgotten backwater world with a dodgy government, cause some trouble, and then bug out before the PCs can face the consequences because it doesn't matter if they don't go back there again?
Well, a long time ago . . .

As it has been pointed out, Supplement 6: 76 Patrons, should really have been subtitled: 76 Criminal Activities.

A lot of Traveller really was played that way back in the day.
 
Yeah, but is that really what Traveller's about? Go to some godforsaken, forgotten backwater world with a dodgy government, cause some trouble, and then bug out before the PCs can face the consequences because it doesn't matter if they don't go back there again?


(well, depending on one's character, of course)
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
Hmm. Problem there is that you can't really go dumping technical goods onto a lowtech society. The main example they use in the article is of clothing, which is common to both TLs. That would be easy to repair at low TLs too. In this case, the low TL industries have to fight against the higher TL imports and invariably can't win
You are correct in what you say, but have mistaken what I said. A TL-15 air-raft, once broken on a TL-8 world will be useless without offworld repairs.

A TL-8 car built with TL-15 know-how, that, on the other hand, is a different story. It's every part is shaped and built in a such a manner that there is no difficulty in local TL-8 repair.

Just how expensive is this TL-8 car to produce? Isn't there some rule somewhere that talks about how, for each TL you go above a product's TL, it becomes less and less expensive to produce it (or am I imagining it . . . hmmm . . . I can't find it)?


Originally posted by Malenfant:
(unless the local government takes some kind of action against the imports, which it may not want to do for many reasons).

The problem with your cars example is that the low tech society can't maintain them - so the
The TL-8/15 car will suffer breakdowns far less than a locally produced car. In the late 70s, Detroit was stonkered by Japanese reliability, there are people today who won't buy American because of the legacy of a reputation for terrible reliability that Detroit has only just begun to dig itself out of starting in the 90s and working up, bit by bit into the modern day (and still, Japanese manufactures tend to get very high reliability marks; the last I checked Consumer Reports, higher than American). And as average joe-blow American bought the Japanese automobile in droves (even though built for better realiability at the same TL), the local TL-8 native will buy super-reliabile TL-8/15 car, maybe even if it costs a little more.


Originally posted by Malenfant:
Ack, I'm brainstorming here, was any of that any use...? I do think it'd be interesting to use the poorer, lowtech worlds as parallels to the poorer countries on Earth today though. I think too many of them end up being used as cool adventuring spots while missing the bigger picture...
Ah, it appears you did get the point of my missive, although you had to explain it to me for my own benefit.
file_22.gif
 
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