PEN

[JFGarber]

I have a mental block on PEN style damage.

PEN is calculated at twice its dice value when determining penetration, but not when computing damage. So let's say that Starhopper Lazerzapper fires his PEN-3 weapon at an opponent wearing armor of AV=24 and successfully hits.

He rolls 3d, gets 13, doubles it for 26, and has successfully penetrated the armor. What is the effect? The two extra points disappear, since they were a result of the "doubling" and that doesn't apply to damage calculations.

In T5.09, AV was reduced to zero at a location following a successful penetration, so a high PEN weapon could cause death by a thousand cuts. I cannot find a corresponding provision in T5.10.

I welcome your thoughts.

 

[lgriffin]

Page 213 of 5.1's Book 1 indicates the following:

An Effect Must PENETRATE Armor Before it Can Damage. An Effect point value equal to or less than the Armor value does not Penetrate and produces no Damage. If the Effect point value exceeds the Armor value, the excess points each inflict Damage, and the Armor value is reduced to zero for the remainder of the situation.

(Emphasis mine)

Is that what you were looking for?

As for the damage question, after determining that 2 points got through, I'd halve that to 1 for the hits taken. If only one point got through, I think I'd round it down to zero, but consider the armor value to be zero (per the rule above). It blew a hole in the armor but didn't injure the character.

I'm not sure I'd call it a death by 1000 cuts--as emphasized in the quote above, the armor value is reduced to zero for the remainder of the "situation". So, I'd say once the armor is penetrated, the next hit is going to hurt a lot.

That's just my take on it. I might be wrong.

Lee

 

[Wol]

And as many weapons do other damage as well as PEN in a single hit the 'situation' could be quite serious. Full auto (where appropriate) also does triple damage as I recall too.

 

[JFGarber]

Page 213 of 5.1's Book 1 indicates the following:

(Emphasis mine)

Is that what you were looking for?

As for the damage question, after determining that 2 points got through, I'd halve that to 1 for the hits taken. If only one point got through, I think I'd round it down to zero, but consider the armor value to be zero (per the rule above). It blew a hole in the armor but didn't injure the character.

I'm not sure I'd call it a death by 1000 cuts--as emphasized in the quote above, the armor value is reduced to zero for the remainder of the "situation". So, I'd say once the armor is penetrated, the next hit is going to hurt a lot.

That's just my take on it. I might be wrong.

Lee

Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for. It was italicized and I still managed to overlook it.

 

[JFGarber]

And as many weapons do other damage as well as PEN in a single hit the 'situation' could be quite serious. Full auto (where appropriate) also does triple damage as I recall too.

That's a good point. But the damage only matters after penetration. Take the example of someone, anyone, attempting to penetrate TL-14 battle dress with AR-45 (from Armory table on p233 Book 1). Shooter would need 8d from say bullet damage, or 4d of PEN damage, to have any chance whatsoever of penetrating the dress.

None of the weapons on the upper chart on that page have any chance of harming a marine. A squad of marines is effectively invulnerable. What am I missing here?

I've played with GunMaker, and can't seem to create anything, other than plasma and fusion guns, that penetrate battle dress. Not even grenade and rocket launchers will do it.

I have a philosophical problem with that level of invulnerability. This seems a significant departure from previous editions.

 

[lgriffin]

Here's my take on it.

I view Battle Dress to be the ultimate in personal body armor, basically turning a person into a walking tank. I wouldn't expect anything of 1 tech level lower than the BD to be capable penetrating it.

I look to the RW German 88mm anti-tank gun from WWII. It could blow through most all of the Allied tank's armor at the time. But, put it up against a modern Abrams? I'd expect it to bounce off. And remember, it is a 1970's design that's been in service since 1980. So it's only 35 years ahead of the German 88mm. However, I could be completely wrong and the 88mm might be able to blow through the Abrams armor, but I doubt it.

As for using GunMaker to design something that can penetrate BD, try a Very Heavy (anything with Pen). Very heavy gives you +5 to the all the effects so even with Pen-1 you get Pen-6 which means 12d6 for penetrating armor. The average roll for 12d6 is 42 so you only need three dice to come up above average to penetrate.

Want a launcher? Try a Very Heavy Anti-Tank Missile Launcher. That should give you a Pen-8. A Very Heavy Missile or Rocket Launcher should give you Pen-7. Even a Very Heavy Laser Rifle would give you a Pen-7.

So, it's not easy, but it can be done. However, since I consider BD to be basically a tank, I'd expect it to take something drawn from the Artillery Type/Category to really touch it, anyway. Look at a Very Heavy Anti-Tank Cannon--it would have a whopping Pen-12.

Anyway, as I said, it's not easy to get anything less than artillery to penetrate BD, but if you work hard enough, you can. And maybe it should take nothing less than artillery to stop a walking tank.

Lee

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I view Battle Dress to be the ultimate in personal body armor, basically turning a person into a walking tank. I wouldn't expect anything of 1 tech level lower than the BD to be capable penetrating it.

Not even remotely.

E.g. by CT Striker a WWII Panther tank has frontal armour 31, effective range penetration 28. A TL-14 battle dress has armour 18. The low tech AP round would blow straight through the battle dress.

BD is mostly immune to low tech infantry weapons, but even anti-tank rifles are a different matter.


As to the M-1, the armour in first versions is vastly different from current versions.

The PaK 43 8.8 cm gun firing a PzGr. 40/43 could penetrate about 200 mm (at 1000 m), so would be very unlikely to penetrate an Abrams from the front, but the side or rear would likely be vulnerable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_PaK_43
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

 

[JFGarber]

Here's my take on it.

I view Battle Dress to be the ultimate in personal body armor, basically turning a person into a walking tank. I wouldn't expect anything of 1 tech level lower than the BD to be capable penetrating it.

This is a good discussion to have, and is really the crux of my problems with GunMaker/ArmorMaker/PEN. Marines in my campaign are deadly, but it's because of personal grav belts, grav tanks in close support, superb communications, and orbital superiority. If a marine unit was foolish enough to go dome-to-dome, they'd be individually vulnerable.

I never played CT, started with Megatraveller in high school, and never even tried another version until T5. In MT, marines are vulnerable. Even a TL-6 RAM or recoilless rifle can penetrate TL-14 Dress. The lower TL should expect horrifying casualties...

The cover illustration on the Player's Manual shows a couple of naifs--one with a pistol and one with a shotgun that wouldn't look out of place in my safe. I've always assumed that they had some sort of chance, and kind of forced my understanding of the rules in that direction.

I look to the RW German 88mm anti-tank gun from WWII. It could blow through most all of the Allied tank's armor at the time. But, put it up against a modern Abrams? I'd expect it to bounce off. And remember, it is a 1970's design that's been in service since 1980. So it's only 35 years ahead of the German 88mm. However, I could be completely wrong and the 88mm might be able to blow through the Abrams armor, but I doubt it.

Again, I think this is a discussion worth having. The Mote series treats its marines as you've described them above. I'm curious to hear how others play them ITTU.

As for using GunMaker to design something that can penetrate BD, try a Very Heavy (anything with Pen). Very heavy gives you +5 to the all the effects so even with Pen-1 you get Pen-6 which means 12d6 for penetrating armor. The average roll for 12d6 is 42 so you only need three dice to come up above average to penetrate.

Want a launcher? Try a Very Heavy Anti-Tank Missile Launcher. That should give you a Pen-8. A Very Heavy Missile or Rocket Launcher should give you Pen-7. Even a Very Heavy Laser Rifle would give you a Pen-7.

So, it's not easy, but it can be done. However, since I consider BD to be basically a tank, I'd expect it to take something drawn from the Artillery Type/Category to really touch it, anyway. Look at a Very Heavy Anti-Tank Cannon--it would have a whopping Pen-12.

Anyway, as I said, it's not easy to get anything less than artillery to penetrate BD, but if you work hard enough, you can. And maybe it should take nothing less than artillery to stop a walking tank.

Lee

Excellent, thanks. I will revisit the Maker. I do note that the text says "heavy" and "light" don't apply to lasers, but since one of the examples is a heavy laser I'll just assume that's errata.

 

[JFGarber]

Not even remotely.

E.g. by CT Striker a WWII Panther tank has frontal armour 31, effective range penetration 28. A TL-14 battle dress has armour 18. The low tech AP round would blow straight through the battle dress.

BD is mostly immune to low tech infantry weapons, but even anti-tank rifles are a different matter.


As to the M-1, the armour in first versions is vastly different from current versions.

The PaK 43 8.8 cm gun firing a PzGr. 40/43 could penetrate about 200 mm (at 1000 m), so would be very unlikely to penetrate an Abrams from the front, but the side or rear would likely be vulnerable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_PaK_43
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

What is your preferred version of the game? (Acknowledging that this is the T5 forum.)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What is your preferred version of the game? (Acknowledging that this is the T5 forum.)

I'm currently playing MgT2, but since that is not very detailed I fill in details from other editions, including T5.

I started with CT, and in my opinion CT sets the expectations for Traveller, e.g. for BD vulnerability.

 

[Wol]

That's a good point. But the damage only matters after penetration. Take the example of someone, anyone, attempting to penetrate TL-14 battle dress with AR-45 (from Armory table on p233 Book 1). Shooter would need 8d from say bullet damage, or 4d of PEN damage, to have any chance whatsoever of penetrating the dress.

None of the weapons on the upper chart on that page have any chance of harming a marine. A squad of marines is effectively invulnerable. What am I missing here?

I've played with GunMaker, and can't seem to create anything, other than plasma and fusion guns, that penetrate battle dress. Not even grenade and rocket launchers will do it.

I have a philosophical problem with that level of invulnerability. This seems a significant departure from previous editions.

A weapon with say BR-6 has 3 bullet x3 for auto if possible which would be 9 d6, and 3 goes with snapfire...

The ABR9 has a base of 5 d6 bullet...

The MG6 has bullet 4...

See note 19 p.225 Book 1 which matches with the rules p.205 same book.

regards

 

[kilemall]

Not even remotely.

E.g. by CT Striker a WWII Panther tank has frontal armour 31, effective range penetration 28. A TL-14 battle dress has armour 18. The low tech AP round would blow straight through the battle dress.

BD is mostly immune to low tech infantry weapons, but even anti-tank rifles are a different matter.


As to the M-1, the armour in first versions is vastly different from current versions.

The PaK 43 8.8 cm gun firing a PzGr. 40/43 could penetrate about 200 mm (at 1000 m), so would be very unlikely to penetrate an Abrams from the front, but the side or rear would likely be vulnerable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_PaK_43
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

Hard to say, they have the reactive skirt but I don't know if the DU plates are put on the side. Most serious shots at the Abrams are going to be top-down missiles from helicopters or the latest generation of RPGs anyway.


Just did a design redo of my analysis from the CT Striker thread. Bottom line, it sort of works as 185 kg of armor for a BD suit, which is the equivalent of 50mm steel.

With 100 kg of extra lift you could up it to somewhere in the 20s but the RPGs/RAM GLs from TL8-10 still pop the tin can.

CA unpowered at 185 kg obviously doesn't work either, if you take that equipment as canon there must be some super expensive material that is human form factor flexible and multiples of tank armor to get that protection at human carry weight.



The CT Striker suits are invulnerable to light weapons and very effective against even gauss but not against autocannons on up, and of course PG/FGMP rifles. It's not even that effective against the next lower TL weapon, the TL13 laser rifle.

Many people posit a laser anti-missile add-on and that's a good and reasonable subsystem likely to be standard. But that doesn't deal with the slug throwers/CPRs. My best overall solution is for the BD suit to carry a shield made of armor, and hold it angled to get the double armor benefit. That defeats most reasonable threats.

Put a heavy weapon in the right hand, my preference being an RP-A/RP-B fusion gun which at TL15 is light enough to be like an LMG/HMG and well within the BD's lift capability to handle one-armed, plus one of those light anti-RAM GL lasers.

My ultimate BD suit then ends up looking like an armored knight with a shield to defeat the dragon fire and a fusion lance.


I don't have Striker II so any of my fellow wonks are invited to do the same for that system. Bottom line, in order to make BD suits work in the supposed reference system with a criteria of defeat all threats less then it's TL, it has to be upgraded to better then starship/tank armor to work within the game form factor.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

An answer.

I have a mental block on PEN style damage.

PEN is calculated at twice its dice value when determining penetration, but not when computing damage. So let's say that Starhopper Lazerzapper fires his PEN-3 weapon at an opponent wearing armor of AV=24 and successfully hits.

He rolls 3d, gets 13, doubles it for 26, and has successfully penetrated the armor. What is the effect? The two extra points disappear, since they were a result of the "doubling" and that doesn't apply to damage calculations.

In T5.09, AV was reduced to zero at a location following a successful penetration, so a high PEN weapon could cause death by a thousand cuts. I cannot find a corresponding provision in T5.10.

I welcome your thoughts.

Based on this example Lazerzapper does 2 hits of damage to his enemy because those 2 points penetrated the Av.

 

[lgriffin]

Excellent, thanks. I will revisit the Maker. I do note that the text says "heavy" and "light" don't apply to lasers, but since one of the examples is a heavy laser I'll just assume that's errata.

Indeed it does, but such a prohibition does not exist for Very Heavy, which seems strange. Also, there seems to be several eratta still plaguing GunMaker, so sometimes you just have to make your best guess as to what was meant and hope you're right.

Lee

 

[whartung]

The PaK 43 8.8 cm gun firing a PzGr. 40/43 could penetrate about 200 mm (at 1000 m), so would be very unlikely to penetrate an Abrams from the front, but the side or rear would likely be vulnerable.

It would certainly reek havoc on the open tread system of the M-1.

 

[lgriffin]

Excellent, thanks. I will revisit the Maker. I do note that the text says "heavy" and "light" don't apply to lasers, but since one of the examples is a heavy laser I'll just assume that's errata.

You are indeed correct, about heavy and light, but since very heavy is a different designation that just "heavy" I used it. I also think it is an erratum. I'm just not sure if Very Heavy should be excluded from lasers or if Heavy and Light should be allowed.

I also think Laser should be allowed on "artillery". I just like the sound of a "Very Heavy Laser Cannon - 11".

Lee