MT Only: MT Referee's Manual Mainworld Generation: Bases

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

I've modified Basic Mainworld Generation Step 11 to include the chance to roll for a Naval Depot and a Scout Waystation.

The rules state that Depots and Waystations cannot occupy the same system and strongly recommends that there should be only one of each base per sector.

While testing my modification the rolls resulted in a system with a naval Depot and a Scout base.

I have checked the errata and did a search of my PDF copy of the Referee's Manual without stumbling across text that allows or blocks a result of a naval depot and scout base in the same system.

Is having a naval depot and scout base in the same system allowed and if allowed how would I code the combination?

 

[SpaceBadger]

I don't have all of MT ready at hand, so can't give you a definite rules quote, but there are numerous references for as long as I can remember that a Naval Depot takes up a whole system and nothing else is allowed there. Realistically, I can't see how it could possibly take up all of the space in a whole system, but this may be for security reasons.

Way Stations I don't believe are ever depicted as being so huge, and in fact it would make sense to have them in a populated system on the X-route, since their primary function is servicing and refitting X-boats.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening PDT SpaceBadger,

Your reply did the trick at helping dig-up an answer to the question of co-locating a scout base with a naval depot. I found the answer in CT Book 6 scouts.

The short answer is no scout bases or way stations can be co-located with a naval depot. The more detailed, okay verbose, answer is below.

I don't have all of MT ready at hand, so can't give you a definite rules quote, but there are numerous references for as long as I can remember that a Naval Depot takes up a whole system and nothing else is allowed there. Realistically, I can't see how it could possibly take up all of the space in a whole system, but this may be for security reasons.

I don't know about a naval depot taking up the whole system, but CT, MT, TNE, and T4 all agree that only a naval depot can occupy a system.

I have found that MT and TNE have dropped some details from CT, particularly from CT Book 6 Scouts.

CT Book 6 Scouts Page 38
"Scout bases and way stations are never co-located with naval depots."

The above answers my question on if a scout base and a naval depot can be co-located in the same system. I'm importing the rule into MT and TNE since both of them only mention no depots and way stations in the same system.

Another item that I haven't found in either MT's/TNE's Extended Systems is that naval and scout bases have sub-components scattered around the system which can be found on Ct Book 6 Scouts page 37.

Way Stations I don't believe are ever depicted as being so huge, and in fact it would make sense to have them in a populated system on the X-route, since their primary function is servicing and refitting X-boats.

CT Book 6 page 32 agrees with you.

Way Station: Large scout base involved in repair and maintenance for ships in an x-boat system. Must be situated on an express boat route.

MT Referee's Manual page 18 provides the following detail:

"Typically express boat communications routes connect or pass within 3 hexes of worlds with type A or B starports.

I'm guessing that a military base can be co-located with naval bases, naval depots, scout bases, and scout way stations base on the information that the naval and scout facility codes are the one used in the world/system profile.

I printed the Traveller Map - Second Survey Data Definitions document in the table for CT, MT, and TNE base codes which does use the letter F for a military base and naval base in the same system.

Again thank you for the help.

 

[McPerth]

As I understand them, Way stations are just the facilities to support the Xboat network when there is no Scout base in the system. So, they cannot be on the same system as a Scout base, becouse if there is, it takes the functions of the Way station.

Also, see that teres is no roll for a Way station, so, again as I understand it, a Way station is assumed to be in any world that is part of the Xboat network and lacks Scout base.

As for depots, due to their own reason d'être, I also asume they must be part of the Xboat network, but don't need the Way station, as the Depot itself is more than capable to asume their function (and service the Xboats).

 

[rancke]

As I understand them, Way stations are just the facilities to support the Xboat network when there is no Scout base in the system. So, they cannot be on the same system as a Scout base, becouse if there is, it takes the functions of the Way station.

No, a Way Station is an über X-boat station.

"...During a normal tour of duty, an express boat will jump from system to system, occasionally changing pilots, but steadily working its wat farther and farther down the line. At each stop, the xboat is routinely checked, refuelled, reprovisioned, and perhaps recrewed. Ultimately, however, the xboat must undergo maintenance and possible repair after the rigors of its mission. The way station performs this function." [FS:7]​

What puzzles me is what possible advantage this system has over having xboats jump back and forth over the same short stretch of the Xboat web, as long as said stretch includes at least one world where annual maintenance can be performed. Note that I'm not saying the system as described won't work; I'm saying it has no advantage over the simpler system I mentioned.

As for depots, due to their own reason d'être, I also asume they must be part of the Xboat network, but don't need the Way station, as the Depot itself is more than capable to asume their function (and service the Xboats).

If Xboats were the primary means of communication in the Imperium, as the official hype claims, depots would definitely need to be on an X-boat route. But since naval couriers beat the X-boat system like a big bass drum, no such necessity exists. There's no reason why depots couldn't be on X-boat routes even so, except perhaps for inter-service rivalry ("The Imperial Navy don't need no steenkeen' X-boats!")


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello McPerth and Hans Rancke,

Weirdness is happening with the Quote button at the bottom of your replies. Instead of opening the reply pane with your replies I am getting a blank pane. I went back to SpaceBadger's post and clicked the Quote button and his works fine. I've even logged out, closed/re-opened the web browser, and logged back into COTI forums and the problem is still there.

My work around is to copy and paste the quote information I get from the quoted reply I get to SpaceBadger and changing the name and post number to the appropriate post.

As I understand them, Way stations are just the facilities to support the Xboat network when there is no Scout base in the system. So, they cannot be on the same system as a Scout base, because if there is, it takes the functions of the Way station.

CT Book 6 Scouts states that a way station is a large scout base involved in repair and maintenance for ships in an x-boat system and must be situated on an express boat route.

Which is, I think similar to Hans' idea

No, a Way Station is an über X-boat station.

"...During a normal tour of duty, an express boat will jump from system to system, occasionally changing pilots, but steadily working its wat farther and farther down the line. At each stop, the xboat is routinely checked, refuelled, reprovisioned, and perhaps recrewed. Ultimately, however, the xboat must undergo maintenance and possible repair after the rigors of its mission. The way station performs this function." FS:7

MT Referee's Manual's adds another bit of the puzzle by requiring that a way station is located within or no more than 3 hexes away from class A or B starports along the x-boat route.

To me this means that Scout Way Stations take the place of a Scout base and is probably the headquarters' for the sector the station is located in since, like a naval depot, the recommended number is one per sector.

Also, see that there is no roll for a Way station, so, again as I understand it, a Way station is assumed to be in any world that is part of the Xboat network and lacks Scout base.

You are correct that officially one cannot roll for a way station or a naval depot, however I do randomly roll to see if a way station or depot might exist in a sub-sector. Luckily or maybe not I still have not come up with either when physically rolling dice. If a sub-sector roll resulted in either a naval depot or a way station I would stop rolling for that facility for the rest of the sub-sectors in a sector. If during working through the sub-sectors I get the other facility before completing the sector I would also stop rolling.

Testing the spreadsheets I've been tinkering with to see what happens is another story.;-)

As for depots, due to their own reason d'être, I also assume they must be part of the Xboat network, but don't need the Way station, as the Depot itself is more than capable to assume their function (and service the Xboats).

The X-boat system, or whatever non-Imperials call their system, is the primary means of rapid communications in Traveller.

I agree that naval depots are located along X-boat routes and, like Hans, feel the IN maintain their own fleet high jump rated ships to carry important messages. For more routine and less time sensitive message traffic the IN probably uses the X-boat system more often. I feel that personal correspondence for a majority of naval personnel probably uses the X-boar service.

I also agree with Hans that the rivalry between the Navy and the Scouts probably has something to do with having an IN a separate communications route.

Of course the IN can under certain condition co-op the Scouts to bolster the fleet, while the Scouts cannot co-op the In.

 

[rancke]

CT Book 6 Scouts states that a way station is a large scout base involved in repair and maintenance for ships in an x-boat system and must be situated on an express boat route.

Which is, I think similar to Hans' idea.

It's not my idea. I was quoting from Fighting Ships.

To me this means that Scout Way Stations take the place of a Scout base and is probably the headquarters' for the sector the station is located in since, like a naval depot, the recommended number is one per sector.

Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind that X-boat functions belong to one Scout department and other Scout functions belong to other departments. It's not inconceivable that turf wars will interfere. Way stations will be placed where the X-boat division feel they are needed, other Scout bases where other divisions feel they're needed. That could coincide, but it's not a given that it does.

The X-boat system, or whatever non-Imperials call their system, is the primary means of rapid communications in Traveller.

No, the X-boat system is said to be the primary means of rapid communication in the Imperium. Unfortunately, this is a logical impossibility given that they are restricted to jump-4 when several alternate means of communication can use jump-6.

I agree that naval depots are located along X-boat routes and, like Hans, feel the IN maintain their own fleet high jump rated ships to carry important messages. For more routine and less time sensitive message traffic the IN probably uses the X-boat system more often. I feel that personal correspondence for a majority of naval personnel probably uses the X-boar service.

Electronic storage means are so capacious that I don't see any reason to believe that Navy couriers shouldn't be able to deal with all the requirements of the service. I don't mind postulating that the 'NavyNet' doesn't deal with civilian message traffic, but I also believe that high-performance passenger liners will be capable of dealing with any amount of civilian message traffic.

I also agree with Hans that the rivalry between the Navy and the Scouts probably has something to do with having an IN a separate communications route.

Though the primary reason is (I believe) that the IN kept jump-5 a military secret for a few decades before it was declassified. Long enough for the new jumo-5 navy couriers to outclass the X-boats and for the Imperial bureaucracy to start forwarding 'copies' of reports and orders by 'NavyNet' (originals were still sent by X-boat, as the regulations prescribed; it's just that the copies arrived long before the originals). As a result, there was no need to upgrade the X-boats once the jump-5 drive was declassified, so they weren't upgraded. The same thing happened when jump-6 was invented.

None of this is canon. But I believe it explains why the X-boats are still restricted to jump-4 400 years (or more) after then invention of jump-5.

Of course the IN can under certain condition co-op the Scouts to bolster the fleet, while the Scouts cannot co-op the In.

They can certainly call up most Scout assets. But it's not at all inconceivable that there's a 500 year old Imperial Edict that forbids them from interfering with the X-boats specifically. Since the X-boats are such a vital part of the Imperium' rapid communication system. :rofl:

Besides, what would the IN want the X-boats for?


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Hans,

Thanks for providing the more detailed description for the Imperial bases in Fighting Ships page 7. I forgot all about looking in the supplements.

No, a Way Station is an über X-boat station.

"...During a normal tour of duty, an express boat will jump from system to system, occasionally changing pilots, but steadily working its wat farther and farther down the line. At each stop, the xboat is routinely checked, refuelled, reprovisioned, and perhaps recrewed. Ultimately, however, the xboat must undergo maintenance and possible repair after the rigors of its mission. The way station performs this function." FS:7

What puzzles me is what possible advantage this system has over having xboats jump back and forth over the same short stretch of the Xboat web, as long as said stretch includes at least one world where annual maintenance can be performed. Note that I'm not saying the system as described won't work; I'm saying it has no advantage over the simpler system I mentioned.

Here is how I have thought the X-boat system works as described though I'm not sure if I'm describing an advantage or not.

Messages for the most part are in electronic format which is kept in part of a X-boat's computer data storage area. To minimize the chance of data corruption or loss only messages for a particular destination on the communications route is downloaded and messages for further down the route are uploaded, per Traders and Gunboats pages 11 - 14, between the X-boat to the X-boat tender assigned to the area. During the time The X-boat tender, also does the refueling, minor maintenance and repairs before sending the X-boat on to the next destination.

At some point the X-boat reaches a way station which does a more detailed inspection and if needed takes on the job of doing the work. If the way station would be considered the end of the route for that X-boat.

I agree that rivalry that between the IN and ISS has a bearing the IN having their own couriers. However, the IN can co-op scout bases and way station under certain condition and per FS become the equivalent of naval depot service hulls <= 10,000 tons. An IN depot can handle pretty much everything.

 

[rancke]

Messages for the most part are in electronic format which is kept in part of a X-boat's computer data storage area. To minimize the chance of data corruption or loss only messages for a particular destination on the communications route is downloaded and messages for further down the route are uploaded, per Traders and Gunboats pages 11 - 14, between the X-boat to the X-boat tender assigned to the area. During the time The X-boat tender, also does the refueling, minor maintenance and repairs before sending the X-boat on to the next destination.

The whole basis of the X-boat system is that it is faster to transfer messages from one boat to another that is ready to jump than to service the boats. So everything gets transmitted at each stop.

By TL13 they probably have transmission errors pretty well under control.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hans, I clicked on the quote button which opened the reply pane quoting the message. The web gremlins seem to have gone to pester someone else.

It's not my idea. I was quoting from Fighting Ships.

Poor usage of the word "idea" on my part.

Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind that X-boat functions belong to one Scout department and other Scout functions belong to other departments. It's not inconceivable that turf wars will interfere. Way stations will be placed where the X-boat division feel they are needed, other Scout bases where other divisions feel they're needed. That could coincide, but it's not a given that it does.

After reading through my comment and your thoughts the odds the way station being a headquarters is probably close to nil. However stranger things have happened.

No, the X-boat system is said to be the primary means of rapid communication in the Imperium. Unfortunately, this is a logical impossibility given that they are restricted to jump-4 when several alternate means of communication can use jump-6.

The X-boat system appears to be the primary means of rapid civilian, and in my opinion, non-urgent low level government and/or naval communications.

The other major players in Traveller as far as I can tell have similar systems to the Imperial X-boat system. I don't recall what the other major players call their systems so I apply the title of X-boat system to them.

Apparently I have opted to overlook the J-4 restriction based on material from another Traveller version, which one I don't have a clue to look at.

Electronic storage means are so capacious that I don't see any reason to believe that Navy couriers shouldn't be able to deal with all the requirements of the service. I don't mind postulating that the 'NavyNet' doesn't deal with civilian message traffic, but I also believe that high-performance passenger liners will be capable of dealing with any amount of civilian message traffic.

From base to base the service probably is conducted by Naval courier. However, a message sent to someone's family or friends not in the service gets transferred at some point to another service. When I dropped letters home in the post office from a military facility they got transferred to the postal service.

The Navy could carry civilian message traffic in a pinch, but naval messages, especially in some admirals mind, a hot topic needs to get to fleet HQ as quickly and in theory as securely as possible.

High performance civilian liners and other such vessels handle a lot of the message traffic going to destinations off the main communications route and messages that are urgent, in someone's mind, between arrival of the next X-boat. The Navy have their own couriers don't have to wait on X-boats or civilian high speed vessels to carry messages.

Though the primary reason is (I believe) that the IN kept jump-5 a military secret for a few decades before it was declassified. Long enough for the new jumo-5 navy couriers to outclass the X-boats and for the Imperial bureaucracy to start forwarding 'copies' of reports and orders by 'NavyNet' (originals were still sent by X-boat, as the regulations prescribed; it's just that the copies arrived long before the originals). As a result, there was no need to upgrade the X-boats once the jump-5 drive was declassified, so they weren't upgraded. The same thing happened when jump-6 was invented.

None of this is canon. But I believe it explains why the X-boats are still restricted to jump-4 400 years (or more) after then invention of jump-5.

The Navy had more pull with the MOOT and the Emperor than the Scouts, not to mention not liking to share their best toys. Sort of like today with the military branches each trying to get their toys, even when there is some overlap in the equipment.

They can certainly call up most Scout assets. But it's not at all inconceivable that there's a 500 year old Imperial Edict that forbids them from interfering with the X-boats specifically. Since the X-boats are such a vital part of the Imperium' rapid communication system. :rofl:

You are probably right about the edict.

Besides, what would the IN want the X-boats for?

How about as a means to cover it black operations funds instead of Kcr1,000 toilet seats or hammers.

 

[snrdg082102]

Two in a row that the quote button worked. I seem to be falling behind on my replies, which is probably due to trying to multi-task.

The whole basis of the X-boat system is that it is faster to transfer messages from one boat to another that is ready to jump than to service the boats. So everything gets transmitted at each stop.

By TL13 they probably have transmission errors pretty well under control.


Hans

My thinking was more along the lines that there weren't any X-boats waiting around to have the messages transferred to. My guess was that the X-boat got picked up by the tender, was refueled, restocked, minor maintenance and repairs made while in route to the next jump point. The example you have shown me is probably the preferred method.

Thanks for the help and discussion.