[MT Missing] CT Core Rules

[DonM]

This is the beginning of "What's Missing in MT", a systematic approach.

I plan on going through the CT "corpus" step-by-step, identify what wasn't brought over to MT, and declare it "additions".

So, today, we start with the core: From the following rulesets, what is missing from MT:

LBB '77, LBB '81, The Traveller Book '82 or Starter Traveller '83...

Suggestions?

 

[Hyphen]

Book 2 vector movement?

(Not that I miss it that much...)

Do you consider Striker to be "CT"? (I do...) ...if yes, then MT has only a simplified version of the possible weaponry.

 

[Hemdian]

Are you including Bk5 in the core? If so then one thing I've noticed missing in MT is extra jump capacitors for black globes.

Also, the cost of repair parts from Bk2 (p34) is missing.

And, of course, the whole Bk2 vector movement system.

 

[sfchbryan]

Do you want to include character types?

I have a rather large spreadsheet that covers both CT & MT

 

[DonM]

Book 2 vector movement?

Do you consider Striker to be "CT"? (I do...) ...if yes, then MT has only a simplified version of the possible weaponry.

Actually, since MT uses Starter Traveller's range band system, I consider the removal of vector movement deliberate.

Striker is CT (and it's certainly MT's foundation). However, I'm focusing right now specifically on LBB '77, LBB '81, TBB 82 and ST 83 here for what's missing. Striker will come along, but not in this discussion.

Are you including Bk5 in the core? If so then one thing I've noticed missing in MT is extra jump capacitors for black globes.

Also, the cost of repair parts from Bk2 (p34) is missing.

And, of course, the whole Bk2 vector movement system.

Explained the vector movement above, and Bk5 isn't core, that would come later. However, I think the extra jump capacitators are in the 2.17 pile already. If not, we'll get to Bk 5.

The repair cost item is an item. Thanks!

Do you want to include character types?

I have a rather large spreadsheet that covers both CT & MT

For this discussion, only if the character types appeared in The Traveller Book, Starter Traveller, or LBBs 1-3 from either the 77 or 81 editions. So, I don't think any are missing from MT.

 

[far-trader]

Computer programs/programming?

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Don -

ISTR they didn't include the various drugs, but this is an errata for MT, not something they deliberately didn't bring across...

 

[DonM]

Computer programs/programming?

I happen to think that dropping those was the right choice to make. And it was done in HG, and MT's default starship combat system (for better or worse) is derived from HG.

Dear Don -

ISTR they didn't include the various drugs, but this is an errata for MT, not something they deliberately didn't bring across...

Aren't the drugs already in the MT errata? And they were left out of Starter Traveller as well...

 

[Brian Smaller]

Do you want to include character types?

I have a rather large spreadsheet that covers both CT & MT

Yes please. Love to see that spreadsheet.

 

[DonM]

Also, the cost of repair parts from Bk2 (p34) is missing.

Ok, it's covered by the repair rules brought over from BK5.

Anything else missing from the LBBs, or The Traveller Book, or Starter Traveller?

 

[Swiftbrook]

This is the beginning of "What's Missing in MT", a systematic approach.

I plan on going through the CT "corpus" step-by-step, identify what wasn't brought over to MT, and declare it "additions".

So, today, we start with the core: From the following rulesets, what is missing from MT:

LBB '77, LBB '81, The Traveller Book '82 or Starter Traveller '83...

Suggestions?

Partial Streamlining for starships.

-Swiftbrook

 

[far-trader]

Partial Streamlining for starships.

I think this was more a redefinition of terms than anything. The HG terms Unstreamlined, Partial Streamlined, and Fully Streamlined were more or less soft converted to MT terms of Unstreamlined, Streamlined, and Air-Frame.

So your missing Partial Streamlined became Streamlined, and the old Streamlined became Air-Frame.

EDIT: And of course, fwiw, LBB2 didn't have Partial Streamlined though it could be interpreted to be part of HG Unstreamlined while MT Air-Frame was lumped into LBB2 and HG Streamlined.

 

[far-trader]

Computer programs/programming?

I happen to think that dropping those was the right choice to make.

A debate for elsewhere though I intended the wink to make that point

But, to the point, unless I've misunderstood (and honestly I have no idea of the "what for" of this exercise) you were asking for anything from the basic rules (LBB1-3, Starter and TTB) that wasn't part of MT.

Like the combat rules as mentioned, and computer programs, and whatever else. That seems to be the way your request is being interpreted at least. Does it need clarifying?

Anyway, that's why I offered the dropped computer programming rules. No other reason. Though as noted above I am curious as to the reasons for the data hunt (if you can share that of course).

 

[Swiftbrook]

I think this was more a redefinition of terms than anything. The HG terms Unstreamlined, Partial Streamlined, and Fully Streamlined were more or less soft converted to MT terms of Unstreamlined, Streamlined, and Air-Frame.

I discussed this in the MT Errata thread here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=11286&page=38#375

Though it appears that way, HG does not convert to MT as you described it. Since it fits better in this thread, my line of thinking from the Errata thread:

Streamlining: Any ship of configuration one to six, regardless of streamlining, can land on a world with an atmosphere zero or one; for all other worlds, streamlining is required. Irregular structures and planetoids cannot land of any worlds.

Streamlining refers to the ability of the ship to enter atmosphere (partial streamlining allows fuel skimming but prohibits entry into world atmospheres for the purpose of landing).

I believe it's like this: An F-15 has an airframe, it's designed to fly in combat in an atmosphere and provide lift. The space shuttle is streamline, it's big and heavy but it can maneuver and land.

MT removed partial streamlining. The Close Escort in CT had a partial streamline hull with its drop tanks installed but streamline without them. Azanti High Lightning had a partial streamline hull, it could scoop fuel in an emergency. In MT, with no partial streamlining, the rules as writen allow the Azanti to land on a planet. That's a big stretch for me. I like the MT rules and miss a partial streamlining option.

My idea for adding partial streamlining. I'd make the following changes to table 5 on page 63:

Type 1 Needle/Wedge Partial Streamlining Price Mod 0.8
Type 2 Cone Partial Stremlining Price Mod 0.8
Type 3 CylinderPartial Stremlining Price Mod 1.1
Type 4 Box Partial Stremlining Price Mod 1.2
Type 5 Sphere Partial Stremlining Price Mod 0.8

-Swiftbrook

 

[far-trader]

I'm all for you discussing it here, it may very well fit Don's needs. I didn't mean my reply to be a roadblock to that

You could be right, I thought I was recalling something in MT about Streamlined ships being GG cleared but not atmo rated, and for atmo you needed Air-Frame. Could be I've messed up an old house rule in my mind.

...The Close Escort in CT had a partial streamline hull with its drop tanks installed but streamline without them. Azanti High Lightning had a partial streamline hull, it could scoop fuel in an emergency.

Are you certain?

While the CE is a Partially Streamlined hull iirc the drop tanks don't impact streamlining (in HG) meaning there is no difference tanks carried or not. They only impact drive performance and fuel endurance.

And the AHL is a Partially Streamlined hull but the colour text applies penalties for skimming that aren't deserved by the (HG) rules which mention no penalty for Partially Streamlined ships engaging in GG skimming. Though I'm not sure what your point is as the AHL example applies.

 

[DonM]

Anyway, that's why I offered the dropped computer programming rules. No other reason. Though as noted above I am curious as to the reasons for the data hunt (if you can share that of course).

Well, the ONE thing I do know that is missing is the "Low Lottery" -- and that's deliberate.

And the real reason is because the biggest thing missing from CT in MT is the missing Striker tables. But before I tackle them, I want to make sure we've got everything else.

Most of this exercise is just "yes, but there's a reason", or "yes, that's really missing". Like the repair parts -- that's missing because MT uses HG, and so the repair details from Book 5 should be there (they aren't...)

 

[DonM]

I discussed this in the MT Errata thread here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=11286&page=38#375

Though it appears that way, HG does not convert to MT as you described it. Since it fits better in this thread, my line of thinking from the Errata thread:

I saw your other posting, but the Great Old Ones already disagreed with you.

From the 10/1/88 errata (the very first one, I think):

Here are the definitions for the various streamlined configurations:

Unstreamlined: No attempt has been made to streamline the hull. Many protrusions and irregularities exist which significantly increase the vessel's drag, making it difficult or impossible to operate the craft in an atmosphere at any high rate of speed.

Streamlined: Various cowlings and farings have been added to the hull to streamline it for operation in an atmosphere, although the streamlining is less than that provided by an airframe. This configuration is equivalent to the "partially streamlined" configuration found in High Guard.

Airframe: The hull has been designed for high performance in an atmosphere. In order to achieve such performance, exterior design has been a priority. This configuration is equivalent to the "streamlined" configuration found in High Guard.

So, "partially streamlined" is missing, but it's deliberate. It is really there, they just got rid of the word partially.

And Partially Streamlined is NOT in the LBBs, The Traveller Book or Starter Traveller, it's in HG.

I'd been meaning to respond to your post in the errata thread, but you posted here, so I put the response here.

 

[Swiftbrook]

Are you certain?

While the CE is a Partially Streamlined hull iirc the drop tanks don't impact streamlining (in HG) meaning there is no difference tanks carried or not. They only impact drive performance and fuel endurance.

I was, until I looked it up again in Sup 7. The CE is partially streamlined (period).

-Swiftbrook

 

[Swiftbrook]

So, "partially streamlined" is missing, but it's deliberate. It is really there, they just got rid of the word partially.

And Partially Streamlined is NOT in the LBBs, The Traveller Book or Starter Traveller, it's in HG.

So, we have a problem. If MT Streamline = HG Partial Streamline, then every MT ship with a streamline hull can not land on a planet with an atmosphere of 2 or greater.

partial streamlining allows fuel skimming but prohibits entry into world atmospheres for the purpose of landing.

That's the problem. I think the clarification from the 88 errata is mistaken/misleading. MT Streamlining should equal HG Streamlining. They just dropped partial streamlining from MT. To accept that MT Streamlining only allows fuel skimming but prohibits entry into a worlds atmosphere for the purpose of landing ..... that's not going to happen.

Also, some confusion on my part. I consider HG part of the LBB. I guessing that your reference is for books 1-3.

-Swiftbrook

 

[far-trader]

For what it's worth I think drop tanks should negatively impact something. Streamlining, hardpoints, armor, ...

Come to think, unless it was just a house rule, didn't one version of the olde games rules include a penalty to streamlining for drop tanks? Or was it externally carried craft? Something about conformal streamlining costing more... Foggy memory, tiredness...

But this is largely off-topic. I think I'll sign off for the evening A bit of relaxing reading and some sleep are in order...