"Marching In Place?" or "Wither the GT ATU?"

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

The alternate time line for SJGame's GURPS:Traveller universe came up on another thread in another forum. Rather than crap that thread, which is among my many failings, I decided to do the right things for once and start a new thread in the correct forum.

Here's some background:

• GT presents an alternate history, or ATU for the Traveller universe.
• In this alternate history, the Assassination and subsequent Rebellion never occur.
• In this alternate history, Dulinor is killed when his shuttle explodes off Sylea.
• The point of divergence between the OTU and ATU has not been revealed.

All the TNS news reports which present the events of GT's ATU can be read for free here.

On to the discussion!


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

I'll start things rolling...

We know next to nothing about GT's ATU on it's most basic level because we have no idea about it's "point of divergence" or POD. In the alternate history genre, the POD is the pebble that begins the avalanche. It's the first change that sparks all the other changes and, by the time all the butterflies accrue, the history we know is changed beyond recognition.

In Turtledove's leaden Timeline 191 series, a set of lost Confederate orders are not found by Union troops, as occurred in our history, and that leads to a Second World War which ends in part when a Socialist President of the USA orders the atomic bombing of a CSA naval base in Norfolk, Virginia.

We don't know GT's POD so it's very hard to spot the changes that may be occurring.

What we do know is that on 131-1116 Dulinor died off Capital when the gig carrying him from his flagship to the Imperial Palace failed to heed traffic control instructions and exploded. Later investigations would reveal a bomb was secreted in the luggage aboard the gig.

This is not the POD however. LKW has flatly stated that and, when you think about it, Dulinor's death cannot be the POD. The POD must be earlier than the explosion because someone set that explosion and had reasons to do so. The POD must involve someone somewhere becoming aware of Dulinor's plot and measures being taken to abort that plot.

The POD must involve the who, what, why, when, where, and how of Dulinor's death and, years after GT's initial release, we still know almost none of those things.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Continuing on...

Dulinor goes kablooey in the skies above Capital and GT's TNS begin. So what's happened since? Oddly enough, very little.

Strephon's a grandfather now. Iphegenia married a professor and had her baby. The horrible twin nephews, Varian and Lucan, are married and fathers or soon to be fathers also.

During his Jubilee Year, Strephon sent members of the Imperial family out on jaunts all around the Imperium. The Empress, Iolanthe, safely visited Earth and liked it so much she went back again safely again.

The Solomani Confederation saw Kukulcan(sp), a major world along the Imperial border, successfully secede and resist the SolCon Navy's attempts to crush that succession. Later, the Confederation passed through either a very short civil war or moderately long coup when two candidates for Secretary General wrestled for a while. Nothing came of either event.

Dulinor's daughter settled into her new Archduchess job. A few of her father's uncles, brothers, and other cronies have retired for various reasons, but Ilelish remains safe and boring.

Norris was made Archduke of Deneb for real and not posthumously via his Magic Electric Warrant either.

The Delphine of Mora and long time Norris hater died. Her grandniece has taken over and is making nice with Norris whose Domain capital just so happens to be on Mora.

Varian took off on a personal Grand Tour of the Imperium years before the tours associated with Strephon's Jubilee. He visted the Marches briefly, acted oddly, was seen in a few odd places, returned to the Core, and nothing happened.

Lucan joined the Imperial Navy and actually made it through officers candidacy school.

An Imperial world on the Solomani Rim had a brief world war in which the Imperium quickly intervened.

Assorted other minor stories have appeared, run their course, and faded away. There's a noble sentenced for trading in Denuli gems who broke jail and is on the run, there's a missing journalist who was investigating jump sickness, there's a mysterious archeology site on a Border World's moon, and for the last year there's been little but gossip column tidbits about nobles, operas, restaurants, weddings, and births on Capital. Seriously, TNS has been resembling little but a 57th Century version of TMZ.

Most of the last few months of updates are about Iolanthe's various refueling stops on her trip home from Earth and which local noble passed her the Ceremonial Forty Ounce during the obligatory fete.

As you can see, there's been a lot of smoke and damn little fire.


Regards,
Bill

 

[kafka47]

As you can see, there's been a lot of smoke and damn little fire.

Yes, this was one of the prime reasons that I lost interest in the GURPS line around the release of Starports. It was a bunch of red herrings designed to tease the long time Traveller player but never expound something greater. {Note, I do appreciate their consolidation of the fragments that made up CT and some new and interesting stuff like the Sword Worlds book}

Will we ever see a wrap to the POD - I would say as long as SJG can make money on PDFs and JTAS subscriptions - not likely. So, from what I understand that SJG has a no sunset clause in their licence but they are not likely to venture over to MgT canon. So status quo there.

SJG has been accumulating cash from non-RPGs and keeping a lifeline to their RPGs by their PDF sales but for all intensive purposes they have become a boutique rather a serious RPG publisher or maybe they are on the vanguard of RPGs by positioning themselves for the eBook explosion... somehow, I think eBooks will not dominate as everyone says they will.

So, it comes back to where does SJG see a POD, it is likely in the last Frontier War which would nicely dovetail with the Living Traveller project that is announced for later this year.

I can only hope that the quality writers of SJG Traveller do some shifting over to MgT and we might see something that old & new players could enjoy.

 

[spinwardpirate]

I can only hope that the quality writers of SJG Traveller do some shifting over to MgT and we might see something that old & new players could enjoy.

I think it goes beyond the writers, and into the whole production process at SJG.

Whipsnade, you've posed an interesting question here. I'm tempted to go back through all of my GT stuff looking for clues.

 

[DonM]

Ok, I guess I'll play devil's advocate here... Why should anything be happening? After the Zhodani defeat in the Fifth Frontier War, the Imperium has gone through a "quiet decade".Why should there be anything jaw-dropping in the GT ATU for a short bit?

 

[Spinward Scout]

So what's missing at this point is adventures. There's no GURPS Secret of the Ancients or GURPS Annic Nova or GURPS Shadows or... GURPS The Traveller Adventure... GURPS Hard Times... etc...

GURPS is great for information consolidation. So much that I read a teacher uses a GURPS Japan book in a history class. But GURPS didn't really do anything with Traveller other than a bunch of TNS entries. GT: Behind the Claw had potential, but the background stories in it really went nowhere.

There's no connecting campaign for GURPS, no Ancient's trilogy adventure. You can't really talk to anyone and say: "how did you run GURPS Across the Bright Face" or "did you have your characters do <this> when you ran GURPS Prison Planet". It's just not there. There's a frakTon of info that'd be great to add to another version's campaign. Or you end up converting another version's adventures to GURPS. Or you make your own. But that's not why they said they were doing GURPS Traveller, is it? It was supposed to be a continuation of Traveller where the Emperor didn't die.

And well, that didn't really happen. At least, not as far as adventures go.

 

[scrabble]

I would say that there is more smoke and fire in the Steve Jackson Games OTU than is occuring in the CT OTU. At least SJG has a TNS, after all.

And there probably is not much that they could do anyway. The 3e Traveller setting is not covered under GURPS 4e, and no new material has been released for that for a while. Interstellar Wars only had the one sourcebook published for it and that was also a while ago. I would guess that it probably is not worth their while to concoct "interesting" stories in the TNS anymore, unless you would prefer that they cover every single brush fire or world war or conflict in the OTU.

Undoubtedly the "real" TNS within the OTU would have much more information about events from all across the Imperium that would be of relevance or interest to its members. But it would probably require far more effort that it is worth for SJG to create something on that scale at this stage in its license.

As for their books, I would say that they have covered pretty much everything of interest in their existing 3e supplements, and adventures can be imported from other Traveller games. By now they have probably reached the point where new products would have to be so specialized in their subject matter that they would not sell enough to make them worth publishing. I also do not think that freelance authors have shown much interest in writing any more Traveller books for them.

I view GURPS Traveller as a very fine set of products, but one that has reached the end of a successful run. I think SJG are merely "keeping the lights on" until their license ends.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

I now see GT as a ploitical and governmental setting.

The only new ground that it really coveres is Nobles, and the TNS entries only dealing with the Nobility, the underlying conflicts seem to be (in the marches anyway) to be high powered schemes between the nobles.

Much in the Regina Vs Mora political disputes, and Norris being made Archuke.

So with everything setteling down following the FFW, everyone can play the game of houses.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Vargas]

Well given that Traveller went through the Rebellion, Hard Times, the Virus and on to the Reformation Coalition/Regency and got a drubbing from a subset of the masses each time, I think they're understandably gun shy of creating yet another metaplot.

Add the fact that creating more background takes resources SJG doesn’t have and/or doesn’t want to devote, for whatever reason, to the effort and you get what we have now.

 

[kafka47]

Ok, I guess I'll play devil's advocate here... Why should anything be happening? After the Zhodani defeat in the Fifth Frontier War, the Imperium has gone through a "quiet decade".Why should there be anything jaw-dropping in the GT ATU for a short bit?

Just because nature abhors a vacuum. And, that is a constant in physics, as it is in Traveller. "The price of victory meant that they did not have to change." (Jean Monet speaking of the UK) Traveller in CT after the War Issue of JTAS and subsquent product release needed something to motivate players to think on a larger plane. Otherwise, it is living in a very small Verse.

SJG restores the Imperium to its glory reduces Nobles to a game of 3D Chess but does not really have the motivation for players to advance beyond 1st level. CT did have an evolving plot and MT was the final statement in that plot. It was brilliant, even if it was poorly executed (meaning that fandom was not gradually brought into it but rarely are metaplots welcomed by fandom anyhow).

Also there is talk of divergence but also convergence within the different timelines. So, everyone is expecting a POD to lead back just as a trickle stream of may find the path of least resistance but still gravity dictates there must be a common pool somewhere. Locating that pool was a pastime for many grognards but quite frankly I think SJG threw out the Traveller Bible and just wrote its own script as it meandered along.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I can look on my shelf and see the problem. I have 4 of the CT reprints. One is called Books, the second is Supplements, the third is Adventures and the fourth is Double Adventures. I have the rest on the CT CD - I think the others are the Alien Modules and the Boxed Sets. But the point is, out of those 4 books on the shelf, half of the books are rules and the other half are adventures.

Half of CT canon was the adventures.

GURPS isn't the only version with this problem, tho.

 

[Vargas]

Half of CT canon was the adventures.

Yup, and I think it had a big, positive impact on the game. Especially as the adventures were a means to supply yet more background material and rules in addition to showing how the game could work.

However by the time MT was published, "adventures don't sell" was becoming the accepted conventional wisdom, and not necessarily just with Traveller. The folio adventures in the late MT period were an attempt to answer the need in an affordable manner without GDW having to expend a lot of resources but they never really caught on. I think the advent of electronic publishing has eroded this line of thinking somewhat but it also brings with it
the problem that when the bar to entry is lowered, quality generally suffers. I'll be interested to see how MGT does in this regard, seeing as it is trying to reverse the trend.

Back to GT though, I think SJG did pretty much what it always does. It pumped out a bunch of source books; it's not particularly noted for doing adventures. Considering its focus is on GURPS and not solely being the publisher of yet another version of Traveller, I think the company succeeded in meeting its business objectives. Could it have done more to make the GT setting more interesting? Sure, but I'm not sure what its motivation would be to do so. A certain amount of version burn out had already set in and its not like the Traveller market was going to explode or anything.

Just my view, YMWV.

 

[Whipsnade]

Ok, I guess I'll play devil's advocate here... Why should anything be happening? After the Zhodani defeat in the Fifth Frontier War, the Imperium has gone through a "quiet decade".Why should there be anything jaw-dropping in the GT ATU for a short bit?

Don,

As I've written before, we don't know what strictures SJGame's TNS authors are working under. They very well may be constrained from changing things too much.

That hasn't kept them from teasing us however.

There's been a lot of fan dancing going in TNS, albeit more in previous years than during the comatose period of the last two years or so. It would have been nice if some of the fan dancing actually resulted in something. There needn't have been another huge war, but some relatively interesting times in certain regions could have goosed GMs and authors into creating/writing lots of interesting materials.

Let me use Dulinor and the Solomani as examples of what I feel have been GT's fan dancing and, in my humble opinion, lost opportunities.

Dulinor's Plot: Blowing up that gig off Capital with Dulinor aboard wasn't the beginning of the counter-plot against the Archduke. It was the end of the counter-plot instead.

Thinks about it for a moment. Dulinor had lined up support across his entire Domain for his coup. He'd suborned nobles, governments, fleets, armies, bureaucrats, you name it. The plan was that he'd kill Strephon, claim the Throne, and his Domain would rise in immediate support. Immediate support, mind you. No one was going to wait for the news from the Capital to begin their part in the coup, they were supposed take action automatically on a given date. So there were thousands of co-conspirators waiting in Ilelish for the planned date but, in GT's ATU, that date came and went without a single one of those co-conspirators doing what they were supposed to do.

That means, as Dulinor was building his coup, someone else was working right behind him dismantling it. Someone so carefully thwarted Dulinor's plot that there were almost no loose strings left behind, none of the co-conspirators were able to take the actions they had agreed upon. The only piece of the plot that still occurred was a planet-wide media buy on Dlan, the counter-plot had rolled up everything else across an entire Domain and in the Imperium before Dulinor was blown up.

Making this effort even more interesting are the many hints that Isis, Dulinor's daughter and heir, knew about the counter-plot before her father was killed.

Despite all this, despite all the things that could have gone wrong before and after, GT's ATU has Dulinor go out with not even a whimper. There's a few "Elvis sightings" after the explosion, questions about whether Dulinor or his personal medical supplies were aboard the gig are quickly answered, Isis quickly steps into her father's job, and several high level plotters "retire" for various "medical" reasons.

All of this over by 1118, over eight years ago in the ATU, and there's been nothing mentioned about any of it since. yawn...

The Solomani Confederation: The Rim has been mentioned in GT from the very beginning and that led many, myself included, to presume there would eventually be some sort of action there. There were several "event arcs" including an important political marriage, but two events seemed to hold great promise.

First, the world of Kukulcan lost a lengthy tradewar against two other Sollie worlds and decided to secede from the Confederation. The first assault on the system by the SolCon Navy failed and planning for another assault led to a mutiny and wholesale officer purge of the Navy by SolSec. By 1126, Kukulcan is still independent and the SolCon has still not attempted an assault.

Next, a rather nasty political struggle for the office of Secretary General resulted in a coup of sorts. The candidate who first won found himself recalled by his homeworld after a political change there meant he had lost his General Assembly seat. He refused to vacate the office of Secretary General despite no longer being an assembly member and began ordering the arrest of his opponents. One opponent was the other candidate for the SecGen office, he went into hiding and then launched a coup with military support. After a very brief period, the original SecGen fled, was captured...

... and the Confederation settled down as if nothing had ever happened.

I thought the Solomani Confederation "pulling a Yugoslavia" would make for rather interesting times. No huge wars, just a disintegrating Confederation which the Imperial is slowly dragged into against it's will. Instead and as with many of events it presented, GT danced up to the edge and then danced back again.


Regards,
Bill

 

[sylea]

Another potentially interesting story was what if there had been a successful assassination attempt on the Empress Iolanthe during one of her visits to Terra and the political fallout that would have resulted. Possible shades of 1914?

What happens in reality, nothing, not even a mention of a foiled attempt. What were all the Solomani political activists and terrorists doing while this golden opportunity passed them by, buying souvenir mugs?

 

[Whipsnade]

Another potentially interesting story was what if there had been a successful assassination attempt on the Empress Iolanthe during one of her visits to Terra and the political fallout that would have resulted. Possible shades of 1914?

Sylea,

Iolanthe has been to Terra twice in the ATU time line.

And, yes, nothing happened either time.

While TNS been going through a comatose period with reports containing little more than snippets from Lifestyles of the Rich and Sylean and Iolanthe Bought Fuel Here, I've been keeping my hopes up.

It seems that Strephon, Iphegenia, her husband, Isis, and Dulinor's widow are all going to be attending the premier of the same opera. The opera in question deals with the Empress Margaret's "tempestuous coming of age" and assumption of the Throne after a regency period.

You've got the man who benefited from Dulinor's death, the heir of the man who benefited from Dulinor's death, the spouse of the heir of the man who benefited from Dulinor's death, the current Archduke of Ilelish who knew in advance about Dulinor's death and gained the archdukedom through Dulinor's death, and the mother of the current Archduke of Ilelish who knew in advance about Dulinor's death and gained the archdukedom through Dulinor's death all in the same place.

One bomb would leave behind a 3 year old infant emperor Casimir whose granny is still en route for Capital, a Domain without an archduke, the Imperium facing a long regency, and one hell of a manhunt for the party or parties responsible.

Things could get interesting but, given GT's track history, I'm not holding my breath.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Lycanorukke]

Another potentially interesting story was what if there had been a successful assassination attempt on the Empress Iolanthe during one of her visits to Terra and the political fallout that would have resulted.

For your answer just look at Dulinor. Here is a man - second in power to the Emperor showing up at the Imperial palace for an important briefing, and his gig explodes due to a bomb.

Think of what would happen if the vice president of the US, on his way to brief the President was killed by a car bomb? It would be all of the news 24/7 for months, people would be screaming for action, intelligence agenies would be dragging anyone they get their hands on. And then suppose a year later his guard commander is found face down in a hotel room with a bullet in the brain....hooo boy.

But as is...with Dulinors death you get a dozen lines, a bit about his eulogy, a few idle murmers, a couple of 'Elvis lives' and thats it. Even if 'the conspiracy' tries to supress things you would have a lot more reaction than this. Not to mention all sorts of groups would be trying to say they did it (even though they didnt)- say the Ine Givar. "We struck this blow for the freedom of...blah blah".

As for Iolanthe to Terra, you would think that every nutter with a pipe bomb would be scrambling to make a name, and the tour would resemble a tour of a politican in Iraq (wearing body armour, surrounded by guards, etc), it would be a real coup for Sol-sec as well. But not even a peep about foiled plots or simple demonstrations saying "Impies go home".

The other part of note is that apart from the TNS articles become more 'fluff', they are becoming much much shorter - sometimes just one or two sentences. I'm wondering if they can't diverge or stir things up (for whatever reason), or if they are enforcing the "G" (generic) in GURPS.

 

[Vargr]

Damn, gentlemen!

I know next to nothing about SJG's ATU, but from the way you describe it, it sounds less like "SF Adventure in the Far Future" and more like "Traveller's Shady Vale Retirement Home"


While I was reading your posts I had this mental image of a 70 year old retired scout and an octogenarian ex-Trader Captain having a chat while siting on rocking chair in a field somewhere:

Trader: Hey Jim!
Scout: Yeah Bob?
Trader: Been quiet these past few decades, ain'it?
Scout: Quite so... (spits)

Time passes, wind blows in the distance

Scout: Hey Bob!
Trader: Yes Jim?
Scout: Seems like Princess Iphegenia pooped out a kid a while back.
Trader: So I heard...

Some more time passes...dusk begins to taint the sky

Trader: Jim?
Scout: Yeah Bob?
Trader: Kid's these days have it easy, don't they?
Scout: Damn right they do!
Trader: Not like when we where young...
Scout: No siree, Bob.
Trader: Goddamned right! too damn easy I say!
Scout: No Zhodani conspiracies...
Trader: No Vargr border raids.
Scout: Solomani been quieter than a popsticle on a broken down Low Berth...
Trader: Heck, I heard some of them K'kree are even starting to eat meat!
Scout: What's this Universe coming too?
Trader: Too damn easy I tell ya, not like before...it kills a man's soul with boredom.

Even more time passes...Night falls


Trader: Hey Jim?
Scout: What, Bob?
Trader: Did I ever tell you about my special runs during the Fifth Frontier War?
Scout: Only about a thousand times.
Trader: Aw heck...
Scout: But tell it again. Good way to spend the time and bring back memories.
(Jim picks a beer from the freezer and hands another to his friend)
(Both take a sip)
Trader: Kids these days...no respect. Don't know how lucky they are...
Scout: I'll second that!

- Slight pause -

Trader: Well, I think it was back in mid-1108. I was serving aboard this broken down Far Trader doing runs around the Aramis/Regina border...

Moon rises up in the sky as the two old men relive their memories..

 

[spinwardpirate]

The point of GURPS Traveller was to give us GURPS fans a set of rules to use for playing Traveller, in the era we grognards all know and love. I think that was it. Period. From there everything else was up to us. That's the GURPS way of things, concentrate on giving the GMs toolkit books. Very light on fluff, it's left up to the GM to fill in the details.

 

[Whipsnade]

The point of GURPS Traveller was to give us GURPS fans a set of rules to use for playing Traveller, in the era we grognards all know and love. I think that was it. Period. From there everything else was up to us. That's the GURPS way of things, concentrate on giving the GMs toolkit books. Very light on fluff, it's left up to the GM to fill in the details.

SP,

That's very true. GURPS focuses on providing toolkits and does that better than any other past or current gaming company. While there are relatively few GURPS adventures and campaigns, there are hundreds of GURPS adventure seeds and campaign settings.

From a RPG toolkit standpoint, SJGames is the gold standard.

However when SJGames took on the job of publishing a web version of JTAS after GDW's retirement, a version which including the venerable TNS feature, the presumption by the Hobby that SJGame's TNS would be as exciting as GDW's TNS was only natural.

Again, we don't know the internal and external strictures the SJGames TNS writers have worked and do work under. We do know that SJGames' version of TNS has become rather "fluffy" over the last few years with less consequential and far shorter items than those previously posted.


Regards,
Bill