Law Levels...please explain

[SOCOM242]

I guess this would be a good place to ask this.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the Law Level code on the UPP's. My question is if a world has a LL of 1 (Body pistols, explosives/grenades, and poison gas prohibited), does that mean you could walk around with Shotguns? And vice versa, if you were on a LL 7 world, where Shotguns are prohibited? It's just that it seems so randomly thrown around, PLUS it's the kind of thing PC's could exploit in the game.

I was about to reorganize the LL's with 1 being melee weapons as a prohibition and making the higher the code, the more destructive the weapon. But that would require some kind of conversion from old code to new code. It's possible, but I'd like to stick with what the original game rules entail, and seeing that the UPP's been around more that a quarter century, it's gotta be good!

If anyone has a better way of explaining the progression of the Law Levels, please let me know. Thanks for your help!

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by SOCOM242:
My question is if a world has a LL of 1 (Body pistols, explosives/grenades, and poison gas prohibited), does that mean you could walk around with Shotguns? And vice versa, if you were on a LL 7 world, where Shotguns are prohibited?

The restrictions are cumulative - the restrictions of LL7 include all of those from LLs 1-6 as well.

Edit: And yes, at LL1, you can pack a shotgun or an SMG - in fact, you probably should.

I hope that helps.

 

[remoh]

Originally posted by SOCOM242:
I'm trying to wrap my head around the Law Level code on the UPP's. My question is if a world has a LL of 1 (Body pistols, explosives/grenades, and poison gas prohibited), does that mean you could walk around with Shotguns? And vice versa, if you were on a LL 7 world, where Shotguns are prohibited? It's just that it seems so randomly thrown around, PLUS it's the kind of thing PC's could exploit in the game.

Well, yes but remeber if the PC can walk around with shotguns, so can everyone else. Keep in mind that NPC will react to what ever the PC do. If they come into town like a Armed Raiding Party the townfolks and Law Enforcement will respond. People tend to be alot less helpful when facing a shotgun barrel and things can quickly escalate into Deadly violence when everyone has a gun.

Keep this in mind if you feel the PC are trying to 'exploit' the Law Level

-Pete

 

[SOCOM242]

Hmmm...let me see if I'm following this correctly

So a LL1 planet forbids body pistols (built to evade detection) explosives and chemical weapons, perhaps because they do the most damage, but larger personal weapons (laser rifles, SMG's, swords) are acceptable because they are less concealable and they damage they can cause is less discriminate and more personal.

The higher up the LL code goes, the less advanced (?) and dangerous the weapons become. Going from energy weapons (LL 2) going all the way down to swords (LL 8). So on a LL 4 planet, you can carry personal firearms and melee weapons, but military grade and energy weapons are prohibited.

Is that about right, or am I missing something here. BTW - thank you all for your responses.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Another way to look at it is the LAW score gives the value that one most roll on 2D in order to avoid being stopped and questioned by the local authorities. Without DMs, this makes LAW-2 or less an automatic 'Free Pass' to carry almost anything. At LAW-A, you start dealing with REAL oppressive societies. At LAW-C+ paranoia really sets in, especially on the part of the ruling class.

 

[Border Reiver]

It is unfortunate that Law Level is forever tied to weapon legality since it should (and is) much more complicated.

DGP's Grand Census or World Builders Handbook has guidelines for dissecting the UPP for more colour. Well worth seeking out a copy.

 

[Plankowner]

SOC, I think you know understand the Law Level system. The more destructive the weapon, the lower the LL that will prohibit it. So yes, at LL 4 you can carry personal fire arms and/or swords, but not a Laser Rifle. That is probably about like the old west. Most people carried a pistol or something around, even the NPCs. Sure PCs could carry that weapon, but so will just about everyone they go up against.

Although not mentioned, I figured LL1 prohibits any weapon of mass distruction, not just the types listed.

At LL 0 there are no rules. Everyone is probably packing things, so if the PC's want to carry rocket launchers and grenades, fine, but remember that so will everyone else......

 

[SOCOM242]

OK, gang. I believe I have wrapped my noodle around the LL codes. Thanks for all the replies and help, truly appreciated. I may master Traveller yet

 

[aramis]

Simplification for play: You can generate the two major aspects (Weapons, Harassment) randomly by 2dX-(x+1), using dice of your favorite flavor... (So d6 would be 2d6-7, d3 would be 2d3-4, etc.)

Another factor you can easily add is systemic corruption: a 2d save on this is required to get a fair trial, legal is a dm-level.

There are a number of checks I run versus LL:
Alcohol: LL or less on 2d bans it
Marijuanna or equivalents on 2d: LL or less bans
Narcotics: LL or less on 1d crimminalizes, on 3d makes it a capital crime
ID: LL or less on 2d criminalizes not having it on person outside home.
Death Penalty: 1D for LL+ or 3d for LL-

 

[epicenter00]

.02:

It's a bug (or a feature) Traveller. UPP is a fun tool, but it's also a huge headache, designed as it is for a much more simple game than it is now.

You can have hours of fun trying finagle something logical from these archaic systems, which I think is the fun for a lot of the LBB purists on here. Like the infamous very low law level, high population planet, with low tech, and a tainted atmosphere. You can either throw it out for being the some guy's rush job in generating UPPs or you can try and make it work somehow.

It's sometimes fun.

 

[SOCOM242]

Originally posted by Aramis:
There are a number of checks I run versus LL:
Alcohol: LL or less on 2d bans it
Marijuanna or equivalents on 2d: LL or less bans
Narcotics: LL or less on 1d crimminalizes, on 3d makes it a capital crime
ID: LL or less on 2d criminalizes not having it on person outside home.
Death Penalty: 1D for LL+ or 3d for LL-

That is truly inspiring, Aramis Definitely gonna use those throws IMTU.

 

[SOCOM242]

One final question on the subject. I probably should've caught this earlier, but I noticed the LL on some worlds exceed the number 9 and go into letter codes. I'm assuming at this point, these numbers represent the throw for law enforcement "harassment". If that's the case, it shouldn't go higher than C (12) right?

For the record, I was looking at District 268 for the start of my CT campaign when I noticed the higher law codes.

 

[remoh]

Well, the T20 book goes up to LL: L (20)

Each level beyond LL: 9, the methods of Law Enforcement are more restrictive. ex, LL: C-Unrestricted Invasion of Privacy. LL: G-Severe Penalties for Petty Infractions, etc.

In the T20 handbook, the LL is also the chance (LL/20) that the PC are harrassed by local Law Enforcement. This can vary from Groundless Arrest and Emprisonment to just demanding ID and temporary detainment.

-Pete

 

[SOCOM242]

Ah, I see. Thanks for pointing that out Remoh. I've kinda been limiting myself to CT rules and books, but I've got the other rules sets including T20. Thanks again.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I don't think you should see any non-T20 LLs higher than 12, SOCOM. In T20, though, they are going to run higher because of the d20.

 

[Whipsnade]

SOCOM,

As Keklas wisely pointed out, law levels in CT began as a number you rolled against to create an encounter with law enforcement officials. The number was primarily an encounter generator and, in the less formal and more free wheeling RPG rules of the time, the type of encounter was left up to the GM! (It could be a shakedown, a roust, a friendly nod, etc.)

As people demanded more and more details (rather than being happy to make them up for themselves) more and more 'information' was attached to that single digit in the UWP. Things like weapon prohibitions, vehicle operation, trading restrictions, and the like were all crammed into that poor single number.

Give yourself some 'wiggle' room as the GM. Use the listed LL as a guide or starting point and then apply some common sense. A planet's law level will not be uniform in time and place; i.e. you are free to carry that shotgun out in the boonies but toting one through a shopping mall is a little too much. Make the law levels suit the needs of your campaign, do not make your campaign bow to that single number in the UWP.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Border Reiver:
It is unfortunate that Law Level is forever tied to weapon legality since it should (and is) much more complicated.

This is probably a result of a political phenomenon more or less unique to the USA (where Traveller was created): weapon ownership as a major political issue, with restrictions on weapon ownership often being percieved as restrictions on personal freedom.

An apology and a clarification in advance: I did not intend to criticise this specific socio-political phenomenon, only to state its existance; please keep any political arguments on whether or not the avarage citizens should own a gun in the Political Pulpit forum.

 

[Liam Devlin]

SOCOM-Bill, Keklas, Employee2-4601, others..

Traveller's history of the UWP/UPP digit system has caused more discussions & arguments than previous historical eras of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Answer: 'As many as they want to'.

SOCOM--the suggestions by all of of the above (and myself) are akin to my own. LL means now more than just "gun-ownership". The early free-wheeling days of CT where players ran into trouble with planetary law more often than not, this was a streamlined simplistic solution f that particular variant of our fav game system.

It represents personal freedoms, taxation, etc, etc.. Like Bill says, make that digit work for you--not you for that single digit.

I would add from my personal TU, the practice tweak of using that darn digit as a tax/monetary exchange modifier (for thems with mercantile aspirations). LL is also applied/ adjusted by the planetary government digit in world creation as well. Amount of interstellar trade is modified by starport type, as a general rule of thumb. Keep the gun ownership as is in LL interpretation, as its already been done to death. Like wise the current LL's also state which levels carry police-state intrusiveness (C+)

The level of complexity for your TU is of course, yours to command, and detail to the players.

The general formulae

LL = Exchange level by 5% increments beginning at Low Law Level 1.
example: LL-6 = a base 30% taxation rate for monetary exchange. Meaning if local currency is needed, and the offworld folks (your players!) have Imperial creds, they'll get back 70% of their Imperial creds in the local currency for local business needs purchases.

DM's

Starport A (-10%); B (-5%); C (0); D (+5%); E (+10%); & X (+15%).

So the math looks like LL + Starport DM = planetary exchange rates.

Taxation/ personal freedoms:

Government (Same 5% increment) level DM same scale: Less Govt equals less taxes,more personal freedoms just as More (higher level)govt = more taxes general/ less personal freedoms as a general rule of thumb. And placed over the planet's population as a DM (less the tax base of folk the govt can squeeze for revenues) & Starport type DM.

Population Low (0-4)= DM of -15%; Pop Middle (5-8) -10%; Pop High (9-A)= -5%

the math boils down to Govt digit + Pop DM + Starport DM (as above)

example, Govt 9 (impersonal bureaucracy)= +45% level of income taxation imposed on a world with population 5 (middle) with an A-class starport = 45% total taxation of their annual incomes there.

Another example: Planet with Govt A (Charismatic Dictatorship, or +50%), on a world with pop 4 (-15%),& has an E class starport (+10%) = an overall 45% taxation rate.

Last example: Planet with Govt. F (+75%), with a High Population A (-5%), & with a Starport C-class (+0%) for a total taxation level of 70% of the planetary citizen's annual incomes.

This is just something I cooked up off the top of my head with generalities--its adherence to RW-RL logic and examples is not be construed as concrete, but an example of how you yourself as GM can generate from the UWP/UPP digits some of the detail your player's may require.

Now in the Imperium, starport law levels tend to run from LL-1 to LL-3 (1d3), and you get into the extrality-zone issues, not yet mentioned here.

For Non-Imperial, Non-aligned worlds of course, this model above can be of some use.

Interpreting Taxation levels, & freedom levels boils down to this (IMHO only) if your a sophont, and they take more than half your pay annually in taxes there, thats one level of an intrusive goverment (without LL-C+ Paramilitary statehood).

Given the T-standard 24-hour day, and an 8hr work day model, thats 1/3 of your daily time & 16 hrs to do as you please (rest, eat, get to work, etc), or 33%. The omnipresence of govt/ freedoms can be broadly interpreted then by the taxation level--if they're taking half your wages or more, trust me the Govt on that world has invested those monies/revenues in its power structure. Likewise, if its to stay in power, it has to give the people it rules something back in return--socialized medicine, guaranteed employment, welfare, a strong military/defense (cynically seen by some as keeping them in place OVER the population, of course by outsiders), and protection from criminal elements (defined as you see fit, Oh GM!).

Thats my 0.000000125Mcr worth for ya. As always gentlemen, great ideas & discussion.

 

[Dekkion]

quote:
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Originally posted by Border Reiver:
It is unfortunate that Law Level is forever tied to weapon legality since it should (and is) much more complicated.
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What about using an overall Law Level and then listing a separate Law sub-Level for exceptions if they exist? For instance, the 2320AD playtest files lists all Earth governments as Law Level 8, including Texas (an independent nation), but Texas regulates weapons at Law Level 4 (banning only light assault and military weaponry). Or for a contemporary analogy, consider Great Britain, which would probably considered a Law Level 4 or 5 government, but bans ownership of any firearm other than single shot rifles and shotguns (a Law Level 6 rating).

 

[epicenter00]

Gun Ownership may be a very American view. But frankly, let's face it. It's also very much a RPG view as well. Ultimately, player characters are, pound for pound (or kilo for kilo) some of the most paranoid and heavily armed people in the known universe. A single party of player-characters in Traveller tend to own enough firearms to equip a small army. They don't just own a weapon for every occasion, they have a few alternates just in case, too!

The first thing any player wants to do when they leave their ship is to carry those weapons. It's of vital importance to the GM to know what they can carry, if they can carry anything at all.

Should Law Level be more robust and descriptive? Of course it should.

But then again, I could convincingly make the same arguement for pretty much every field in the UPP as being overly generalized and not informative enough. But I think the UPP system is great because it shows a great insight into the mentality of the Third Imperium.