Imperial Noble Income in T5

[david.wendelken]

The question of income and land for Imperial Nobles is a pretty important one, and it seems to be pretty confusing for lots of people. (Including me!)

My understanding is as follows. I've put points in bold where I don't feel I have enough info to form a definitive opinion on "how things should be".

So, we have 3 kinds of nobles:

• Landed
• Honour
• Ceremonial.

Ceremonial nobles are nobles because they have a job that includes a noble rank. Once they don't have that job anymore, they aren't a ceremonial noble anymore.

• They might revert to non-noble status or become honor nobles. I am unclear on this.
• Their income as a ceremonial noble is whatever that job pays. I am unaware of any source that gives guidance on salaries for high level Imperial government officials.

Landed nobles (and gentry) get land grants from SOC A on upwards. That's on page 98 of the T5 rulebook. (At least in the 1st edition one that I have!) These land grants provide "profits" as described in the same location. The use of the word profits is important because that implies that the salaries and expenses necessary to do whatever is being done on those land grants to generate those profits don't have to be paid for out of the profit.

Honour nobles are folks that receive a title for some reason that doesn't include land grants or an important government job. For example, this might include heirs and other family members of a landed noble if the (still living) landed noble didn't pass on one of his lesser titles to his heir(s). It also includes people who did things the Emperor finds worthy enough for social advancement. I have not found anywhere in the T5 rules where honour nobles, particularly those ennobled for extraordinary accomplishments, receive any income from the Imperium. Now, a TAS membership could provide an income, but there is no guarantee of receiving one. An ennobled commoner would not necessarily have sufficient income to maintain their station, which would lead to nobility that appear shabby. That's certainly the norm amongst real-world societies, so perhaps it's also the norm in the Imperium. Is it the norm? Or, as a compromise, does it make sense that an honour noble would have the same land grant a soc-A person gets on the landed nobility. This would provide a minimum steady income of CR 5,000, and likely more, depending on the planet the grant was on.

Now, it seems to me that a character could have landed noble ranks, then "change careers" and earn an honour title. Agreed? And if so, would the honour title would be one rank higher, i.e., a landed Baronet would also become an honour Baron? Or would they become an honour Knight?

If so, one could go the other way, too. Right? That would mean that an honour Count would change careers to the Noble one and get promoted. Would he become a Landed Knight?

Enquiring minds want to know!

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Sounds like France 1789

 

[david.wendelken]

Sounds like France 1789

I asked a lot of very specific questions and I don't see how this answers any of them. Could you explain?

 

[whulorigan]

Noble standing and its benefits are retained after CharGen. That is why they are in the Core Rules in CharGen for Characters and Mustering Out.

ALL Nobles receive a Land Grant commensurate with the appropriate title, regardless of whether they are a Landed Noble (proper), Ceremonial Noble, or Honour Noble. I confirmed this with Marc Miller directly at TravellerCon/USA one year. This is their means of "personal maintenance".

Landed Nobles (proper) - i.e. World-Noble Representatives - those who go thru the Nobles Career - gain additional sources of lucrative income thru the CharGen process in terms of Noble Proxies (= Cash Value) and Directorships and other sources of income. Thus, Landed Nobles (proper) are usually wealthier and better connected and more personally powerful than Ceremonial or Honour Nobles of the same Social Level.

Note also that the mechanics of the "promotion" process of the Nobles Career, as written, can never promote a character higher than Viscount. They can get higher level honor titles thru the Character development table (C6+1).

A Ceremonial Noble who retires from his career becomes (effectively) an honor noble of the same prior rank - He is not demoted. Remember, nobility is a Social distinction, not a job. Nobility qualifies you to hold certain positions; it is not identical to a position.

A pre-existing (Honor) Noble who enters the Nobles Career (becoming a Landed Noble (proper)) will enter it at the Noble Rank that he already holds. If he receives a C6+1 outside the intrigues/elevation process of the Noble Career, it is an Honor-title increase only. As to whether the next Intrigue/elevation should be calculated from the lower Landed-Noble rank or the Higher Honor noble rank is ambiguous.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on the society, and how prevalent is a concrete definition of your standing within it.

Titles tend to be pegged to a hierarchical ladder, ordered, rather than chaotic, and is an indication as to how much power the title holder wields, or should.

Titles can also be distributed for past achievements, and give prestige, rather than power, though that prestige can be leveraged.

Land grants attached to them would differ from fiefdoms, one usually being personal, and the other administrative.

 

[whulorigan]

Titles can also be distributed for past achievements, and give prestige, rather than power, though that prestige can be leveraged.

Yes, and that has always been one of the often-overlooked benefits of the Social Standing score in general. This is one of the great rationales for noble courtesy titles thru cadet lines of a family. You have the title and prestige, but no official duties; you are just a member of the "House" that nobody really wants to mess with, and otherwise don't necessarily have loads of excess cash on hand.

Land grants attached to them would differ from fiefdoms, one usually being personal, and the other administrative.

Since the term "fiefdom" can sometimes be ambiguously defined or understood differently in Traveller terms by different players, this is where I really like Aramis's term "See" as the purview of a Noble's official appointment of oversight or responsibility (if any). So an Honor Noble might be so because s/he served well in some other endeavor or did some remarkable deed, or might simply be so because s/he holds a Legacy Title thru his/her family who once held power but have long since been relieved of official responsibilities, or because s/he is a member of a cadet line of a family and has a lower non-substantive courtesy title (which in Traveller is still officially considered a Noble like in Continental European Nobility and unlike the British Peerage). Such Honor Nobles have no "See" to speak of.

But suppose such an individual were ambitious and came to the notice of a member of the Peerage, and that person's name were brought up i official circles and made its way thru official channels, eventually leading to an appointment to an administrative position or other position within the Bureaucracy. That person has now transitioned to being a Ceremonial Noble with a "See" defined by the Position acquired (e.g. Regional Imperial Finance Minister, Head of the Imperial Ministry of Justice for a Subsector or Sector, Imperial Court Judge, or (in the case of a High Landed Title) - Subsector Governor (i.e. Subsector Duke, or acting Subsector Noble Governor). A Landed Noble (proper) would have representation of his world (or worlds) before the Subsector Government, Sector Moot/Senate, and/or Imperial Moot as his/her "See" (or representing the Imperium to the world in the case of a Landed Imperial Knight).

In either case, the "Land Grant" of the Noble (Honor, Ceremonial, or Landed (proper)) is a personal appurtenance of the position for the Noble's personal maintenance, and to ensure that the Emperor's Nobles project the appearance of in fact being Nobles before both the Imperial citizenry as well as other Polities, and not be an embarrassment on the interstellar stage. Note that at the GM's discretion, for Honor or Ceremonial Nobles some other form of equivalent remuneration could be substituted for the Land Grant, such as an equally valued stipend or pension, or stock-shares whose dividends provide an equivalent remuneration, or an income form some Corporate Board Directorships, etc.

 

[david.wendelken]

Awesome! Thanks!!!

 

[Condottiere]

See would imply bureaucratic oversight, not granted to a specific family or clan.

The actual title tied to it might be from an equivalent, but different, rank tree.

 

[bookwyrm]

I just want to say that many of the answers to the OP have really helped me with ideas for using/playing PC Nobles, and how to look at Nobles in general in the background.

On a side note, for those who have posts explaining Nobles in Traveller, I've read a bunch of them and they have also helped me with many aspects of Nobles in Traveller, so thanks to all of you.

 

[whulorigan]

See would imply bureaucratic oversight, not granted to a specific family or clan.

Which works well for Ceremonial/Rank positions, as the "See" is typically an appointment and usually non-hereditary, unlike the Social Standing title, which would only be non-hereditary if it was explicitly granted as such as a life-title at the outset.

The actual title tied to it might be from an equivalent, but different, rank tree.

For those Sees with an attached title, this might be so, and present an interesting character portrait.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I asked a lot of very specific questions and I don't see how this answers any of them. Could you explain?

 

[david.wendelken]

Page 96 "Noble Lands" says "The first hex in any grant is on the Noble's homeworld."

Does that mean the player's birth world or the main world of the system the grant is for. Example: Player born on Twana, gets a land grant as the landed baron on Byret.

Does the first hex go to Twana or to the main world in the Byret system?

 

[whulorigan]

Page 96 "Noble Lands" says "The first hex in any grant is on the Noble's homeworld."

Does that mean the player's birth world or the main world of the system the grant is for. Example: Player born on Twana, gets a land grant as the landed baron on Byret.

Does the first hex go to Twana or to the main world in the Byret system?

It is an ambiguity. Technically (rules-wise), it should mean the first, as homeworld is a specified, defined term within the rules (and can mean either the birthworld or the world that the player relocated to after birth and now calls his homeworld.

Logic-wise, the second seems to make more sense. If going with the first interpretation above, I would specify (house-rule) that the second hex definitely goes on the mainworld of the grant at the very least.

 

[Condottiere]

Land grants would depend on what's available, rather than actually going out and getting a real estate agent to secure something specific.

Fief, or see, or domain, would be specific, and may require relocation to another system.

 

[david.wendelken]

That makes sense. It was a poorly written rule, and meant to be mainworld of the grant system.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Noble standing and its benefits are retained after CharGen. That is why they are in the Core Rules in CharGen for Characters and Mustering Out.

ALL Nobles receive a Land Grant commensurate with the appropriate title, regardless of whether they are a Landed Noble (proper), Ceremonial Noble, or Honour Noble. I confirmed this with Marc Miller directly at TravellerCon/USA one year. This is their means of "personal maintenance".

Landed Nobles (proper) - i.e. World-Noble Representatives - those who go thru the Nobles Career - gain additional sources of lucrative income thru the CharGen process in terms of Noble Proxies (= Cash Value) and Directorships and other sources of income. Thus, Landed Nobles (proper) are usually wealthier and better connected and more personally powerful than Ceremonial or Honour Nobles of the same Social Level.

Note also that the mechanics of the "promotion" process of the Nobles Career, as written, can never promote a character higher than Viscount. They can get higher level honor titles thru the Character development table (C6+1).

A Ceremonial Noble who retires from his career becomes (effectively) an honor noble of the same prior rank - He is not demoted. Remember, nobility is a Social distinction, not a job. Nobility qualifies you to hold certain positions; it is not identical to a position.

A pre-existing (Honor) Noble who enters the Nobles Career (becoming a Landed Noble (proper)) will enter it at the Noble Rank that he already holds. If he receives a C6+1 outside the intrigues/elevation process of the Noble Career, it is an Honor-title increase only. As to whether the next Intrigue/elevation should be calculated from the lower Landed-Noble rank or the Higher Honor noble rank is ambiguous.

(See bolded text) Beg to differ, I have a least one proper rolled up Count in play so it does and can go up past Viscount with basic Risk/Reward.

But I do agree with the rest.

Page 96 "Noble Lands" says "The first hex in any grant is on the Noble's homeworld."

Does that mean the player's birth world or the main world of the system the grant is for. Example: Player born on Twana, gets a land grant as the landed baron on Byret.

Does the first hex go to Twana or to the main world in the Byret system?

Well, Homeworld is where you were born so…yeah, it might be a long slog to get to your Homeworld Land Grant. So, in your example the first Land Grant hex is located on Twana.

 

[whulorigan]

(See bolded text) Beg to differ, I have a least one proper rolled up Count in play so it does and can go up past Viscount with basic Risk/Reward.

Then one of us is missing something. Are you using T5.10?

Follow with me and see if I have overlooked something:

​

NOBLE RETURN/INTRIGUE - Elevation:​

Roll Soc or greater (no Mods, but possibly Flux) to rise to the next higher Noble Rank and its increase in Social Standing (if any).​

​

Flux. *Once* in the Noble Career after a successful INTRIGUE, invoke Flux as a Mod on Elevation Roll. ​

​

So my Knight (C6/Soc=11B) enters the Nobles and successfully rolls 11 for INTRIGUE, bumping him to C6/Soc=12c (Baronet). Next term, he continues to be successful, rolling a 12 and rising to Baron (also C6/Soc=12C). Again my politically astute Baron rolls for INTRIGUE next term and rolls 12 again, rising to Marquis (C6/Soc=13D).

[Note that at this point that I cannot roll 13 or higher w/o Mods, which are not allowed, except as noted above].

Now my political enemies think they have finally got me where they want me, but I out maneuver them and pull a one-time Flux roll as a Mod out of my pocket that they will never forget, and I roll 12 + (Flux= +2) = 14 for my intrigue and elevation, bumping me to Viscount (C6/Soc=14e).

Where do I go from here? I cannot roll 14 or higher on 2D, I cannot use Mods, and I have used my one-time Flux Mod.

Unless of course you are adding an Honor title elevation via the Noble Skills Table C (1D Roll = 6 is C6+1), I do not see where you can go from here.

Have I missed something?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Then one of us is missing something. Are you using T5.10?

Follow with me and see if I have overlooked something:

​

NOBLE RETURN/INTRIGUE - Elevation:​

Roll Soc or greater (no Mods, but possibly Flux) to rise to the next higher Noble Rank and its increase in Social Standing (if any).​

​

Flux. *Once* in the Noble Career after a successful INTRIGUE, invoke Flux as a Mod on Elevation Roll. ​

​

So my Knight (C6/Soc=11B) enters the Nobles and successfully rolls 11 for INTRIGUE, bumping him to C6/Soc=12c (Baronet). Next term, he continues to be successful, rolling a 12 and rising to Baron (also C6/Soc=12C). Again my politically astute Baron rolls for INTRIGUE next term and rolls 12 again, rising to Marquis (C6/Soc=13D).

[Note that at this point that I cannot roll 13 or higher w/o Mods, which are not allowed, except as noted above].

Now my political enemies think they have finally got me where they want me, but I out maneuver them and pull a one-time Flux roll as a Mod out of my pocket that they will never forget, and I roll 12 + (Flux= +2) = 14 for my intrigue and elevation, bumping me to Viscount (C6/Soc=14e).

Where do I go from here? I cannot roll 14 or higher on 2D, I cannot use Mods, and I have used my one-time Flux Mod.

Unless of course you are adding an Honor title elevation via the Noble Skills Table C (1D Roll = 6 is C6+1), I do not see where you can go from here.

Have I missed something?

Okay, fair enough, might have to go and check that. Been a long, long time since I did any CharGen. And it was Beta or 5.0..