• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

How many planets in our solar system? - part 2

Its got gravity...its got a moon.. makes it a planet in my way of looking out there.

Now..off the reservation a bit, how soon do we find out if it does have an atmosphere?
 
UB313 doesn't have a moon (none that we know of) - it's EL61 that has one.

Also, the asteroid Ida has a moon too, and that's only a few km across (and it has gravity too. Very low gravity, but it's still there). Does that make that a planet too?

UB313 probably doesn't have an atmosphere, it's way too far out. Eeen Pluto's atmosphere only appears when it's closest to the sun.
 
Size matters. And I suppose shape. If we are calling orbiting bodies of other bodies 'moons', or 'moonlets' of another larger body, then it ought to be a planet. Pluto has an atmosphere. Tradition or not, its still a planet in my mind.

Now,large asteroids & planets both seem to have objects orbiting them we discover. Is it their shape that defines them? To me, A chunk of rock in space broken off from an ancient collision long ago is a chink of rock, to my way of simple thinking.Ida, is too small to be a planet, IIRC the news of it right.

A 'spherical' shaped independent body orbiting the star, and has moons or a moon (Pluto IIRC has Charon, a singular moon as well) is a planet.

Maybe traveller has prejudiced me.shrugs.
I'm not in the IAU argument at all. Just another dirtsider looking up with preconceived ideas, Mal.

Frankly, i wasn't even aware the IAU existed till I read the article Sigg posted, much less the argument over what defines a planet, or an asteroid :rofl: So thank you Mal & Sigg, and this thread for the discovery of those earthly things!
 
I must admit, I'm somewhat entertained by all the discussion that's turned up on various boards since this was announced about what people think is or isn't a planet. Largely because a lot of times people come across all authoritative about it (when obviously they're not), and a lot of times there are some serious holes in what people suggest.

Obviously people are just speculating and talking and that's cool, everyone's got their own ideas about it and it's interesting to see how wildly different they can be - but at the end of the day the people who decide on these definitions are the folks at the IAU. As Liam says, everyone else - myself included of course - are just 'dirtsiders with preconceived ideas'
.

I don't really know what they're going to come up with in the end. There's good arguments on all sides - I can see the reasons for dropping Pluto and just having 8 'real' planets and more minor ones. I can see why it'd be a real pain in the ass to drop Pluto as a planet and also how attached people generally are to it culturally. I can also see the logic behind keeping it as a planet and saying anything bigger is a planet too. If they ever find a world out there that is bigger than Mars or Mercury then that'd REALLY mess things up.

I suspect they'll end up saying that Pluto isn't a planet and neither is this new body, but then what if we really do find something bigger - maybe even as big as Earth - out there? They still have to define some cutoff point.
 
So do the good folk at IAU actually have a definition for what is or isn't a planet?

Are there any criteria, or is that something that they have to thrash out?

You'd think that they would have thought about this a bit before now...
 
They have thought about it a lot. They still haven't hammered out a definition that everyone agrees on and that can account for everything thet we've found so far. But I think we should have one within the year at this rate.
 
Traveller, however, DOES have a workable definition, implied by the system generation rules.

To wit:
World: Any body which is not fusing hydrogen by natural process.
A body of 500 miles[1] diameter or larger, which is the focal point of orbit for all other bodies in the same expected orbit[2], based upon the standard orbits table.
A moon orbits a planet, and can be a large body, and even a mainworld.

[1] In other words, size 1+. Size S is "small body", not planet, and 0 is ued for asteroids.
[2] this is how we eliminate asteroid and planetoid belts, rosettes, etc. Since their focal point of orbit is the star, they are not planets. Likewise, Regina is a world, but not a planet; it orbits assinoboia, and assinoboia is a planet because it's bigger than 500 mi diameter, and all other items in it's orbit are orbiting it.

By this mode, we can eliminate 2 of the listed additionals, ignore the asteroid belt, and say: 10 to 12 Currently; more to come.
We got Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, and at least one of those extraplutonic worlds.

YMMV
 
That's a reasonable definition, except there's no such things as a 'standard orbits table'. ;)

Personally, I'd go with "any body larger than 400km in diameter orbiting a star that is not a member of a 'swarm' or 'belt' of objects in similar orbits"

400 km being the diameter needed for self-gravity to make objects spherical.

So this would rule out Ceres, Pluto, and any other member of a 'belt' but retain all the other planets.

Pluto would be the sole exception to this, purely for cultural/historical reasons.
 
I'd have to concur with Mal on this on the size rule for gravity at the 400km diameter for gravity rule. Ceres, Ida, etc would fall there for sure.

Again, there's Pluto defying the rules, but then, nature does that to we humans from time to time--we impose, and it laughs at us with a paradox. ;)
 
Fact is, if more KBOs had been discovered around 1930, then Pluto wouldn't be called a planet. It'd be like the asteroids in the early 1800s when they were first discovered in rapid succession - when it became apparent that there were lots of small objects there between Mars and Jupiter it became obvious that they shouldn't be considered 'planets'.

Problem is, there's been over 70 years between the discovery of Pluto and the next KBO. Which is why we're having the discussion we're having at the moment
.
 
And they're like buses.

You wait for ages and they all come at once ;)

Are there any larger KB objects - Mars or even Earth sized - theorised from orbital perturbations of Pluto or Neptune?
 
I thought I heard something a few years about the aphelions of a bunch of comets having the same distance, implying there was something out there... dunno what became of that though.
 
Further to that 'comet orbit alignment' thing I mentioned earlier:

From:
http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~jjm9638/matese.html

In an article in the journal Icarus, we have suggested that there is statistically significant evidence that this concentration, amounting to an excess of approximately 25%, could be caused by a companion to the Sun which aids the galactic tide in making Oort cloud comets observable. The companion is estimated to have a mass of 3-5 MJupiter and a mean distance at the interaction site of 25000 AU. If there is no substantive inner Oort cloud, a closer orbit is possible. Its location along the great circle is not presently predictable and that will present a problem for detection, but it is potentially observable in the radio using the VLA and should also be observable in the infrared at 5 microns using the next generation of space telescopes such as Spitzer and SOFIA. An object with these properties would be readily seen by WISE (Ned Wright's Wide-Field Infrared Survey Explorer), recently approved for a 2008 launch in NASA's Medium-class Explorer program of lower cost, highly focused, rapid-development scientific spacecraft. The estimated mass of the companion puts it below the nominal brown dwarf limit (~ 13 MJupiter ) where deuterium fusion can occur and would make it a planet in that context. However its location in the outer Oort cloud means that it is not possible that it formed in the protosolar planetary disk. The object could have been ejected from another stellar system and captured by the Sun in their complex star forming region.

At the Berlin meeting of "Asteroids, Comets, Meteors 2002" (co-authored by Jack J. Lissauer, link to paper below) we have presented supportive evidence of the solar companion conjecture. Since the Icarus paper was published twenty seven new outer Oort cloud comets have been discovered. The previously noted overpopulated band maintains an excess. This strengthens the statistical evidence for correlated orbital elements as predicted by the analysis. The figure below includes the best fit perturber orbit and can be compared to the corresponding figure in the 1999 Icarus paper which did not include the new data. It is argued that the correlated data found is highly unlikely to be the result of "bad data" - which typically reduces real correlations. Nor is it likely to be spuriously produced by some unspecified "observational selection effect" - a situation where limitations on our ability to observe comets can spuriously affect the distributions of the observed data. To date, the only documented observational selection effect applicable to this data is the well-known one that comets with large perihelion distances are less likely to be sufficiently well observed so that their energies (i. e. semimajor axes) are accurately known. We discuss in these papers why this selection effect will tend to spuriously reduce the predicted correlations rather than enhance them. A recent paper ("Biases in Cometary Catalogues and Planet X", J. Horner and N. W. Evans, MNRAS 335 (3) 641, (2002)) has concluded that a bound Jovian mass companion is a "possible, perhaps even likely, explanation of the unusual pattern".
 
I read a news story about the time these new objects were announced that contained a statement from the President of the IAU, to the effect that even if they ended up with a definition of planet that would not otherwise include Pluto it would probably be grandfathered in to avoid causing confusion. I can see the arguments for doing that- it's been referred to as a planet for 70+ years now, and changing it to a KBO in all the books would probably generated more confusion that it would resolve in the long run.
 
Back
Top