How Hard To Hide A Shipyard?

[jawillroy]

Supposing a world wanted to build warships and not have the Imperium (or whatever interstellar government was in place IYTU) suss it out, what would you expect they'd have to do? Assume that there's fairly regular Scout and IN patrols coming through, but not an interdict or full-on blockade; also assume that any known commercial shipyards will be monitored.

How big a ship would a yard-in-hiding be able to produce? I doubt a world could get away with cobbling together ships of the tens-of-kilotons range without somebody twigging to it, but if Bargleargle 5 wanted to cobble together ships on the sly to menace the trade of Arglebargle 3, how big would be too big in your view?

Background: IMTU, within Imperial space, there are basically two classes of worlds: full members of the Imperium, and protectorate worlds.

The basic differences:
Full member worlds have representation at the capital
Full member worlds' citizens are full citizens of the Imperium
Full member worlds are expected to build ships to support the Imperial fleet
Since a large part of membership is tied to planetary support of interstellar trade, virtually all have class A or B ports.

Protectorate worlds have essentially no representation at the capital
Their citizens are not citizens of the Imperium, except through Imperial service
Protectorate worlds may produce commercial vessels, but are not permitted to raise a jump-capable battle fleet, or build ships of the line.
Only a few protectorate worlds have A or B ports, most end to wind up backwater worlds:

Protectorate worlds who want "in" generally keep their noses clean: but there are always exceptions: so Imperial Navy Intelligence, naturally, keeps pretty close tabs on what sort of ships the protectorates produce.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I'd suggest hiding the shipyard in the deep outsystem.

using earth as an example, you could stick a yard out at, say, the neptune Sun L4 Point (about 60 degrees "ahead" of neptune on its orbital path).

It's far enough away that it'd be bloody hard to see (as far as i know, we have not seen anything sited at the real neptune sun L4 and L5 points), and, cruically, the quickest way to get their would be to jump.

why is that important?

say you are a navy warship sat in orbit around the mainworld. your watching ships come and ships go. now, if it watched a ship jetting off under manuver drive into the depths of the systems, towards some "uninhabited" rockball, then you would want to know where it was going. thier may be a pirate base out thier, or a hidden base by a forign power, or just some blokes trying to dodge thier taxes. anyway, the navy warship starts poking around, and boom! the games up.

take 2

The warship watches a ship leave on a normal vector to a nearby system. the ship jumps. big deal, you know where it`s going. if you hang around long enough, 3 weeks later it comes back. nothing out of the ordinary.

but, it can't tell if you jumped to the next system, or just to the edge of the system. both look the same. ergo, your shipyard is safe.

the main restriction on yard size is how many mouths you need to keep shut. the more workers you have, the harder it is to keep them form blabbing. yes, they are shut off in a hidden base, but they will have some contact with the outside world, as will the supply ships bringing in the raw materials, beer, and lastest issues of Playboy.

so, with that in mind, I´d say you could hide a yard that could build 1000 ton ships fairly easily. hiding a yard that could make 30,000 ton light cruisers? not really.

Assume that there's fairly regular Scout and IN patrols coming through

is their a permenant IN presence in the system? SDBs, customs cutters, a recuitment office on the planet, anything? if the eyes of the Imperium are only drive by, then it would be easy to time shipments to when thier is no navy vessals in the system.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Questions to answer:

+ Are the ships you build capabel of planetary start/landing

Hiding something big on a planet is easier than hiding it in space. Natural caverns, undersea and many other hideouts offer more space than even an asteroid belt. Same for storing the ships. Also hiding traffic from/to the production site, material deliveries, personal transfer etc. are easier to hide on a planet than in space

+ If non-landing, do you have a place in-system to hide the docks (and ready ships)

Stuff in space is easier to detect and the traffic is a lot easier to detect. Unless you have active asteroid mining anyway OR advanced warning of patrols it likely will not work


+ Can you produce everything

Having to import crucial components from off-world increases the chance of agents/scouts etc. getting a hint that "something is wrong" and investigate

+ Do you have the trainers/crews

Again hiring off-world will leave a bigger trail for the enemy to follow. And foreigners are often easy to spot (language/dialect, clothing, manners etc) and will arouse suspicion

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Protectorate worlds may produce commercial vessels, but are not permitted to raise a jump-capable battle fleet, or build ships of the line.

just seen this.

can they produce SDBs for thier own system, if so that eases the diffculties greatly.

if they can leagally own a "in system" fleet, you can build "SBDs" in plain sight, then ship them out to the hidden base, and then fit the jump drives thier.

the imperium isn`t suspicious then if it finds things like you making starship weaponry, or training crews, as you have a legal, legit fleet that it knows about. it just doesn't know that your fleet is able to jump.

the other option is just to use armed merchant vessels. build traders that have lots of hardpoints but only a few weapons installed as standard, then slap the guns on when the trouble starts. design the cargo bays to be convertable into hangars. its less than ideal, but it gives you cheap tonnage to threaten another planet with.

 

[jawillroy]

I do especially like that outsystem yard plan - underground works nicely too: sounds to me like that'll constrain you to sub-Kton ships as well; though I expect even that would be hard to miss lifting off.

Regarding SDBs, the language I've put together goes like this:
"A protectorate may, at the pleasure of the Emperor, maintain a system defense fleet."
(the relevant post is here:http://festeria.blogspot.com/2011/04/in-or-out-of-festrian-empire.html)

So some will be producing their own SDBs, but there'll be some scrutiny of the ship's design, if not the ships in the yards themselves: If there's a lot of open space in the engineering section it'll raise flags. I can imagine a ship kitted out with a big SDB power plant and M-drives having them downgraded to make room for the jump drive, though, so that might work.

As for those Protectorate worlds with legit shipyards, the armed merchant path is generally the way they'll have to go I suspect - perhaps stiffening the merchantman fleet with a few more powerful vessels built on the sly.

 

[samuelvss]

I generally agree with what has been said here. In that vein, a couple of thoughts:

How long and well you prepared for the build phase would determine how good your operational security could be. How well would be determined by how good your intelligence services are. If you could syphon off semi-skilled labor (with appropriate cover stories) to gradually be trained by a much smaller cadre, then you would have a much smaller signature. Someone with some basic skills as a welder, for instance, who has never worked on a ship, leaving his small family to seek his fortune raises few eyebrows; if the shipyard's talent keep disappearing, that will be a problem. The outer system build would also allow jumping in from another system and then jumping out again. Some foreign talent would be fine in this case.

Depending how draconian one wanted to be, you could either kill off the yard crew once the work was done, or put them all in cold sleep until it was time to show yours hand.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Supposing a world wanted to build warships and not have the Imperium (or whatever interstellar government was in place IYTU) suss it out, what would you expect they'd have to do? Assume that there's fairly regular Scout and IN patrols coming through, but not an interdict or full-on blockade; also assume that any known commercial shipyards will be monitored.

How big a ship would a yard-in-hiding be able to produce? I doubt a world could get away with cobbling together ships of the tens-of-kilotons range without somebody twigging to it, but if Bargleargle 5 wanted to cobble together ships on the sly to menace the trade of Arglebargle 3, how big would be too big in your view?

You can hide anything in the upper atmosphere of a gas giant like Jupiter - and I mean anything. You just need big enough engines/m-drives to keep the shipyard in place. And of course, you have free fuel.

 

[Hemdian]

One way this could be done is for the world in question to innocently build large cargo ships. All open and above board. But the design would allow (should the need arise) for the fast attachment of weapon modules that are built and stockpiled secretly. Thus 90% of the shipbuilding does not need to be hidden. Where they could be found out is if anyone notices the power plant is much larger than needed … but the power requirements (and thus the risk of discovery) could be reduced by favouring missile weapons over beams. So think bulk cargo haulers that can be reconfigured as missile cruisers, all hidding in plain sight!

 

[jawillroy]

One way this could be done is for the world in question to innocently build large cargo ships.

Imperial Starport Authority Inspector:"I just have a few questions..."
Nervous Naval Architect: "Anything at all?"
ISAI: "The plant's pretty large for a..." (pauses as he checks spec sheet) "grain hauler. But let's set that aside for a moment. I'm a little more concerned about these..."
NNA: "Ah, the shuttle bays."
ISAI: "Ten 100 ton shuttle bays?"
NNA: "Yes. For the grain shuttles."
ISAI: "Ah. so these conduits between the grain shuttle bays and the hold are..."
NNA: "Speed loaders. To load the, ah grain. Into the grain shuttles. Speedily."
ISAI: "... moving right along. Speaking of speed, why does a grain hauler need drives rated for four standard gravities?"
NNA: "Why, think of the bakers. They need that grain."
ISAI: "Radioactive grain?"
NNA: "Sir?"
ISAI: "Radioactive grain. I'm thinking about the fiber optic backup you've got on the computer..."

 

[Dragoner]

IMO, intelligence would be more of a threat, because they would see the support infrastructure a fleet would need (fuel, personel, etc.).

 

[jawillroy]

IMO, intelligence would be more of a threat, because they would see the support infrastructure a fleet would need (fuel, personel, etc.).

I agree. Building a ship or two is one thing, but a fleet's a problem of another order.

Heck, the IN might let them build the one ship. "Admiral, I've got a positive sighting. Bargleargle's managed to complete their ship." "Yes, Richard... I've seen the specs you sent. What was it, eight hundred tons? Tell you what, Dickie. Don't do anything. Let them keep their jolly little yacht. And pass this on to Wellingham over in Diplomatic. He'll have a lovely time playing THAT card when the Barglearglers petition for full membership. After all, if they start actually shooting at anyone, then we've got carte blanche, don't we?"

 

[Dragoner]

I agree. Building a ship or two is one thing, but a fleet's a problem of another order.

Heck, the IN might let them build the one ship. "Admiral, I've got a positive sighting. Bargleargle's managed to complete their ship." "Yes, Richard... I've seen the specs you sent. What was it, eight hundred tons? Tell you what, Dickie. Don't do anything. Let them keep their jolly little yacht. And pass this on to Wellingham over in Diplomatic. He'll have a lovely time playing THAT card when the Barglearglers petition for full membership. After all, if they start actually shooting at anyone, then we've got carte blanche, don't we?"

Imperial Fleet has got size.

Though there is no accounting for bureacratic ineptitude...

Sector Sub-Chief of Staff Adjundant Subatern: " Who did what to the who?"
Agent: "Aye Sir, I outlined that this was going to happen in my report 5-Zed-62359."
"Wait what, who did you send it to? Nevermind, we'll send in a Batron for target practice."

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Find a large Asteriod (the size of eurasia) build all the factories necessary to construct ships. Mount engines on it under the guise "So we can move it about the asteriod belt(s) to reduce the time it takes raw materials to arrive." Then do so. Build a storage facility larger enough to house your Jump drive. Keep it in parts until you learn the Imperium Routine of surveilance, then assemble once the loop hole is found. Jump said factory to a secret location and arm...

That to me is hiding in plain sight...

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I do especially like that outsystem yard plan - underground works nicely too: sounds to me like that'll constrain you to sub-Kton ships as well; though I expect even that would be hard to miss lifting off.

Regarding SDBs, the language I've put together goes like this:
"A protectorate may, at the pleasure of the Emperor, maintain a system defense fleet."
(the relevant post is here:http://festeria.blogspot.com/2011/04/in-or-out-of-festrian-empire.html)

So some will be producing their own SDBs, but there'll be some scrutiny of the ship's design, if not the ships in the yards themselves: If there's a lot of open space in the engineering section it'll raise flags. I can imagine a ship kitted out with a big SDB power plant and M-drives having them downgraded to make room for the jump drive, though, so that might work.

I'd just have some convenient cargo bays sited where you'd want to install the J-drives, with a few more to be remade into fuel tanks for the jump fuel. that means you don't even have to cut holes in the side to mount the drives, as you've got hatches installed just waiting to be used, then welded shut!.

As for those Protectorate worlds with legit shipyards, the armed merchant path is generally the way they'll have to go I suspect - perhaps stiffening the merchantman fleet with a few more powerful vessels built on the sly.

for a protectorate world without a civvie shipbuilding industry, getting thier hands on warships would be extremely hard. shipbuilding is a rather complex and diffcult industry. it requires a large ammount of support and specailized manufacturing to do anything. while any TL10 world has the knowledge to build and repair starships, not all of them have the skilled workers and shipyards, with thier attendant supporting industies (ore refining and extraction, eletronics, fusion power contruction, high temprature alloying, etc, etc). that would let them build a ship.

hiding the parts for a dozen warships among the demands of a active shipbuilding industry dealing with a hundred ships a year? doable. hiding the parts when their is no other possible use for them? much, much harder.

without a normal shipbuilding industy to hide behind, the only real way to get them would be to buy forgin built hulls.

 

[shadowdragon]

Protectorate worlds may produce commercial vessels, but are not permitted to raise a jump-capable battle fleet, or build ships of the line.

If they have the infrastructure to build even a small "fleet" of warships on the sly, then they have the infrastructure to form a corporation which builds warships and military non-combat vessels to sell to the Imps or other systems. As funds and parts come in legally, "breakage" allows for ships to be built right under the nose of the Imps which disappear once they leave the system. Especially if the final paint schemes are put on somewhere else.

The Purloined Letter strikes again......:devil:

 

[CosmicGamer]

One way this could be done is for the world in question to innocently build large cargo ships.

As others have said, using a legitimate shipyard as 'cover' will probably be the most likely way to gather resources to build other ships without people knowing.

Protectorate worlds may produce commercial vessels, but are not permitted to raise a jump-capable battle fleet, or build ships of the line.

I always thought private mercenary groups and mega-corps could have some pretty capable ships to protect their interests in known pirate territories and especially between the borders. Perhaps your protectorate world produces these ships. Now the only issue is hiding the fact that a large number of ships were kept for yourself and/or resources from this yard were used to secretly build more capable war ships.

People are all about expenses and money though. How do you stay in business if your shipyard is constantly having production problems that have numerous ships built with additional materials than typically required, faulty systems that need replacing and so on to hide where the resources are actually going? How do you hide the money and paper trail? How do the citizens feel about all these huge hidden budget costs that are increasing their taxes?

There could be difficulty in acquiring certain raw materials or the numerous warship level components which would probably be more likely to be tracked in some manner even if there are non military uses.

Where do you find the numerous talented individuals that can design and test and train people for building these secret ships? Anyone with experience probably has passed intensive Imperial security and might not keep quiet when approached. Do you have universities to train people? Where do the instructors come from? Plant people in imperial shipyards for years to get experience?

This endeavor would require a lot of time and money and involve a lot of risk. What's wrong with building a legitimate 'empire' of your own with all the money, business, and power you would need to pull something like this off? I'm thinking that anyone with enough of a grudge to attempt something like this is probably already on someones radar and may have IMP spies in their organization.

Lastly, what are you going to do with these ships? How do you build a larger, more competent fleet than the Imperium has?

Imperial Fleet has got size."

Exactly. They are sure to bring in whatever resources are needed to squish you once you start causing them trouble. Or is this just for some localized conflict that the Imperium may overlook and you just want it kept secret from your enemy?

 

[jawillroy]

First, why does building warships have to be kept hidden? Unless you have nukes. I always thought private mercenary groups and mega-corps would have them to protect their interests in known pirate territories and especially between the borders.

Well, first, it's an IMTU thang, non-OTU, so YMMV.

The Imperium's power is based on technological superiority. Loyal, full-member worlds of the Imperium IMTU don't have restrictions put on their fleet building, because they're basically building warships and auxiliaries for the Imperial Navy. They can build anything their tech allows: right on up to meson-carrying battle wagons.

Protectorate worlds are under Imperial protection - but they're not really "in" yet. Some lack a unified planetary government; some are only grudgingly accept Imperial authority; some aren't ready or willing to participate in the interstellar community and play nice with the worlds around them. So rather than allow every world that can cobble together a spacefleet to harass their neighbors to do so, The Imperium IMTU keeps a lid on the big stuff in its backyard, and keeps the biggest for itself. Those protectorate worlds that can build ships can probably get away with building something as hard-hitting as a type C, or maybe even a Kinunir type ship (sans globes and particle accelerators.) But anything that packs missile bays, particle weapons or meson guns is a definite no-no.

(Meta-game, it's a rationale for keeping the High-Guard scale ships out of the way while leaving lots of frontier-y stuff within reach of the Adventurer.)

 

[jawillroy]

I always thought private mercenary groups and mega-corps could have some pretty capable ships to protect their interests in known pirate territories and especially between the borders.

IMTU, most ships of this class will be built in the commercial starports of full member worlds of the Imperium: Megacorporations operate by grace of Imperial Privilege, and mercenary outfits powerful enough to afford their own ships generally have noble patronage anyway, which tends to grease things along.

How do you stay in business if your shipyard is constantly having production problems that have numerous ships built with additional materials than typically required, faulty systems that need replacing and so on to hide where the resources are actually going? How do you hide the money and paper trail? How do the citizens feel about all these huge hidden budget costs that are increasing their taxes?

As I see it, the type of government that'll be trying to build secret fleets rather than trying to grease their way into the full graces of Imperial Prosperity probably won't care much what its population thinks...

This endeavor would require a lot of time and money and involve a lot of risk...hey are sure to bring in whatever resources are needed to squish you once you start causing them trouble. Or is this just for some localized conflict that the Imperium may overlook and you just want it kept secret from your enemy?

That's exactly it. Once it's established that A) Bargleargle is forbidden by Imperial Edict from building ships of the line, and B) that the Imperium will be monitoring to back this up, it'll be really hard for the Bargleargleans to even start one up without raising flags, and inviting an Imperial naval blockade.

 

[McPerth]

I guess the outsystem yard should work, as long as it can be supplied without raising suspictions... Most shipbuilding matherials (lantanum, etc) would be monitored in such a universe you talk about.

I also see problem in keepin the accounts so that they don't show up any discrepancies, sould a journalist uncover it (If there is any free press i the system or subsector, at least).

I'm not sure about the IR signature this outsystem shipyard would have, and how easy it would be for it to raise suspictions of any patroling ship.

And the last problem I foresee for now is what to do with the ships produced? If you're trying to build a secret fleet, unless you want to use it for undercover activities (piracy, etc), that doesn't make me much sense, as one of the uses of the fleet is as derretant (for piracy or possible enemies), and that cannot be done by a secret fleer, and if piracy begins to raise on the zone, Navy could be quite interested and take steps (more patrols, more control over matherials, more asking ships where do they go with those suplies and why didn't they arrive at destination, etc.).

This imperial interest may also raise if many 'comercial ships' apear that don't have their due registry about which yard built them...

 

[jawillroy]

Also, bear in mind that while LBB2 shipbuilding leaves a lot of gray areas between what a warship is and isn't, once you incorporate High Guard it's far more cut and dried.

While I can see some restrictions placed on non-commercial, paramilitary ships like the Ts and Cs, the real goal of the Imperium would be to make certain that, within its borders, the Imperial Navy had a monopoly on the big ship-killers: the ships that can carry those are very hard to hide. To paraphrase the old rhyme:

Whatever happens, we have got
The Meson gun, and they have not.