Grenade launchers in MT

[jec10]

How do grognards interpret the fact that in the MT Player's Manual, grenade launchers are all listed as firing with Difficulty As Indirect in the chart on page 78.

I can see this working for 4cm GLs and RAM GLs using the indirect fire rules in the PM as expanded in the errata with the scatter diagrams.

But how the heck does it work for the anti-tank GLs? I would have thought they are direct fire weapons used to engage a point target.

 

[aramis]

They're still 40mm parabolic arc weapons.

 

[jec10]

Hmm, I think you're wrong to suggest they are 40mm weapons. They aren't as some are listed as 7cm, 8cm or 9cm in the chart on page 78, and the penetration of the disposable ATGL suggests a larger than 40mm HEAT warhead.

Given their calibre I would think these are the equivalents to RPGs.

Anyway, just wanted to know if people played them as indirect fire weapons.

In which case they're not going to be much use as close range anti-tank weapons for infantry given that they will have a base task of Difficult even from ten metres away from the target vehicle.

I'll be taking a closer look at recoilless rifles, which use Rifle difficulties and so seem much more effective as anti-tank weapons at close ranges.

 

[McPerth]

They're still 40mm parabolic arc weapons.

But do the rules for indirect fire (where the main skill is Forward Observer) really represent realisitically their use (at least as AT weapons)?

Even being parabolic fire, I guess they are direct fire weapons, as the same user is the one who aims them, pointing at the target and firing it, not being told where to fire them at some map coordinates and correcting the fire, as indirect fire (mortr, howitzer, etc...) is.

Of course, I've never used, nor even directly seen, a 40 mm GL, so many of you will know better then me...

 

[Piper]

There is nothing particularly difficult about firing M203 40mm grenade launchers (presumably M79 and such are similar).

The leaf sight would be familiar to anyone with basic firearms skill. The quadrant sight is trickier, but I never saw one in use.

The weapon is low-velocity so it does lob grenades in an arc rather than the (relatively flat) trajectory of a bullet. Even so, a high degree of accuracy is possible.

Anti-tank grenade launchers (as opposed to anti-tank grenades) are generally rocket propelled (bazooka, RPG, M72 LAW, etc). To characterize these as anything other than direct fire seems ... questionable.

I had heard that recoilless rifles were superior anti-tank weapons to ATGLs. Some are still in use today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_recoilless_rifle

 

[opensent]

Unless you were schizophrenic and wanted to call in a fire mission to yourself in the middle of combat, Forward Observer seems like the wrong skill to use with grenade launchers when attacking any target to which you have line of sight.

Bullets drop, launched Grenades arc, but it's all direct fire combat if you are shooting at something you can see and draw a bead on. Indirect fire is best used when the firing unit can't see the target and is receiving targeting information from a Forward Observer.

 

[McPerth]

Anti-tank grenade launchers (as opposed to anti-tank grenades) are generally rocket propelled (bazooka, RPG, M72 LAW, etc). To characterize these as anything other than direct fire seems ... questionable.

I had heard that recoilless rifles were superior anti-tank weapons to ATGLs. Some are still in use today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_recoilless_rifle

ANd I guess RAM greades are somewhere in between ATGL and Recoiless rigles, unlike the M203/M79 you talk about, and whose grandes (if I'm well informed) are not rocket assisted, so being more like a mortar round than an AT rocket assisted grande.

Unless you were schizophrenic and wanted to call in a fire mission to yourself in the middle of combat, Forward Observer seems like the wrong skill to use with grenade launchers when attacking any target to which you have line of sight.

Bullets drop, launched Grenades arc, but it's all direct fire combat if you are shooting at something you can see and draw a bead on. Indirect fire is best used when the firing unit can't see the target and is receiving targeting information from a Forward Observer.

That's what I meant before. IMHO the skill to be used is Grenade Launcher (one of the skills in the cascade heavy Weapons). What else would this kill be for if the GLs use indirect fire and the skill to use is FO?

 

[aramis]

FO is for corrections...

 

[opensent]

Yes, GL would be the skill for direct fire grenade launcher use.

If someone with FO calls in a fire mission to someone with a single shot Grenade Launcher, the Grenadier should slap them at the next opportunity. Indirect fire with a GL would be for something like a pintle mount Mark 19 or 20-rd Auto-RAM GL where you walk incoming 40mm onto target with minor aiming action required by the Grenadier.

It's unlikely an individual soldier can muster the precision necessary to incrementally adjust a hand held GL, round after round, after considering the effort required for reloading, to make receiving targeting information from a FO worthwhile.

Of course you don't have to hit with HE, close counts, but still... Indirectly fired, Forward Observer adjusted launched grenades should be relatively rare.

If you are a FO in comms with a Grenadier, you should just tell the Grenadier to move up and shoot the target directly. Why waste both your time, just to be half as effective? FO's exist to call in firepower that wouldn't be organic to a fire-team or squad.

 

[McPerth]

FO is for corrections...

Sure, but what is the weapon skill for in indirect fire (be it field artillery, mortar, ortillery, etc...) in MT?

See that the task to hit (PM page 73) is: Difficult, FO, 1 cbt round (absolute, unskilled OK, fateful).

 

[Piper]

ANd I guess RAM greades are somewhere in between ATGL and Recoiless rigles, unlike the M203/M79 you talk about, and whose grandes (if I'm well informed) are not rocket assisted, so being more like a mortar round than an AT rocket assisted grande.

Yep. Traveller RAM grenades are like an improved version of the Energa AT rifle grenade, flatter trajectory, longer range:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nqKNEIfZx0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENERGA_anti-tank_rifle_grenade

Go Lichtenstein! And here I thought they only exported stamps.

 

[jec10]

Good to see that some think like me that this was a questionable design decision back in the day.

What do people think about an errata suggestion that the chart on page 78 be amended to indicate that (at least) ATGL have a Task Difficulty of Rifle instead of Indirect?

 

[aramis]

Good to see that some think like me that this was a questionable design decision back in the day.

What do people think about an errata suggestion that the chart on page 78 be amended to indicate that (at least) ATGL have a Task Difficulty of Rifle instead of Indirect?

Don't like it.

Don't mind using direct fire mode and the weapon's skill directly, but the to hit table should be the indirect one.

 

[opensent]

Is there an indirect fire table? Or would this just become Difficult, Grenade Launcher, 1 cbt round (absolute, unskilled OK, fateful).

 

[McPerth]

Is there an indirect fire table? Or would this just become Difficult, Grenade Launcher, 1 cbt round (absolute, unskilled OK, fateful).

Be it rifle difficulty or indirect difficulty, I don't believe it should be unskilled OK task to fire a rifle grenade. never having had one into my hands, I'd advise you to take cover if I tried to shoot one .

See that in the standard indirect fire task, it's unskilled OK for the observer, and that may be fine, as even I could tell by radio (or other commo means) to the fire that he has fired long, short or at which side, and so helping him to correct the fire, but for firing the weapon on direct fire without any knowledge of it, I guess it's another matter.

 

[jec10]

Is there an indirect fire table? Or would this just become Difficult, Grenade Launcher, 1 cbt round (absolute, unskilled OK, fateful).

Precisely, which brings us back around to the original concern with making ATGLs use this procedure to hit a tank a few metres away.

There is no "indirect fire table" in MT, just this task.

 

[Vladika]

https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog/...E-29C93432DA49-1274564010088/3-21.8/chap2.htm

Grenade Launcher

2-41. The grenadier is currently armed with the M203 40-mm grenade launcher. The M203 is a direct fire, high trajectory weapon that can be used for either point or area targets. The M203 fires several types of munitions including, HE, high explosive dual purpose (HEDP) (antipersonnel/antiarmor), riot control (CS), buckshot, and signaling. As with the rifleman, the grenadier's rate of fire is based on how quickly he can accurately acquire and engage the enemy.

 

[aramis]

https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog/...E-29C93432DA49-1274564010088/3-21.8/chap2.htm

​

High Trajectory is the key phrase - the two phrases "direct fire" and "high trajectory" make the description false - they're mutually exclusive. Either that, or there's missing punctuation.​

 

[Vladika]

High Trajectory is the key phrase - the two phrases "direct fire" and "high trajectory" make the description false - they're mutually exclusive. Either that, or there's missing punctuation.

I know better than to cite MY personal knowledge, as I'm not allowed to be an expert on anything on CotI.

I would however think that the:

Field Manual
No. 3-21.8
FM 3-21.8 (FM 7-8)

published by the

Headquarters
Department of the Army
Washington, DC, 28 March 2007

would trump your personal opinion.

But then half a million soldiers and a professional Officer Corps couldn't be right.

 

[Vladika]

I case you don't understand the military concept (I dare say the greatest end user) I refer you again to:

Field Manual
No. 3-21.8
FM 3-21.8 (FM 7-8)

published by the

Headquarters
Department of the Army
Washington, DC, 28 March 2007

2-25. The lay of a weapon is the characteristic that determines how a Soldier engages a target. A weapon's lay is either direct or indirect fire. Every weapon organic to the Infantry platoon or squad is direct fire, with the exception of company and battalion mortars. - FM 3-21.8 (FM 7-8)

Further:

Direct Fires. Those fires produced by weapons in which the operator can visually see the target. This ability to see may be enhanced by optics. It is limited to ground-to-ground fires. Given current technologies of vehicular and nonvehicular systems, the range of direct fire weapons extends to approximately 4,000 meters.

Indirect Fires. Those ground-based fires produced by weapons in which the target is beyond the line of sight of the operator or masked by terrain; in either case the operator is dependent upon a separate observer (human or electronic) to see the target. ARMY DIRECT FIRE ACCURACY: PRECISION AND ITS EFFECTS ON THE BATTLEFIELD -p6

ARMY DIRECT FIRE ACCURACY: PRECISION AND ITS EFFECTS ON THE BATTLEFIELD
MASTER OF MILITARY ART AND SCIENCE
CHRISTOPHER J. KIDD, MAJ, USA
B.S., United States Military Academy, West Point, New York, 1992
M.A., University of Denver, Denver, Colorado, 2001