Government Levels

[Timerover51]

The following quote comes from another thread, but poses a question that should likely be addressed here. The pertinent sentence is in bold.

And this is the exact debate about what is canon: According to the T5 Second Survey Vilis' UWP is A593943-A, the government change due to T5 UWP generation rules not allowing a pop 9 world to have a gov code of 3 (only 4 or higher). Because the T5 Second Survey is the official canon, the UWPs from Supplement 3, Adventure 7, The Spinward Marches Campaign, the 1116 data from The Regency Sourcebook, and any number of other sources, are now out of date.

As the Canon Page says: The categorization of an article as canon or not is usually irrelevant to gamers. Which articles are important to your game should be your decision. Canon is important to authors writing for a publisher to ensure they are within the boundaries set by previous authors.

Presently, there are two nations on this planet that have a population in excess of one billion. One is China and the other is India. If you tried to put them into a Traveller government, China would probably be a Type 3, Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy, while India, while in theory a Type 4, Representative Democracy, might be much closer to Type 8 or 9, some form of bureaucracy.
Based on China, why can a world with a population in the billions be a Type 3, Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy.

One other question with respect to government types has always bugged me, and that is where does a Monarchy fit in. Does it come under Type A or B, or Type 5, Feudal Technocracy, or maybe even Type 3, Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy. The latter two because based on the history of Earth monarchies, there has always been an underlying upper aristocratic class that they depend on for support.

 

[tjoneslo]

Presently, there are two nations on this planet that have a population in excess of one billion. One is China and the other is India. If you tried to put them into a Traveller government, China would probably be a Type 3, Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy, while India, while in theory a Type 4, Representative Democracy, might be much closer to Type 8 or 9, some form of bureaucracy.
Based on China, why can a world with a population in the billions be a Type 3, Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy.

I will point out that the restriction of pop 9 worlds not being able to be government type 3 goes back to the original publication of book 3 and simply carried forward. The forced changed to Vilis' government type makes it Traveller rules compliant. As pointed out, Rhylanor is also Pop 9 and Gov 3, and wasn't changed for the T5SS updates.

 

[whulorigan]

One other question with respect to government types has always bugged me, and that is where does a Monarchy fit in. Does it come under Type A or B, or Type 5, Feudal Technocracy, or maybe even Type 3, Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy. The latter two because based on the history of Earth monarchies, there has always been an underlying upper aristocratic class that they depend on for support.

Quoting Creativehum quoting Marc Miller in this post concerning such government types:

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]

[/FONT]"The reason, in reality, is that they are not omitted or absent; the many varied types of government which can be imagined all fit into the basic scheme given in the Traveller government tables. To understand this, it is important to remember just what purpose the government factor is meant to serve. Traveller players and characters are rarely involved with governments on the international and interplanetary level. That is to say, they do not deal with kings or presidents or heads of state; they deal with individual members of broad government mechanisms , they deal with office holders and employees whose attitudes and actions are shaped by the type of government they serve. As a result, travellers are rarely interested in the upper reaches of government; they want to know what they can expect from the governmental structure at their own level. For example, if a group of travellers were to journey across the United States from coast to coast, they would be interested in the degree of responsiveness they could expect from local governments, in how easy the local court clerk would respond to information requests, or in the degree of difficulty that could be expected in obtaining certain licenses. As they moved through Nebraska, the fact that that state has a unicameral legislature would be of little or no importance....

"By the very nature of the classification system, it is also possible for the referee to create and add additional government types for any specific campaign. Remember that the generation system is intended primarily as a prod to imagination. For example, a referee may wish to define a specific type of government more fully, and to establish a specific factor or code for it. Although it is possible to envision a military government within several of the existing codes, it is also possible to define one specifically – perhaps as the result of a coup, or as the rule of a militaristic society similar to that of Sparta. In such a case, the letter M could be allocated to military or Spartan government. Once such a note is made, the referee can then impose that government where he or she thinks it appropriate; the adventure or campaign effects follow from that point."

[/FONT]

So depending on the nature of the particular Monarchy, it could be a Type-A or Type-B (if an absolute ruler, and depending on his/her popular confidence and support), it could be Type-5 if there is a feudal structure of some sort associated with the Kingdom, it could be Type-3 if it were structured similar to Ancient Rome under the pre-Consular kings or Anglo-Saxon England, it could be Type-4 if it is a limited Constitutional Monarchy, etc.

 

[Timerover51]

I will point out that the restriction of pop 9 worlds not being able to be government type 3 goes back to the original publication of book 3 and simply carried forward. The forced changed to Vilis' government type makes it Traveller rules compliant. As pointed out, Rhylanor is also Pop 9 and Gov 3, and wasn't changed for the T5SS updates.

You are correct, since the government type is a 2D6 roll - 7 + population exponent, the lowest government type for a planet with a population exponent of 9 would be 2-7+9=4.

That does pose the question, how did Vilis then get the government type of 3?

That also poses another question regarding the very high level for religious governments, with Religious Dictatorship at Government Level 13. If you assume that you role 12 on the 2D6 role, subtract the 7 and get 5, the lowest population number to get to 13 would be 8. When you look at things historically here on Earth, religious and utopian communities (the characteristics are somewhat similar) tended to be small groups heading off to set up their own vision of life. As the groups grew, there was a pronounced tendency for them to fragment into multiple groups, which may or may not tolerate the other fragments. The larger the population, the lower the likelihood of any kind of uniform belief, making high population planets very questionable for religious dictatorships. As the game is based on the behavior of human beings, for the most part, this historical pattern would very likely apply in the future.

I would have to figure out flux to see how large the populations have to be in T5.

 

[whulorigan]

I would have to figure out flux to see how large the populations have to be in T5.

FLUX = [D6 -D6] = [2D6-7]

 

[mike wightman]

Maybe the folks at GDW used the 'referee can make stuff up' rule to alter the government codes as they saw fit at the time; maybe they decided that frontier planets get a DM that is not in the rules as written (imagine GDW using stuff not in the rules as written to detail their setting :devil); maybe it was an error.

 

[McPerth]

Maybe the folks at GDW used the 'referee can make stuff up' rule to alter the government codes as they saw fit at the time

Sure they did, at least in some instances.

A better example we have in CT:S10 Solomani Rim, where it is explained how Shululsish can have a government type 2 (participative democracy) while having population A (it specifies 21 billion inhabitants).

This is not possible wihtout altering (at least with a -3) the government dice roll.

 

[tjoneslo]

I also know that there were some history and sociology majors in the original GDW crew when the wrote the original rules. There was a series of articles in the JTAS online (now gone) expanding upon what each government type was with historical examples.

So a type 3 (Self-perpetuating Oligarchy) may well apply to small population theocracy. As I recall this really all of the government services supplied by the small group of Oligarch (legal, administrative, etc).

Whereas the higher level government levels assumed more infrastructure, ministries, government officials,etc. So China may well be closer to type 9 (Impersonal Bureaucracy). Yes there is a small group of Oligarchs who rule the country, but there is also a huge government bureaucracy to enforce and manage the country.

 

[McPerth]

[m;]Be careful in putting real world examples, as it borders politics. Please try to avoid them, but as long as they are only cited as examples (mostly for formulas about pop-gov), without any judgement, an exception will be made for this thread. Any judgement on RW governments or policies or any despective atribution of Governemnt class will be infraction worthy, no warnings.[/m;]

 

[Timerover51]

[m;]Be careful in putting real world examples, as it borders politics. Please try to avoid them, but as long as they are only cited as examples (mostly for formulas about pop-gov), without any judgement, an exception will be made for this thread. Any judgement on RW governments or policies or any despective atribution of Governemnt class will be infraction worthy, no warnings.[/m;]

I understand, McPerth. I was more looking at the fact that the use of either 2D6-7 or flux will tend to bias the government type of high population planets in one direction, towards the higher government levels, while low population planets will be biased towards the lower government levels. Looking at it historically, that is not necessarily the case. One good example is what happened when Alexander the Great died. He clearly would be viewed as a Charismatic Dictator, but when he died, his empire broke up into several pieces, effectively turning it into Government Type 7, Balkanization, with all of the Successor States fighting each other. Ancient Athens could be viewed as all over the Government Type list. The same could be said of Republican Rome.

 

[McPerth]

About the relation among pop and gov, it is said to represent the different governments likely to occur as population grows, but I also fail to see the logic under some of them.

While I agree it's unlikely that a participative democracy can work in very numerous groups, where there would be too many voices in the crowd, I also see unlikely hi pop worlds to be governed by dictatorships, be them charismatic or not. Simply to many subjects for a single person to control without the help of wither some representation of them (so making them a representative democracy), a strong bureaucracy (so making them a bureaucracy), dictator representatives (oligarchy/bureaucracy) or a strong military rule (probably government 6).

Of course, this may be altered by tech too (something not depicted in the UWP rolling), as shown in the Shululsish example in the Solomani Rim.

I see hard to imagine how a TL 1 socitey can have a unified worldwide government with the communications problems it would have, unless population is concentred on a single area.

And that leads to to the fact most governments are in fact mixed, having traits of several codes.

To give an ancient example, while Julius Caesar would probably be a nice example of a charismatic dictator, it could not have lead the Empire without its web of functionaries, that could be seen as a bureaucracy or as an oligarchy.

it could be Type-5 if there is a feudal structure of some sort associated with the Kingdom

Unless this has changed in T5, government 5 is feudal technocracy, while the feudalism as we have known it in Earth would probably fit more into an oligarchy. A government 5 would fit more into a researcher caste government, or a university, where the hierarchy is (at least teorethicaly) due to knowledge and ressearch work, and people is divided into fields of knowledge.

And never forget that what is important in Traveller game is the effect the government will have in the players. To keep with Julius Caesar example, should players go to a planet on a similar situation, it's likely that they would have to confront more the bureaucracy than the dictator itself, so they would be more likely to see it as a bureaucratic (or oligarchic) government than a charismatic dictatorship.

 

[kilemall]

About the relation among pop and gov, it is said to represent the different governments likely to occur as population grows, but I also fail to see the logic under some of them.

While I agree it's unlikely that a participative democracy can work in very numerous groups, where there would be too many voices in the crowd, I also see unlikely hi pop worlds to be governed by dictatorships, be them charismatic or not. Simply to many subjects for a single person to control without the help of wither some representation of them (so making them a representative democracy), a strong bureaucracy (so making them a bureaucracy), dictator representatives (oligarchy/bureaucracy) or a strong military rule (probably government 6).

Of course, this may be altered by tech too (something not depicted in the UWP rolling), as shown in the Shululsish example in the Solomani Rim.

I see hard to imagine how a TL 1 socitey can have a unified worldwide government with the communications problems it would have, unless population is concentred on a single area.

And that leads to to the fact most governments are in fact mixed, having traits of several codes.

To give an ancient example, while Julius Caesar would probably be a nice example of a charismatic dictator, it could not have lead the Empire without its web of functionaries, that could be seen as a bureaucracy or as an oligarchy.



Unless this has changed in T5, government 5 is feudal technocracy, while the feudalism as we have known it in Earth would probably fit more into an oligarchy. A government 5 would fit more into a researcher caste government, or a university, where the hierarchy is (at least teorethicaly) due to knowledge and ressearch work, and people is divided into fields of knowledge.

And never forget that what is important in Traveller game is the effect the government will have in the players. To keep with Julius Caesar example, should players go to a planet on a similar situation, it's likely that they would have to confront more the bureaucracy than the dictator itself, so they would be more likely to see it as a bureaucratic (or oligarchic) government than a charismatic dictatorship.

I find this argument persuasive.

Perhaps there should be two government codes- one is the upper authority that is making the laws, and the second code is the one the players experience as local interaction/enforcement style/motif.

The first could happen randomly throughout all worlds, and since T5 apparently loves that flux roll, that is done yielding any result independent of pop.

The second government code is then derived by (pop+first GC)/2 mod to 2d6-7, and the law level by the usual method on this second GC.

Reorder the government coding to whatever you think is more likely on a pop basis rather then oppressive law level generation. The randomness of that first GC will keep things from being mundane and predictable.

Anarchy rules and Religious Dictatorship at the local level on an A pop planet? Sure.

Charismatic Dictatorship at the top and Feudal Technocracy in implementation on a pop 4 planet? Yeehaw!

UWP is all about weird. In doubt, raise the weird stakes.

Pop is still in there driving law level and how things are governed, just not at the high levels.

And the discrepancies for an out of touch or power High Government, or one that strangely works, or is under stress, writes itself, including of course adventure fodder.

 

[tjoneslo]

I'm going to cite my favorite Traveller reference for this sort of thing: DGP Grand Census p24-28.

Government is divided (theoretically) into three branches. Legislative (those who make the laws), Executive (those who enforce the laws), and Judical (those who interpret the laws). Grand census makes it clear that one person (or groups) may be doing two or all three of these functions at the same time. There are in the book a number of tables to expand upon how many branches, what they look like, how many people at the head of them, and so on.

My interpretation of the link between government and population is in order to govern X number of people, you need a government size proportional to X. There can be a lot of variation but there are limitations.

I think the important thing to keep in mind is the Government types are designed to create inspiration for referees to differentiate worlds. The descriptions, by design, overlap somewhat.

Finally, discussion of what Government type 5 (Feudal Technocracy) is, is one of the TML flamewar topics.

 

[Dagrill]

When you look at things historically here on Earth, religious and utopian communities (the characteristics are somewhat similar) tended to be small groups heading off to set up their own vision of life.

Probably not the place, but I would argue they were democracy's, or oligarchies. Although some modern cults are definitely dictatorships.

I would also argue the Papacy was a religious dictatorship until excommunication became less of a threat in the age of enlightenment.

Kind Regards

David

 

[McPerth]

I would also argue the Papacy was a religious dictatorship until excommunication became less of a threat in the age of enlightenment.

In fact, central Europe (I won't give you hard borders, but more or less Catholic Europe) in middle ages are a good example of uncelar government code.

While most will put it as Balkanized, one could also argue it to be Non-Charismatic Oligarchy (feudalism) or Religious Dictatorship, with the Pope crowning the Emperor and lesser kings being crowned by its envoys (bishops/archbishops) and those opposing the Pope (be then Hussites, Cathars or whatever) facing a crusade to destory them. As you said, excomunión was a serious threat, as all vassals had legal basis to renounce to their vows if the Lord was excomunicated (another thing was if they had the power to face his wrath).

As I guess its population by then was about 7, with Traveller formulas its government would range from 2 to C, not allowing for the idea of the Religious Dictatorhip...

 

[atpollard]

In fact, central Europe (I won't give you hard borders, but moe or less Catholic Europe) in middle ages are a good example of unclear government code.

While most will put it as Balkanized, one could also argue it to be Non-Charismatic Oligarchy (feudalism) or Religious Dictatorship, with the Pope crowning the Emperor and lesser kings being crowned by its envoys (bishops/archbishops) and those opposing the Pope (be then Hussites, Cathars or whatever) facing a crusade to destroy them. As you said, excomunión was a serious threat, as all vassals had legal basis to renounce to their vows if the Lord was excommunicated (another thing was if they had the power to face his wrath).

As I guess its population by then was about 7, with Traveller formulas its government would range from 2 to C, not allowing for the idea of the Religious Dictatorship...

All good observations, but remember that the Government code is intended as a shorthand for the view from the bottom. It is not the subtle details of the highest levels, but how those highest levels impact the people at the bottom.

The example that I like to think of is old Communist Russia might Democratically elect a Stalin to be president, but when you need to get a drivers license and the clerk looses your paperwork and you raise your voice ... you will quickly realize that Democracy or not, you are living in a "Dictatorship" (as the secret police drag you off for reeducation about the efficiency of the State). The attitude of government at all levels reflects a dictatorship.

 

[Timerover51]

Probably not the place, but I would argue they were democracy's, or oligarchies. Although some modern cults are definitely dictatorships.

I would also argue the Papacy was a religious dictatorship until excommunication became less of a threat in the age of enlightenment.

Kind Regards

David

As I am presently living in an area with such a community, the leadership of such groups tended to be a bit authoritarian. Not necessarily bad, but with a limited decision making group. As time went on, that did change.

 

[Condottiere]

That would be ye Homeowners Association.

 

[kilemall]

All good observations, but remember that the Government code is intended as a shorthand for the view from the bottom. It is not the subtle details of the highest levels, but how those highest levels impact the people at the bottom.

The example that I like to think of is old Communist Russia might Democratically elect a Stalin to be president, but when you need to get a drivers license and the clerk looses your paperwork and you raise your voice ... you will quickly realize that Democracy or not, you are living in a "Dictatorship" (as the secret police drag you off for reeducation about the efficiency of the State). The attitude of government at all levels reflects a dictatorship.

Along those lines, I've suggested this in earlier threads and I think it's appropriate now- perhaps there should be two GCs- the upper level promulgates laws part, and the experience by common folk one more tied to pop and drive law level.

Juxtaposing weird combinations makes for more strange stuff, I say.

 

[Timerover51]

That would be ye Homeowners Association.

You definitely have that right. Homeowner's Association are extremely dictatorial and typically are self-perpetuating oligarchies until enough of the entrenched board members die off.