Glider pouncer predator

[Madarin Dude]

Well I have a friend who has some flying squirrels on his land and that got me to thinking that maybe this would be a decent although odd evolutionary path by having a pouncer type carnivore developing flight like a flying squirrel. Sort of a flying lynx or ocelot with a flap of skin waiting in the trees for a chance to swoop down and kill its prey.

There are advantages to this path.

1. He could be heavier and better equipped to deal with his prey than a similar sized bird.

2. Could hide in places where they prey might have difficulty looking.

3. For traveller adventurers has a great WTF factor. The Zotorian flying cats are dangerous don't go out there.

 

[Icosahedron]

I like the idea and I think it's a valid evolutionary path for a small predator, but I think there would be a size limitation to such a creature.

I could see something the size of a bat or rat using a skin flap to glide, but probably not a lynx. Anything the size of a pteranodon would have to prey on something much smaller than itself, as its 'wings' would make it too ungainly to be active on the ground. It's all about surface area and volume.
IMHO, of course.

However, now I'm picturing a Hitchcock movie called 'The Chipmunks'...

 

[veltyen]

I like the idea and I think it's a valid evolutionary path for a small predator, but I think there would be a size limitation to such a creature.

Probably, but given an ecologically diverse dense atmosphere low gravity world and then even bricks can fly.

Real world examples

Sugar Glider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Glider

Oddly enough most of the other gliders don't seem to eat "on the wing" - either because they are herbivores or the behaviour hasn't been observed.

 

[Whipsnade]

Mandarin Dude,

Nifty and nasty idea. Please write it up in either CT or GT terms then submit it to both the File Library here and Freelance Traveller. It's too good to get lost among the threads.

Veltyen's comments about denser atmospheres leading to larger versions is spot on, but I find the idea of a swarm of the little buggers much more appealing.

Just imagine one of the players scouting ahead of the main party and looking carefully for any signs of the enemy when a dozen or more cat-sized gliding carnivores drop out of the trees onto to him...

Gives me the willies!


Regards,
Bill

 

[FreeTrav]

Mandarin Dude,

Nifty and nasty idea. Please write it up in either CT or GT terms then submit it to both the File Library here and Freelance Traveller. It's too good to get lost among the threads.

Seconded; I could use a new section for Freelance Traveller, and a bestiary/zoo/wildlife conservation society/animal house - I can come up with the name later - would be a great one!

 

[Whipsnade]

Jeff,

The Imperial Ministry of Conservation springs first to mind.


Regards,
Bill


P.S. Makes me wonder if I can find that bezel-de post from back in the old TML days... Delightfully nasty creatures, imagine a tent caterpillar crossed with a python...

 

[FreeTrav]

I actually think I have at least an early cut of the bezel-de; I'd been holding it in expectation that you'd be rounding it out a bit more.

And I think that if you were to return to the TML, you'd be a valuable contributor.

 

[Madarin Dude]

Yeah this post was more or less to get everyone else s creative juices flowing I will have to look it up in Mongoose how to approach I have two versions in mind.

1. a pack hunter that tracks larger prey from the trees. Yelping chittering out to their partners the location of prey and other info sort of like a wild dog pack but bounding from tree to tree and swooping down small about the size of a housecat.

2. A larger clever more solitary omnivore type, on planets with dense atmosphere. This one will be able to cause mischief like a raccoon but be even more tiresome as his ability to glide and land makes very little out of his reach in the forest.

I guess I need to break out the books.

 

[Ran Targas]

Another great idea MD! Seeing that jungle cats spend a great deal of time in the canopy already, it's kind of surprising something similar hasn't evolved here if only to go from tree to tree.

Maybe an environment like an extensive mangrove swamp could produce one of your pouncers; here it has produced monkeys that swim and even dive underwater for what seem to be the shear enjoyment of it. Aquatic ape theory?

Anyway, if you place a particularly successful predator in the water, leaping between trees suddenly becomes even more dangerous for our little pouncer, encouraging the development of a fleshy insurance policy of sorts for when it misses its prey or just the branch it was aiming for.

 

[veltyen]

Another great idea MD! Seeing that jungle cats spend a great deal of time in the canopy already, it's kind of surprising something similar hasn't evolved here if only to go from tree to tree.

Lots of things have evolved this ability.

About 4 different mammal groups (all of which look like fluffy squirrels, colugo, sugar glider, flying squirrels etc) Frogs, Snakes, you name it and it probably has evolved gliding of some type. Snakes are all predators, so are nearly all frogs.

The flying snakes would be enough to scare the crap out of most people. Colourful ribbons floating between the trees. With fangs. And poison. The ability to flatten out their ribcage is also useful for tree climbing - so that becomes a dual use adaption.

The energy cost of gliding is quite low - to the point where climbing down a tree, crossing the ground, and climbing the next tree is a significant differential cost to the explosive launch and gliding surfaces required for this type of locomotion over a lifetime. Especially as the explosive launch is dual use (attacking strike, dodging leap, tree-to-tree leap) as is the gliding (parachuting - gliding at greater then 45% - allows falling from heights without as much damage) for any arboreal critter.

 

[Whipsnade]

I actually think I have at least an early cut of the bezel-de; I'd been holding it in expectation that you'd be rounding it out a bit more.

Jeff,

Hmmm... the post I'm remembering was rounded out. I had CT and GT stats for them, described their hunting methods and reproductive habits, had some bits about their "relationship" with the natives of Winston, talked about a scene where I used them, and even mentioned what sparked the idea for me - having a branch full of tent caterpillars fall on my head during a hike.

I surely have it somewhere around here. The trick will be finding it...

And I think that if you were to return to the TML, you'd be a valuable contributor.

The TML is dead, Jeff. There's no other way to put it. Even the mailing list format is dead.

I was subscribed until earlier this summer until I realized I hadn't posted in nearly a year and hadn't read a thread that interested me in nearly as long. There was no discussion of MgT, no discussion of T5, nothing about the Reprints, no discussion of much anything much at all. I've Gmail, so storing and reading threads isn't a problem. The dozen or so posts each week simply weren't worth slogging through to see if anything proved interesting.

A forum based TML might revive the old "List", but I think nearly everyone has moved on.

I'd love to know if there's an archive of any sort for the List however.


Regards,
Bill

 

[FreeTrav]

Jeff,

Hmmm... the post I'm remembering was rounded out. I had CT and GT stats for them, described their hunting methods and reproductive habits, had some bits about their "relationship" with the natives of Winston, talked about a scene where I used them, and even mentioned what sparked the idea for me - having a branch full of tent caterpillars fall on my head during a hike.

I surely have it somewhere around here. The trick will be finding it...

I apparently DO have this one; just not sent direct - I'd forwarded it to myself from the TML, marked 'Critter', rather than 'Bezel-De'. The one that's marked Bezel-De is in fact an earlier version. So, I've got it, and if you want, let me know an email address and I'll forward it back to you.

The TML is dead, Jeff. There's no other way to put it. Even the mailing list format is dead.

I was subscribed until earlier this summer until I realized I hadn't posted in nearly a year and hadn't read a thread that interested me in nearly as long. There was no discussion of MgT, no discussion of T5, nothing about the Reprints, no discussion of much anything much at all. I've Gmail, so storing and reading threads isn't a problem. The dozen or so posts each week simply weren't worth slogging through to see if anything proved interesting.

A forum based TML might revive the old "List", but I think nearly everyone has moved on.

I'd love to know if there's an archive of any sort for the List however.


Regards,
Bill

There IS an archive, at TravellerCentral.com (which is where the list is being hosted now, but I think that's more than a year old). See http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml - you may need to be a subscriber, but I'm not certain of that.

The list traffic is not what it was in its heyday, but there have been 200 messages this month so far, with a variety of on- and off- topics. I think that if some of the posters who could be counted on to post thoughtful articles and new material for comment were to come back, there might be an uptick in traffic and topicality.

If I can work out a technical issue, I've got a way that it can be fed to the Freelance Traveller Forums, which have their own issues - but if it'll help, ...

 

[Whipsnade]

I apparently DO have this one; just not sent direct - I'd forwarded it to myself from the TML, marked 'Critter', rather than 'Bezel-De'. The one that's marked Bezel-De is in fact an earlier version. So, I've got it, and if you want, let me know an email address and I'll forward it back to you.

Jeff,

Once again, the Hobby's Premier Unsung Hero saves the day.

When you've the time, send it to wmrcameron AT gmail DOT com

I promise to review it, rapidly revise it if necessary, and send it back to you and Freelance's new section.

The list traffic is not what it was in its heyday, but there have been 200 messages this month so far, with a variety of on- and off- topics. I think that if some of the posters who could be counted on to post thoughtful articles and new material for comment were to come back, there might be an uptick in traffic and topicality.

I'll take a peek, but I'm not promising anything.

Thank you for the archives link too.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Icosahedron]

Another great idea MD! Seeing that jungle cats spend a great deal of time in the canopy already, it's kind of surprising something similar hasn't evolved here if only to go from tree to tree.

As I said upthread, it's a matter of size. Big cats are man size and a man can't jump off a treetop and land safely by opening his coat. Creatures anything like human size would need a canopy the size of a parachute or hang-glider, and that would be too much of a burden during the non-flight portion of its life.

I still think a housecat is as big as you can go - even in a soupy atmosphere.

The flying snakes are good, though. :devil:

 

[veltyen]

As I said upthread, it's a matter of size. Big cats are man size and a man can't jump off a treetop and land safely by opening his coat. Creatures anything like human size would need a canopy the size of a parachute or hang-glider, and that would be too much of a burden during the non-flight portion of its life.

I still think a housecat is as big as you can go - even in a soupy atmosphere.

I dunno about that. Birds get up to the 10kg range while still being able to fly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marabou_Stork
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haast's_Eagle

Considering the lower costs of gliding I wouldn't be surprised by a 15 kg animal (on earth!) in this niche. That's a really really big housecat, though I have to admit still in that range.

Gliders on the other hand seem to max out at about 2 kg (Colugo's and some of the others get to this size).

The flying snakes are good, though. :devil:

Pretty too. Though that may be my prejudices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysopelea

 

[FreeTrav]

Jeff,

Once again, the Hobby's Premier Unsung Hero saves the day.

When you've the time, send it to wmrcameron AT gmail DOT com

I promise to review it, rapidly revise it if necessary, and send it back to you and Freelance's new section.

On its way, under separate cover...

I'll take a peek, but I'm not promising anything.

I can't ask for more than that.

 

[BlackBat242]

As I said upthread, it's a matter of size. Big cats are man size and a man can't jump off a treetop and land safely by opening his coat. Creatures anything like human size would need a canopy the size of a parachute or hang-glider, and that would be too much of a burden during the non-flight portion of its life.

So how does this work?
http://www.gofastsports.com/zone/wingsuit.html

 

[veltyen]

So how does this work?
http://www.gofastsports.com/zone/wingsuit.html

You don't do the landing just via the wing suit.

Well, you can, but it tends to be as successful as skydiving without a parachute.

 

[Ran Targas]

Lots of things have evolved this ability.

I aware, my friend, of the wide variety of gliding species on this fair Earth, or above it, as the case may be. There are even fish that do a pretty good job of it. Specifically, I was implying that it's strange a predator, more specifically a cat, hasn't evolved this method of locomotion. It seems to a evolutionary advantage only for those escaping predators.

I still think a housecat is as big as you can go - even in a soupy atmosphere.

Granted, the term "jungle cat" does conjure the image of tigers and jaguars (I should have been more specific), but there are plenty of small cats such as margays, ocelots, jungle cats (Felis chaus) skulking about the jungles in South America, Africa, and Southern Asia. They are small and light, often 10kg or less. As non-apex predators, they spend a large portion of their time in the canopy where bigger cats can't go and birds of prey can't reach.

 

[veltyen]

I aware, my friend, of the wide variety of gliding species on this fair Earth, or above it, as the case may be. There are even fish that do a pretty good job of it. Specifically, I was implying that it's strange a predator, more specifically a cat, hasn't evolved this method of locomotion. It seems to a evolutionary advantage only for those escaping predators.

Cat's are halfway there already. Give it a million years and see what's available then.

Cats being halfway there - they already have a parachute reflex, orientating themselves aerodynamically and flattening themselves out and fluffing themselves up to maximise drag. Mix it with some of the bird hunting/leaping adaptions and you might end up with a cat leaping out of trees to snaffle birds. Pity that those two adaptions are in very different branches of the small cat family.

Sugar Gliders I've already mentioned - they do hunt on the glide, though admitttedly in that case they're hunting moths.

Lastly I stumbled upon an example of a (perhaps) jet propelled gliding critter. The flying squid (similar to the flying fishes) who might be heading towards full jet powered flight.