Future Plans - Licensing?

[trechriron]

This series looks really spiffy!

What are the future plans for supplements for the SciFi20 system?

Is there going to be a compatibility license for publishers?

What about web freebies?

It could be fun to create a setting + adventure for SciFi20, and that could also help to spread the word on SciFi20!

 

[andycowley]

Related question; Why has FFE pulled the upcomng T20 CDROM?

Related post ... copying here on the off chance someone will answer ...

Having waited patiently for FFE to publish the T20 CDROM I was surprised today to see that any reference to the 'upcoming' CDROM has been removed from their CDROM page.... anyone any idea whats going on? Maybe the license agreement is being re-born?

 

[Pagan priest]

Which version of the d20 rules does this use? 3.0 as the original, 3.5, or the newest version, PFRPG (Pathfinder)?

 

[aramis]

Related post ... copying here on the off chance someone will answer ...

Having waited patiently for FFE to publish the T20 CDROM I was surprised today to see that any reference to the 'upcoming' CDROM has been removed from their CDROM page.... anyone any idea whats going on? Maybe the license agreement is being re-born?

Actually, it looks like Marc has removed ALL "coming soon" notices...

Which version of the d20 rules does this use? 3.0 as the original, 3.5, or the newest version, PFRPG (Pathfinder)?

3.0... but really, the only bit missing is the "how to spend your skill points" bit. Why? For the d20 license compliance. For practical purposes, T20 is stand alone.

 

[Qstor2]

There's a bunch of changes from 3.0 to 3.5 but you shouldn't have a problem using the 3.5 SRD. But things like Ambidexterity are removed in 3.5

There's been some comments on the Mongoose board calling for them to pick up the Gateway to Destiney setting. I guess we'll see in a few months..

Mike

 

[Pagan priest]

3.0... but really, the only bit missing is the "how to spend your skill points" bit. Why? For the d20 license compliance. For practical purposes, T20 is stand alone.

Alas. While I love T20 and I am pushing my current gaming group to give it a try, I am not a huge fan of 3.0 any more. PFRPG is an improvement over 3.5, even as 3.5 was an improvement over 3.0.

Oh well, I suppose that I can either run it as is or just house rule the changes from 3.0 to PF. either way, I still want to get a game going!

 

[AndreaV]

There's been some comments on the Mongoose board calling for them to pick up the Gateway to Destiney setting. I guess we'll see in a few months..

Mike

The Luriani module very deliberately 'wrapped up' some of the T20 plot lines. I think if Luriani does well (and seems to have been well recieved) they might look at more for that area of space.

 

[rich4421972]

I guess I'm either not understanding or not knowledgeable on this, but are there future plans for a d20 compatible science fiction setting that could be used and developed further by writers wishing to continue developing things in the same spirit of the Traveller20/Scifi20?

How could one use the OGL to create possible game aids that would use the d20 SRD and yet be helpful to those who enjoy games like Traveller20?

 

[aramis]

With Hunter's passing, it's unlikely that SciFi20 will go forward.
T20 was slated for a CD from FFE, but I don't know the status on that now.

 

[PFVA63]

Bummer,

Sorry to hear that. Thanks for the info, though.

Pat

 

[atpollard]

How could one use the OGL to create possible game aids that would use the d20 SRD and yet be helpful to those who enjoy games like Traveller20?

The Mongoose SRD for the Traveller game mechanics (as distinct from the Third Imperium setting) and the d20 SRD are both out there for anyone so inclined to mix and match to create a d20 sci-fi rules system or products compatible with the existing T20 rules system.

Listing compatibility and any Third Imperium concepts not covered in the SRDs open's up issues of branding copyright and registered logos that would need to be addressed with the holders of that copyright or registered Trademark ... but the SRDs are fair game.

As mentioned, the death of Hunter creates questions about who controls his property (T20), and the larger issue concerns who is your Sci-Fi 20 product's target audience (since T20 is out of print and SciFi20 will not be released).

So if you have a passion for it, then the project is available for you to make your own. You could cut and paste the SRDs to create a core mechanic to release for free and start selling supplements for it [a business model used by a popular and successful fantasy rules set].

 

[rich4421972]

Perhaps, as with d20 modern(and its series of stuff) , the ideas of the game will continue to go foreward for people who enjoy that.

 

[rich4421972]

The Mongoose SRD for the Traveller game mechanics (as distinct from the Third Imperium setting) and the d20 SRD are both out there for anyone so inclined to mix and match to create a d20 sci-fi rules system or products compatible with the existing T20 rules system.

Listing compatibility and any Third Imperium concepts not covered in the SRDs open's up issues of branding copyright and registered logos that would need to be addressed with the holders of that copyright or registered Trademark ... but the SRDs are fair game.

As mentioned, the death of Hunter creates questions about who controls his property (T20), and the larger issue concerns who is your Sci-Fi 20 product's target audience (since T20 is out of print and SciFi20 will not be released).

So if you have a passion for it, then the project is available for you to make your own. You could cut and paste the SRDs to create a core mechanic to release for free and start selling supplements for it [a business model used by a popular and successful fantasy rules set].

Thanks! That's really helpful.

 

[Avenger Enterprises]

There were already some serious issues with SF20. Notably, copyright and ownership.

I actually wrote significant parts of the T20 rules, and I edited/rewrote all of it as well as virtually all the background material, sourcebooks and the like. My work for QLI was on a first-rights basis, which meant that recycling the text from T20 into SF20 without consulting me or coming to an agreement was actually... I'll be polite and say it was rather questionable.

The short version is that much of the text in T20 was mine, and was reused without my permission and without payment in SF20. Some of it was used the first time in T20 without payment, but that's a different issue.

QLI had first rights to that text, and used them to publish T20. QLI had no rights to reuse any of my text in SF20 without coming to an arrangement with me. Any re-reuse of my text from SF20 or T20 would be a copyright violation.

Game mechanics, of course, cannot be copyrighted, and reusing the core system would not be an issue providing the text presenting those mechanics was created anew (or an arrangement made to reuse my text.)

Given that I'm still owed thousands of dollars by QLI for work I did - including work frequently credited to others - this is something of a sensitive subject. I'd very much like to reach a sensible arrangement with...anyone really... about my work, and since the subject has been brought up it needs to be stated that QLI did not own the rights to much of the text in SF20 and was in fact violating copyright when my text was used.

The rights to that text are mine. If you want it, talk to me.

 

[Avenger Enterprises]

Game mechanics, of course, cannot be copyrighted, and reusing the core system would not be an issue providing the text presenting those mechanics was created anew (or an arrangement made to reuse my text.)

To clarify that:

1. Hunter Gordon came up with those game mechanics.
2. Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted, so you are free to simply use them without consulting anyone.
3. The text describing those mechanics was created by me, on a first-rights basis, and that text remains copyright MJD, not QLI.

Thus QLI does not and did not own the rights to my text, which decribes the game mechanics, concepts etc used in T20 and SF20.

So, you can use the mechanics if you write new text, or you can talk to me about using my text (I'd like that, and it won't be hard to come to an agreement) which describes those mechanics.

What you can't do is reuse any of the T20 or SF20 text without consulting me, because the text itself belongs to me. You can, of course, write something very similar describing the same mechanics and concepts.

 

[rancke]

To clarify that:

1. Hunter Gordon came up with those game mechanics.
2. Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted, so you are free to simply use them without consulting anyone.
3. The text describing those mechanics was created by me, on a first-rights basis, and that text remains copyright MJD, not QLI.

Thus QLI does not and did not own the rights to my text, which decribes the game mechanics, concepts etc used in T20 and SF20.

So, you can use the mechanics if you write new text, or you can talk to me about using my text (I'd like that, and it won't be hard to come to an agreement) which describes those mechanics.

What you can't do is reuse any of the T20 or SF20 text without consulting me, because the text itself belongs to me. You can, of course, write something very similar describing the same mechanics and concepts.

How does the derivative nature of the text (It is a Traveller text, isn't it? Or have I misunderstood that?) affect copyright issues? Won't Marc Miller have to agree to its use too?


Hans

 

[rich4421972]

How does the derivative nature of the text (It is a Traveller text, isn't it? Or have I misunderstood that?) affect copyright issues? Won't Marc Miller have to agree to its use too?


Hans

According to the Fair use clause of the FFE license, commercial Traveller derivative works (actual rewrites of the copyrighted rulebooks) are the source of a little bit of confusion.

The situation between the Traveller's Handbook and the "books" of SciFi20 are an example of the consternation.

FFE explains this as explained in part 3 of the "Fair Use" FAQ.

(I guess you could add this to the d20 Game System License and the WotC OGL 1.0a)

www.farfuture.net/FFEFairUsePolicy2008.pdf

3. May I rewrite the game in my own words, scan parts
of the book, or create any other derivative works.

No.
Our Reasoning is this:
Far Future Enterprises does not establish standards for
fair use, and does not police any use that is made, then Far
Future Enterprises runs the risk of losing an enforceable
ownership right. I can't use your car, even if you aren't using
it. I need your permission. I can look at it, admire it, even
write about it, but I can't take it or re-paint it without
permission. Intellectual property is a special case, but the
idea is much the same.
You can write about the Traveller universe, and put it on
your web site... but you can't reproduce the rules (or
reproduce re-writes of the rules, etc.) except for about a page
(because we give permission to do that, provided you post
the proper acknowledgment). Some publishers just say "You
can't post anything." We are trying to have a kinder, gentler
approach.
We understand that you love the game and want to see it
promoted. We believe in supporting you the best way we
can. Right now, we encourage you to create your own
original works and have them follow our policies, which are
the fairest in the industry.
But you can't just go rewrite the books in your own words.

I think it is interesting that the SciFi20 documents are taken almost verbatim from the Traveller's Handbook (The T20 core rulebook). I think that, by ditching the Traveller name and all references to the specific "Traveller" T20 universe, the "author" of that book was hoping to resell parts of the book without making any new material. Again, I don't know the full situation. As I see it, the only available materials for the production of new gaming products (from any setting)are the items listed in the respective SRDs (system reference documents). In this case, that information is th the d20 3.0 SRD, but I still don't get it.

SciFi20 (Player's Handbook, Combat Manual, Design Manual and Planetology Guide) seems to be just a reprint of chapters 1-7, 8, 12 and 16 of the original core book. I don't know the full story and don't want to cause tension here.

I was a little miffed after I bought it because I already have the Traveller's Handbook and, besides some nice new art by Brian Gibson (which is very cool!) and a new page layout, there's nothing there that seems "new" but the absolutely cool pictures. I guess I would buy it for that and I am enjoying what I have.

 

[aramis]

According to the Fair use clause of the FFE license, commercial Traveller derivative works (actual rewrites of copyrighted rulebooks)
FFE explains this are explained in part 3 of the Fair Use clause. (I guess you could add this the d20 Game System License and the OGL)
www.farfuture.net/FFEFairUsePolicy2008.pdf



I think it is interesting that the SciFi20 documents are taken almost verbatim from the Traveller's Handbook (The T20 core rulebook). I think that, by ditching the Traveller name and all references to the specific "Traveller" T20 universe, the "author" of that book was hoping to resell parts of the book without making any new material. As I see it, the only available materials for the production of new gaming products (from any setting)are the items listed in the respective SRDs (system reference documents). In this case, that information is th the d20 3.0 SRD, but I still don't get it.

SciFi20 (Player's Handbook, Combat Manual, Design Manual and Planetology Guide) is just a reprint of chapters 1-7, 8, 12 and 16. I was a little miffed after I bought it because I already have the Traveller's Handbook and, besides some new art by Brian Gibson (which is very cool!), and a new page layout there's nothing there. Perhaps SciFi20 was not finished before it was released?

I'm sorry to gripe, but that was a $23 bundle product

That's also what was declared open content in the T20 release (check the declarations in the OGL in T20), and so MJD's miffedness aside, in agreeing to let it be released under an OGL, the cat got out of the bag. His recourse would be to take it out on Hunter's estate.

Open Game Content
Except as specified as Product Identity (see below and section 1e of the OGL) or Trademarks (see below and section 1f of the OGL), the following material is
considered Open Game Content under section 1d of the OGL:

• All of Chapter 2: Characters, Chapter 3: Classes, Chapter 4: Skills, Chapter 5: Feats, Chapter 6: Final Details, Chapter 7: Prior History, Chapter 8: Combat, Chapter 9: Prestige Classes, Chapter 10: Psionics, Chapter 15: Starship Encounters, and Appendix III: Friends and Enemies.
• From Chapter 11: Technology and Equipment - All weapons, armor, equipment stats and descriptions.
• From Chapter 12: Design Sequences - All final design specifications. You may use any computer, vehicle, or starship final design as OGC, but you cannot
  explain or detail how it was actually created.
• From Chapter 13: Standard Designs - Everything but the Design Specifications for each listed entry.
• From Chapter 15: Universe/Worlds Development: All final world specifications. You may use any final generated world statistics OGC, but you cannot explain
  or detail how it was actually created. The Animal Development rules and final stats are also considered OGC.
• From Chapter 18: Traveller Adventures - Rewards and Advancement and the Epic Adventure System.

Note that world gen can be (to the basic level) pulled in from the MGT SRD, as can a workable ship design system that's readily ported. (Note that T20 ship AV is HG AV, and is roughly comparable to MGT AV, so all you need is to revise the hull points and assign USP values to weapons...)

 

[Avenger Enterprises]

I wrote a lot of that text on a first-rights basis. That means QLI could use it once and had to make a new deal to use it again. They re-used it without permission.

Point is, whatever the issues about game content that apply (not my field), the actual text written by me is copyright me. And thus can't be simply re-re-used without permission.

There may be a clash with FFE's Fair Use Policy, but the rights to my text reverted to me - Marc agreed and upheld this when I discussed it with him.

 

[Avenger Enterprises]

I suspect that Open Game Content refers to the concepts and mechanics, not the specific text. I never assigned copyright to my work to QLI, and never got paid for a lot of it in fact which makes publishing some of the books at all... questionable.

Since QLI never owned the copyright to my work, they can't legally release it to others on an open basis.

As to the SF20 stuff, basically QLI had product they could no longer sell and had... parted company... with the writers what had worked with them. SF20 was basically just a quick filing-off of serial numbers to allow the same material to be resold. I was long gone at the time, but not hard to contact. QLI made no attempt to discuss use of the parts I wrote, but simply just did as they pleased. But then, they never paid me for the first use of much of what I wrote, either.