Detailed Deckplans Design Questions

[Sturn]

I have hoped to make some deckplans based on the classic versions on some large 1" hex sheets for a campaign this summer. I wanted to add some detail to the deckplans, not just rooms and corridors, but nifty sketches of fuel tanks, where the sensors are, life support, etc. I also wanted to adjust any problems with old plans while doing this.

I want to use the CT/MT plans we all recognize, only making corrections as needed, while adding greater details. 1.5m scale. I will then be using 25mm minis on my huge hand drawn 1inch scale graph paper.

I will probably be using MGT rules in this summer's campaign to try them out, since my hopes to use T5 are diminishing.

I have questions due to my desire to make the plans more detailed and to have some set conventions in place before getting out some graph paper:

Staterooms

The accepted rule seems to be 50% of the stateroom's 4 tons is for corridors, commons, ship locker, etc. Many of the old plans I look at have 6 square (3 ton) rooms. That isn't 1/2, but 1/3 for extras. Which should be used?

Low Berths

At .5 tons per low berth (one square), this seems to indicate nothing is left to draw the walking space around the berths themselves.

Engineering

The older plans I have looked at typically show MD, JD, and PPs covering more spaces then they should. After correcting this, would a 2/3 drives and 1/3 workspace (engineering stations and access points) seem appropriate?

Cargo

All tonnage to the cargo bay itself.

Fuel

All tonnage to the fuel tanks themselves. This would be placed in the external, normally grayed areas of the hull.

Bridge

All the space allocated to workstations and walking space around them. Computers and electronics could be added to the bridge tonnage (see below).

Computer

All tonnage to the computer hardware itself. Could be adjacent to the bridge with access panels. Or, add it to the bridge tonnage, dividing the computer tonnage amongst the workstations on the map.

Electronics: Sensor, jamming, and commo equipment. Would not be placed within a room, but possibly within the external grayed-out structure. No walking space. Could be added to the bridge tonnage as with the computer above.

Fuel Processors

All spaces are the actual equipment. Placed in the external structure.

Small Craft/Vehicles

Most starship construction rules, including MGT's, simply indicate an equal amount of space inside the ship as the tonnage of the small craft. This never made sense to me, since it doesn't allow for any room for walking around the docking bay or for any docking equipment that might be needed. Only allows for a tight fit. I think high guard had extra space on larger ships.

Fire Control / Turrets / Weapons

Tonnage for the weapons themselves are 100%, no walking spaces, just the weapon. The 2 spaces (1 ton) of fire control would include a workstation and chair.

Screens / Dampers

All tonnage to the equipment, placed in the external structure with maintanence access panels. On very large ships with very large screens, the same ratio as the drives could be used (2:1 ratio) and the screens placed in their own room.

Outside the Hull

Fuel scoops, streamlining fins/wings (just a cost in credits, not volume in most rules), sensor dishes, etc can decorate the outside of the plans, but have no affect on the volume of the deckplans (internal or external structure).

Other Stuff

Life Support: I would like to indicate where this is on a ship since it could come up during a game session (the terrorists attempt to sabotage the life support systems). I have opted so far to use part of the stateroom tonnage for life support equipment. Some "life support" would be included in the rooms and lounges themselves. I mean actual equipment such as oxygen tanks/generators, CO2 scrubbers, etc.

Gravitics: Another thing I want to specify, but not sure where to pull it from. Powerplant? Staterooms? By gravitics I mean the equipment that creates a gravity field for the crew.

Grav Drive: Someone help me here. Is the M-Drive (for flying in space) supposed to include a grav drive (for landing on a planet)? If so, I could simply notate a small portion of the M-drive as being gravitic equipment.

I know most of you will think this is all trivial stuff, but I love these kind of details.

 

[Golan2072]

Staterooms

The accepted rule seems to be 50% of the stateroom's 4 tons is for corridors, commons, ship locker, etc. Many of the old plans I look at have 6 square (3 ton) rooms. That isn't 1/2, but 1/3 for extras. Which should be used?

I use 1/2, with the other half contributing to life support equipment, the ship's galley/lounge, medlab, corridors and the ship's locker.

Bridge

All the space allocated to workstations and walking space around them. Computers and electronics could be added to the bridge tonnage (see below).

I usually make the actual bridge use only 50% of its listed tonnage, with the rest being landing gear, comm arrays, airlocks and the captain's office or "ready room".

Computer

All tonnage to the computer hardware itself. Could be adjacent to the bridge with access panels. Or, add it to the bridge tonnage, dividing the computer tonnage amongst the workstations on the map.

In CT, the computer subsumes the sensor equipment as well; MGT (IIRC) has them listed separately. So a CT design should have part of its computer tonnage dedicated to sensors.

Small Craft/Vehicles

Most starship construction rules, including MGT's, simply indicate an equal amount of space inside the ship as the tonnage of the small craft. This never made sense to me, since it doesn't allow for any room for walking around the docking bay or for any docking equipment that might be needed. Only allows for a tight fit. I think high guard had extra space on larger ships.

I take it that CT-LBB2 has the small craft attached to the main ship externally, like the Narcissus in Alien. Internal stowage should use the HG rules.

Grav Drive: Someone help me here. Is the M-Drive (for flying in space) supposed to include a grav drive (for landing on a planet)? If so, I could simply notate a small portion of the M-drive as being gravitic equipment.

In MT the M-Drive might even be a grav-drive itself even on the interplanetary level. Even in CT, I subsume the planetary grav-module in the M-Drive.

 

[Icosahedron]

Staterooms

The accepted rule seems to be 50% of the stateroom's 4 tons is for corridors, commons, ship locker, etc. Many of the old plans I look at have 6 square (3 ton) rooms. That isn't 1/2, but 1/3 for extras. Which should be used?

I use 1/2.

Low Berths

At .5 tons per low berth (one square), this seems to indicate nothing is left to draw the walking space around the berths themselves.

Like the cabins, the stated tonnage includes access space, so the actual freezers would be less than 1.5m square. I'd assume vertical units occupying a 'corner' of the square, and arranged in groups of 2 or 4.

Engineering

The older plans I have looked at typically show MD, JD, and PPs covering more spaces then they should. After correcting this, would a 2/3 drives and 1/3 workspace (engineering stations and access points) seem appropriate?

Works for me.

Cargo
Fuel
Bridge
Computer
Electronics
Fuel Processors

Above all work for me.

Small Craft/Vehicles

Most starship construction rules, including MGT's, simply indicate an equal amount of space inside the ship as the tonnage of the small craft. This never made sense to me, since it doesn't allow for any room for walking around the docking bay or for any docking equipment that might be needed. Only allows for a tight fit. I think high guard had extra space on larger ships.

Likewise, it's preposterous. (mounts hobby horse)

HG allowed actual tonnage for 'fitted compartments', 110% for 'large craft' and 130% for 'small craft' IIRC.
This didn't make much sense either, especially considering the specified volume of a carried vessel is its internal volume.

My current (20 yr old) houserule is 110% for fitted compartments and 130% for anything else. I haven't changed it since because of the knock on redesign effects. However, I still don't think this would realistically cover even fin-to-fin storage - what's the ratio between the inscribed and circumscribed polyhedrons for a carried vessel? More than 1:1.3 I'd guess! And that's only storage; flight decks should have MUCH more space than this IMHO!

Personally, I think to do it right, you need at least 300 - 1000% (depending on configuration) just for storage, and a working flight deck would multiply this requirement by at least a factor of five.

Consider that Striker gives a volume multiplier of x60 (ie 6000%) for aircraft - and that's just for parking space! (dismounts hobby horse).

Fire Control / Turrets / Weapons
Screens / Dampers

Above all work for me.

Outside the Hull

Fuel scoops, streamlining fins/wings (just a cost in credits, not volume in most rules), sensor dishes, etc can decorate the outside of the plans, but have no affect on the volume of the deckplans (internal or external structure).

Unless the vessel is carried by something bigger!

Other Stuff

Life Support: I would like to indicate where this is on a ship since it could come up during a game session (the terrorists attempt to sabotage the life support systems). I have opted so far to use part of the stateroom tonnage for life support equipment. Some "life support" would be included in the rooms and lounges themselves. I mean actual equipment such as oxygen tanks/generators, CO2 scrubbers, etc.

I have this gear separated between bulkheaded sections. I put it within false floor/ceiling space.

Gravitics: Another thing I want to specify, but not sure where to pull it from. Powerplant? Staterooms? By gravitics I mean the equipment that creates a gravity field for the crew.

As life support.

Grav Drive: Someone help me here. Is the M-Drive (for flying in space) supposed to include a grav drive (for landing on a planet)? If so, I could simply notate a small portion of the M-drive as being gravitic equipment.

I once figured the size of a Striker grav generator needed for various starships, and this exercise suggested to me that the majority of the M-Drive is a G-Generator. There may also be a small 'torch' reaction chamber, or it may be entirely 'reactionless'. You certainly don't want to be venting a fusion rocket within a few hundred yards of the Starport Concourse!

I know most of you will think this is all trivial stuff, but I love these kind of details.

Me too!

 

[Sturn]

Thanks for the replies you two. This is exactly what I wanted. I'm going to update my notes due to your suggestions:

Staterooms

The 6-square (3 ton) rooms were described as "spacious" in a CT scout design I looked at. The MT far trader had some staterooms of 3 tons with personal freshers, and some 2 tons without. So, if a large common fresher room is included, I will have 2 ton (4 square) staterooms. Some staterooms could be 3 ton and include a personal fresher, with the ship not having a common fresher for them.

Bridge

I will follow the above suggestion and take the landing gear from bridge tonnage. It appears the bridge will have lots of space extra after plotting down the actual workstations themselves: ship lockers, airlock near the bridge, bridge walkspaces/hallways, and the landing gear even though it doesn't feel right - just nowhere else to grab it from.

Small Craft / Vehicles

Craft attached outside the hull would make sense to only include their tonnage (well not exactly due to internal volume vs. external, but close enough for non-FFS Traveller). The only tonnage that could be missing is a grapple of some sort, but perhaps these are very small. For craft carried internally, I guess I could live with equal volume if the docking bay is a tight, custom fit for a specific type of craft only. An airlock on the craft would have to line up with an airlock on the ship. There are several examples of this in CT, so I guess I can live with it. For actual hangar bays, which could handle several types and shapes of craft of a certain tonnage, I will use at least the 130% High Guard rule, if not 200-300%. Perhaps MGT High Guard wil specify something, or T5 will arrive quicker then I think.

Gravitics

Of course gravitics should be part of the life support tonnage, thanks for opening my eyes.

 

[far-trader]

...HG allowed actual tonnage for 'fitted compartments', 110% for 'large craft' and 130% for 'small craft' IIRC.

Almost. For ships over 1000tons that was the rule. For those 1000tons and smaller it was 100% for carried craft and 110% for carried ships.

And I totally agree with your point that it's too little, if it's volume. If it's weight...

...but that's another old grump of mine :smirk:

 

[Major B]

Small Craft/Vehicles

Most starship construction rules, including MGT's, simply indicate an equal amount of space inside the ship as the tonnage of the small craft. This never made sense to me, since it doesn't allow for any room for walking around the docking bay or for any docking equipment that might be needed. Only allows for a tight fit. I think high guard had extra space on larger ships.

Sturn, you may want to use or adapt the MT rules for carried craft: 150% for vehicles, 130% for small craft, and 110% for starships and spacecraft. Also, carrying craft in bays incurs 50% wastage (so a 100 Td bay (1350 kl) can carry a craft up to 675 kl.

 

[far-trader]

For my take on the issues of deckplanning see the following thread with the caveat that the ideas may need some updating...

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=10609

 

[PFVA63]

Hi, in T4...

Hi,

In T4 for small craft it looks like a "minimal" internal hangar assumed the hangar was 200% the size of the craft carried, and a spacious hangar was 400% the size of the craft carried, based on tables in T4 Book 2 - Starships.

As for low berths and staterooms, here is a sketch of a ship I did using Gurps Traveller: Interstellar Wars rules. The GT:IW rules have some differency but mostly they are similar to other Traveller ship design rules. specifically in them standard staterooms are listed as 4 dtons and low berths as 1/2 dton per person.

Below are some drawings of a 300dton ship I did up using those rules, and in them for the Low Berths (as shown in the aft starboard corner of the lower deck) I assumed two-berth high bunks/bays about 7ft long x 3 ft wide which allows me to fit a 4ft wide ailse down the middle of the space and a small machinery console in th corner.

On the upper deck I put the passenger and crew staterooms, and other accommodations spaces. Some of the crew staterooms were 2dt in size with shared sanitation facilities with the adjacent stateroom, and others were just a little over 3dtons. The passenger spaces ranged from 2 to about 2.5 dtons, single occupancy, and all had their own sanitary facilities. I split the rest of the rest of the accommodations space not used in the staterooms into the passageways, lounges, galleys, and laundry facility. I'd have to double check my calcs, but laying out the spaces this way I think I came close to matching the the [edit] deck area count [end edit] the rules said should be allocated to accommodations based on the 4 dtons per stateroom rule (especially if you assume that the airlocks & accesses, and maybe part of the passageways etc fall into the bridge/ship systems allocation instead of accommodations).

Anyway, based on my messing around with that design, I'd suggest that 2dt per actual stateroom, maybe mixed with a couple 2.5 to 3 dt staterooms, and the rest of the space allocated to common spaces, probably isn't a bad estimate.

Anyway, just some additional thoughts I wanted to share.

Regards

PF

 

[far-trader]

Hi,

In T4 for small craft it looks like a "minimal" internal hangar assumed the hangar was 200% the size of the craft carried, and a spacious hangar was 400% the size of the craft carried, based on tables in T4 Book 2 - Starships.

Yep, one thing T4 got right I think TNE beat them to it though in FF&S1

Very nice deckplans PFVA63

 

[Supplement Four]

snip his deckplans

These look better than what we saw in the MGT preview.

 

[R_Chance]

I have hoped to make some deckplans based on the classic versions on some large 1" hex sheets for a campaign this summer. I wanted to add some detail to the deckplans, not just rooms and corridors, but nifty sketches of fuel tanks, where the sensors are, life support, etc. I also wanted to adjust any problems with old plans while doing this

I want to use the CT/MT plans we all recognize, only making corrections as needed, while adding greater details. 1.5m scale. I will then be using 25mm minis on my huge hand drawn 1inch scale graph paper.

I use a 1/2" grid and 15 mm miniatures / counters. Not as pretty as a larger layout but it puts more plan on the table at 3 meters per inch. I prefer my own deckplans, with appropriate corrections / modifications too.

RE rules:

Nice thing about using an older set of rules (MT for me) - no waiting or questions.

RE Staterooms

I agree with pretty much everybody else. 2 tons per stateroom, luxury suites and so on excepted. The extra tonnage for common areas, corridors etc.

RE Low Berths

I "stack" my low berths 4 high covering 2 squares -- rather like the pull out drawer / slab setup in a morgue (there's a nice picture for those of you who go low...) with a bit of room for monitoring / life support machinery on the end. This gives some space (1/2 of the alloted tonnage) for corridor, recovery areas etc.

RE Engineering

I like cramped access areas / spaces for the grease monkeys, with a less cramped engineering control area for monitoring etc.

RE Cargo

Skim off a little for cargo controls, a small office for the cargo / load master etc. I've always assumed a bit of space for these with the idea that the cargo containers are designed to fit inside the stated volume and be manipulated. In short you're not paying to transport exactly 13.5 meters cubed of cargo per ton paid, but for the use of the shipboard space required to transport a cargo container (whose actual volume is a bit less).

RE Fuel

I attach the fuel scoops, purification plants etc. to the fuel tanks.

RE Bridge / Computer / Electronics

I always figure one primary computer workstation into my computer tonnage. IMTU the computer operator / programmer has to be able to have access to the computer for programming purposes, routine software maintenance, setting up programs for use by others, and generally just pushing buttons

Electronics equipment is distributed, but sensors, communication equipment etc. are with the bridge / auxiliary bridge.

RE Small Craft/Vehicles

The 130% , 110% rule makes more sense... hangers can always be located next to cargo space, armoury bays, etc. as well, giving a bit more room.

RE Fire Control / Turrets / Weapons

Ditto for me. I do like to have a screen generator with an operators position though. Generally located deep within the ship, near engineering.

RE Life Support / Gravitics

I put life support equipment in engineering. The gravitics are deck plates, built into the habitable areas of the ship and the cargo areas (to help manipulate / secure cargo).

RE Grav Drive

Grav drive = MD in MT. Thruster plates include gravitic technology I believe.

RE Gearhead declaration

It's the fun stuff! You've given me a bad case of deck plan fever again. Time to drag out the graph paper again...

 

[far-trader]

...RE Gearhead declaration

It's the fun stuff! You've given me a bad case of deck plan fever again. Time to drag out the graph paper again...

Indeed, and this thread and others, and sentiments like that, have had me pondering resurrecting the CotI Design Challenge lately

 

[R_Chance]

Indeed, and this thread and others, and sentiments like that, have had me pondering resurrecting the CotI Design Challenge lately

Sounds fun.

 

[ranger2261]

Hey all.
a post your own deckplan thread
is a great way to share ideas.

 

[atpollard]

Indeed, and this thread and others, and sentiments like that, have had me pondering resurrecting the CotI Design Challenge lately

What about the Type S? ... :devil: ...

 

[ranger2261]

OMG,
Atpollard read my mind.

 

[far-trader]

OMG,
Atpollard read my mind.

He's Zhodani :smirk:

 

[JAFARR]

From real life on board 2 USN carriers I would conclude that there are many things lumped together in all the rule sets. You have to remember reality vs. playability. You get to nit-picky on realism, and you don't have a playable result. (Which is why I rather use High Guard vs. MT for ship design rules.) I think it is safe to assume that all work/control stations and access ways are included in the volumes given. Having worked in the engineering spaces of the USS Enterprise and the USS Nimitz I can definitively state that much of the equipment is rounded and anything but rectangular with easily outlined shapes. Remember we are talking of tonnage as a volume, so I assume that it is the volume needed to contain the equipment and will have empty spaces around sections of the equipment where a control panel or operating station can be located within that tonnage.

As far as gunners go, with the tech levels we are talking about, there is no reason the controls cannot be remote from the weapons themselves. It is not like the WWII bombers where the gunners could actually use the Mark I eyeball on the target. Actual control of the weapons will be based on sensor input anyway. Same goes for the bridge. Put it in the most central location of the ship where the exterior spaces will help shield it from damage.

Bridge is like engineering spaces as far as work stations go. In fact Most of the bridge will be the work stations and access to them.

As far as staterooms go, the larger the ship, the more free space can be accumulated for other common areas out of the staterooms. Most of the life support equipment, internal communication gear, power lines, etc. will be contained within the walls and decks. A small % of all components goes to make these areas so don't worry about them. In the case of your life support being sabotaged, what they would attack would actually be a control panel, or some recharge connection or something like that, so make the point of attack in any location that seems reasonable to you. As these systems tend to be de-centralized, It is very hard to kill the entire system anyway.

Fuel tankage will be of multiple, linked, but isolate-able compartments so that damage to one tank will not result in loss of all fuel. Fuel tankage works well for streamlining the exterior of the other ship components. Fuel scoops, and refueling connections are part of the tankage while fuel purifers add to the actual tank volume. That is they are built into the fuel tanks, but you must add in the volume required for that size purification plant.

As the idea is to have fun, put in what you feel is necessary as long as the details don't get out of hand. At that point, it no longer is fun and becomes a chore.

 

[BlackBat242]

I usually make the actual bridge use only 50% of its listed tonnage, with the rest being landing gear, comm arrays, airlocks and the captain's office or "ready room".


In CT, the computer subsumes the sensor equipment as well; MGT (IIRC) has them listed separately. So a CT design should have part of its computer tonnage dedicated to sensors.

Actually, in the CT HG2 book, it specifically states that:

"Every ship requires a bridge for control of the drives and electronics and for navigation."

"The bridge contains all necessary equipment for the control of the ship with the exception of the computer."

Nowhere in the description of computers does it ever mention sensors, or any other electronics.


Seems pretty clear that sensors (required for navigation and control of the ship) are part of the bridge tonnage.

 

[PFVA63]

Some Ocean Going Ship Data

Hi,

Alot of times when trying to lay out a deck plan, I'll try and see what is typical for modern ocean going ships for reference. As such, here's some data on typical area and volume of spaces on seagoing merchant ships from the book "Practical Ship Design" that might be of assistance in trying to figure out sizing spaces and/or how to allocate the space available.

Deck Areas (not including sanitary spaces)

Passenger Spaces
1976 era
Deluxe Suite for 2 persons - 16 sq m
1st class single - 9 sq m
1st class twin - 13 sq m
Tourist Twin - 6 sq m
Tourist Triple - 9 sq m
Tourist Quadruple - 12 sq m

1981 era
Deluxe Suite with Sanitary Spaces - 24.7 sq m
Standard Cabin with Sanitary Spaces - 14.6 sq m

1992 era
Deluxe Suite with Sanitary Spaces - 42 sq m
Standard Cabin with Sanitary Spaces - 18 sq m

Passages, Foyers, Entrances, & Stairs for Passenger Spaces
45% of the above spaces

Passenger Dining Saloons - per seat
1976 era
1st class 1.5 sq m for large numbers or 2.3 sq m for small numbers
Tourist class 1.3 sq m for large numbers or 1.6 sq m for small numbers

More Modern Cruise Liners
1.44 to 1.66 sq m

Officer & Crew Spaces
Captain & Officers Staterooms
Captain & Cheif Engineer - 30 sq m + 3 to 4 sq m for Sanitary Spaces
Cheif Officer, 2nd Engineer, or Cheif Purser - 14 sq m + 3 sq m for Sanitary Spaces
Other Officers - 8.5 sq m + 3 sq m for Sanitary Spaces

Offices
about 7.5 sq m each

Passages, etc for Crew Officer Spaces
about 40% of the Captain & Officers Staterooms and Office Spaces

Officers Dining Spaces
about 1.3 sq m per seat

Officers Lounge
about 1.7 sq m per seat (assuming seating for 60% of all officers)

Petty Officer & Crew Cabins
Single Berths (typ for Senior Petty Officers) - 7 sq m
Two Berth Cabins (Jr Petty Officers & Ratings) - 6.5 sq m
Four Berth Cabins - 10.5 sq m

Petty Officer & Crew Passageways etc
about 35% of Petty Officer & Crew Cabins

Mess Rooms for Petty Officers and Ratings
1.1 sq m (with seating for 100%)
Rec Room - 1.2 sq m (with seating for 50%)

Other Spaces
Wheelhouse - 30 sq m
Chartroom - 15 sq m
Radio Room - 8 sq m + 2.5 sq m per Radio Officer

Galley space per person
0.65 sq m for small crews
0.55 sq m for crews of 1000 or more

Laundry - 50 sq m + 0.07 sq m per person

Air Conditioning Fan Rooms (Life Support type spaces)
2.5% of total ventilated volume

Refrigerated Stores
0.04 cubic meters per person per day (divided by 0.72 to get total gross volume requirements)

General Stores
140 cubic meters + 0.1 cubic meter per person per day

Typical Deck Heights
2.45 to 2.50 m on larger ships
2.60 m on the deck where the main vent trunks and electical cabling is run
2.90 m in way of main public rooms
2.75 m in way of the Galley

Regards

PF