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Death Practices

Whipsnade

SOC-14 5K
Gents,

An off-hand comment by Liam Devlin in another thread sparked my interest in ths topic. Rather than hijack that thread, I've started a new one here.

In regard to Virasa, the primary religion on Dulinor's homeworld of Dlan, Mr. Devlin wrote in that other thread:


Our ATU Virasin Faith followed much of the MT-TU tenets, but like yours, allowed travel & evangelizing.
We changed the tenet to "die on Dlan" to "To be buried on Dlan."
Liam,

Your "interred on Dlan" would create a very interesting cargo trade throughout the region!

During the brief excitment surrounding the JTAS "Antares Supernova" setting, which was sadly abandoned almost as quickly as it arose, I toyed around with a few ideas for background description/adventure seeds. One idea riffed off the beliefs of the Church of Stellar Divinity.

It seems Antares is home to one of that faith's 'mother churchs'. The SD 'patriarch' or 'pope' calls the planet home and, as a theocracy, Antares is ruled by the SD. One of the tenets of the SD faith has true believers rewarded in the afterlife by becoming 'one with the gods'. When your remember that stars are gods in the SD faith, certain burial customs come to mind. With Antares among the most visible stars in the sector, if not the Imperium, and the home to the mother church, it is only natural that members of the Stellar Divinty faith would wish to be interred in the Antares system.

Believers who are wealthy enough would arrange to have their remains or part of their remains shipped to Antares. Just how wealthy they are would determine whether a corpse is shipped, a package of ashes is shipped, or a few grams of ashes sent along. When you factor in tens of billions of believers across hundreds of worlds, the Ash Trade to Antares will be substantial.

Of course the SD in Antares has to handle this constant stream of remains. The planet itself would be dotted with thousands of ossuaries and hecatombs. After centuries, I'd suspect the church to begin restricting interment on Antares itself and beging interring remains elsewhere in the system. For example; once suitably sanctified, a honeycombed planetoid could hold the remains and partial remains of millions. Such a site would require 'caretakers' if only in a religious sense, I found the idea of a vacc-suited monestary quite intriguing.

I jotted down a several adventure seeds with all this. The Ash Trade would have large socio-economic issues. Shipping costs are high, even for a few gram 'sample' from a believer's remains. Churches distant from Antares would club together to ship remains, negotiating price breaks with transport firms. Believers would pay into 'insurance' policies for decades to cover the cost. SD theocracies would try and subsidize shipping costs leading to all sorts of political problems. There could even be lotteries that selected which remains were shipped from distant worlds to Antares for interment. Because interment on Antares itself would be restricted, all sort of shenanigans would take place when sufficiently rich, influential, and/or crazy relatives tried to ensure that Great-uncle Gummo ended up on Antares and not in some 'less stylish' planetoid.

As for the Antares supernova itself, which will happen sooner or later, the SD has decidely odd views about it. According to SD doctrine, the supernova is a good thing. That suggested a whole raft of other adventure seeds. Imagine that the supernova occurs, what sort of actions will believers beyond Antares then take in order to become 'one with the god'?

cure evil laughter...


Have fun,
Bill
 
This is excellent.

I haven't gotten around to detailing religions IMTU yet except in the broadest brush-strokes, but this is definitely *YOINKED* for later inclusion.
 
Devious & Deviouser Mr Cameron!
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Now with our Virasin Model, this had a spiralling trade effect (no punny intentional tribute to the MT-era "Hurricane-Galactic Swirlie of the Rebellion Faction Fleet symbol for the Federation of Ilelish, or the picturesque toilet bowl action of same geometry--Honest! Before the Synod of the 1157th Khanu, I swear!) in traffic of the holy dead in towards Dlan itself. ;)

What I never did, in hind-sight, or macro-scale trade for the Ilelish sector or Domain of same name, was figure out how large the impact was, what table to put the commodity "Virasin Dead folks to be buried" under. :(

I suppose, as a special refrigerated cargo--I again hadn't figured like the SD church of Antares, whether or not cremation was an option or not. Hats off Bill, this is brilliant deduction! :D
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Devious & Deviouser Mr Cameron!
Mr. Delin,

Thank you. Devious and odd are among the few things I do well.

I suppose, as a special refrigerated cargo--I again hadn't figured like the SD church of Antares, whether or not cremation was an option or not.
Whether or not cremation was an option in the SD church or not, I think that it would quickly become accepted once the desire among the laity to be interred somewhere in the Antares system grew in strength. More of the faithful could afford to ship a few kilos of ashes as opposed to ~70 kilos of cadaver. Religions, like any other human activity, must answer to social forces.

Following that line of reasoning, shipping small portions of a believer's cremated remains will eventually become a practice. A few grams can be shipped for far cheaper than even a few kilos. Look at the memorial plaques in various 'desirable' churches. While room in that church's graveyard may be limited or nonexistent, a plaque or reliquary allows people to be 'virtually' interred in the 'desirable' location.

Imagine... a planetoid in the Antares system... SD 'monks' moving down endless passageways carved out of the rock... the walls filled with niches holding ten of millions of small, ash-filled vials... the vials showing bewildering variety, a simple metal tube here, a delicate filigree of crystal there, each marked with a name and short inscription... A SD shuttle craft arriving with a 50dTon cargo of more vials to be lovingly stored...

Sound weird enough? ;)

Also, the ways for this 'Ash Trade' to be manipulated and/or corrupted for financial, political, or religious gain are numerous!


Have fun,
Bill
 
Needs a trade table item.

"1000 devout posthumous pilgrims per dTon crate, fellow followers expected to cut a large discount"

Cremation ashes (2-4 kg per person) repurified with a slight binding agent so that the mass drops and no seperate container is required. The whole lot stored like books in a "conse-crate". Homeworld, Name, ID printed on the spine of each cremain.
 
Velteyn good idea!

question 1--would they fall under a "special" table?

question 2--Small lots (1-2d6) or Big lots (3-5d6)?
 
Bill--

In this 'Ash' Trade plot device, I see there is also plenty of room for mischief: The sheer funding of such creates a bureaucracy within the Antarean SD Church; the lobbying power applied to acquire the subsidizing of 'final passage' fees for the 'freight'; the indignation of the distant flock if the late believer's remains wind up elsewhere (say, hijacking, or worse--a misjump!). :eek: ;)
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Just to think of scandals from discovering a certain lot of vials from a very well-heeled believers not being found where they'd been intended to be placed within the system!
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One can have wayyyyyyy too much fun with this game, ya know, just contemplating the evil possibilities.. ;)
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

Sound weird enough? ;)

Also, the ways for this 'Ash Trade' to be manipulated and/or corrupted for financial, political, or religious gain are numerous!

I can easily see one noble trying to embarrass another politically by stealing ashes in transit, then publicly selling them back to the family. Deliciously evil...

While on the USS Miller (FF-1091), we made a few trips with corpses onboard for servicemen's burial at sea. To keep the corpses "fresh", they were stored in an emptied out freezer on the mess deck. (Yes, the jokes were sick during meals when we did that.) So I pose this question based on that experience: Would the Imperial military conduct similar "Burial in Space" details if a specified orbit around a world was available? Or is that idea too far-fetched?
 
Odd thought.
Let's say that there was some intrigue or theft or even a con job done over an important person's ashes. If all that is left is ash, then how can you find or confirm the identity of those ashes? The only thing I can figure out is DNA, but the cremation process would destroy that molecule pretty thoroughly, right?
 
Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
This is excellent.

I haven't gotten around to detailing religions IMTU yet except in the broadest brush-strokes, but this is definitely *YOINKED* for later inclusion.
Likewise! Thanks for this, Bill, as I am starting to develop something in another part of this sector.

Also, is the JTAS info you are referring to available online? My Google-fu isn't working well today...
 
Regarding Virasa, I like the idea of shipping almost dead people in cold sleep so that when they "thaw" on Dlan they reach their goal - so they can travel, but make arrangements to ship therir dying body home.
 
A slightly warped idea on the navy theme, apologies for anyone offended, is setting the remains as structural components on specialist capital vessels. Still a working vessel, just with seals, panels, small shrines, made of the bones and ashes of the dead. Rows of commemoration plaques in the corridors.

It smacks of 40K having small tombs full of career navy remains on a ship, like a floating ossuary for those gone in service. For certain religions it would certainly make sense, and from a storytelling point of view having tombships around can always be handy.


On the other hand it could be a common option for serving crewman to be buried on their ship. This would mean that all ships would have a small graveyard on board. From that culture, a free trader you obtained may have a row of urns on the bridge, which is the former crew.
 
Veltyen, sounds like something the Aslan might use in their "Hall of Heroes" that they have on most of their ships. SOME human customs might allow/encourage this type of thing, but probably not most.

Regarding the Antares religion, since they want to become "One with the Gods(Stars)" would dropping their ashes into Antares be an option to storing them? I haven't read any info on this religion in Traveller, but I was just speculating. Maybe there is a sect within the Antares religion that says sun-diving is the way to become do it, while the main branch of the religion says no, you must wait until the Day of Enlightenment (Supernova). Religious schizms are also good adventure seeds, although they often get very bloody...
 
Gents,

Thank you all for the kudos but, as usual, my skimpy ideas have been fleshed out by those who respond to them!


Liam - As you suggested, the 'Ash Trade' can lead to plenty of mischief. I toyed with a scam involving non-existent 'shipping insurance'. People and SD congregations would be sold worthless policies that supposedly covered the cost of sending their remains to Antares. Then there are ash shipping funds; specific tithes by believers to SD organizations for the express purpose covering that cost. All that money just sitting there... ;)

Jeff - The IN handling the burial/interment/disposal of former members in some sort of ceremony? I see nothing odd about that at all. (IIRC, there is a backlog of remains on both coasts for the USN to honor.) Of course even getting on the IN's list would involve political 'wire pulling'. Then there's the possibility of certain family members not wanting the dear departed honored in such a manner, family member who may feel strongly enough to hire people to prevent such a thing from happening?

As for identifying cremated remains, at our current TL it is impossible. Not just burned remains mind you, but the fully "cremated at +1000 degF for hours" stuff. I don't know about TL15 however but I don't see how it could be done. (Sadly, I know this thanks to a local court case involving a crematorium that ran out of both storage space and time. There's also the recent case of the funeral home in Georgia, morbid and macabre but also fulls of adventure seeds.)

Jim - The discussion at JTAS was on the boards there and was, AFAIK, so long ago, ~3 years, that the threads no longer exist.

Paul Drye was the driving force naturally. He'd had an interest in the sector already and was working on it with an eye towards a sector book. I'm sure most of you have read his work for JTAS and SJGames. Malenfant (Dr. Constantine Thomas) also helped tremendously with the astrophysics end of things. I don't exactly remember how the subject came up, but we began mulling over what an Antares supernova would actually be like. (DGP had suggested using one to end the Rebellion) JTAS members began chipping in ideas and the topic exploded, hundreds of posts in days IIRC.

I stuck my oar in too. Jon Zeigler had written an earlier JTAS editorial asking for ideas to increase subscriptions. One suggestion had been to have theme issues. I blathered something about the supernova being an ideal theme. If a 'boom bible' (i.e. setting materials) could be written, folks could use it to submit articles and adventures in that setting.

Malenfant worked out how to have a shirt-sleeve world like Antares in the Antares system; it orbits a brown dwarf which orbits the star, and provided info on what a supernova actually does; pulses of this and that, timing, etc. Paul began putting things together with the rest of us kibbitzing. AFAIK, Paul eventually submitted a rough draft of the 'boom bible' and the idea then died.

I'd scribbled some notes for the setting. The SD church is a big force in Paul Drye's version of the Antares sector so it figured in my few ideas. One idea involved the 'Ash Trade'. Another involved something I called the 'Ghoul Patrol'.

Antares is going to explode sooner or later. A lot of shipping arrives at Antares daily too, just look at the trade maps. Add in Antares scout and naval bases, plus it being the HQ for the SD, and you'll see that getting news of the supernova out as quickly as possible is something that is very desirable.

As soon as the neutrino pulse occurs, a gaggle of couriers staged way out in the system would jump away with the news. You're not going to be able to plan on evacuating a single soul as the nova is too fast, but you can send a warning to keep people away. A week's worth of inbound traffic is dead, but the couriers' message can stop vessels from jumping into Antares after that.

I thought there'd be three separate Ghoul Patrols; a combined civilian/IISS one, an IN one, and a SD one. The civilain/IISS/IN patrols would spread the warning. The SD patrol would spread the good news!


Have fun,
Bill
 
Argh - that's what I get for returning to the Traveller party late...

Thanks for that post, Bill! Very informative. Do you know if that "bible" is anywhere around?
 
Originally posted by Jim Fetters:
Thanks for that post, Bill! Very informative. Do you know if that "bible" is anywhere around?
Jim,

Sorry, it isn't available anywhere to my knowledge. I don't even know how extensive or complete it was. The only people I know who ever saw it would Paul Drye, the author, and whoever he submitted it to at JTAS.

Malenfant may be able to remember some of the work he did; coming up with a semi-plausible way for the canonical Antares UWP to work and a timeline of the supernova's effects.


Have fun,
Bill

P.S. Paul's website is: www.drye.ca

P.P.S. I think I hijacked my own thread!
 
Nope, we never posted it. Got a fair way in actually figuring out the timeline (which was painful. You actually get lightspeed delays from the edge of the star to the part that's closest to the planet).

But we kinda gave up I think because if Antares goes supernova then every habitable world at least 100 lightyears from Antares (and that is probably a very significant understatment of distance) is going to be completely sterilised when the radiation from the supernova arrives there. If it blew it'd ultimately take most of the imperium and Vargr extents with it.

Supernovae are bad, mmkay? ;)
 
Antares supernova seems like a good idea for an alternative TU timeline. Huge exodus from the area, people who stayed in-area (in deep bunkers, orbital stations hiding behind stars, etc?), jockeying to reclaim the area once the worst has passed, billions of misplaced sophonts looking to colonize other areas, or perhaps continue to coreward as a giant colonizing fleet...

I hope it's okay if I take this cool Stellar Divinity idea and run with it a little....

I imagine there are huge skyscraper mausoleums on Antares that could be interesting adventure locations. Premium plots are probably not bought, but rather rented by descendents. If you hit hard times then g. g. granpa might have to be moved from Eternity Tower to one of those ugly concrete mega-mausoleums, and you don't want that.

Not everyone might be pleased about the coming supernova. No doubt many of the devout are convinced it will come in year X, or some year whose digits add up to Y, etc. So across all sects of SD there's a millenial-type anxiety and a sense of having to get plans into action pronto.

Having paid generations of rent on these buildings, made countless pilgrimages to see the family remains, worshipped at the grave of their sect's greater and lesser prophets... lots of people won't think it's a good thing to see the whole planet turn to ash, even if such a view is maybe a little bit heretical. And ironically the party with the most financial interest in keeping Antares around is the church itself. Seems like a situation ripe for a schism.

Hence the recent building of the necro-ships, huge remodelled bulk freighters. These are being built by the Forever Sect who believe in all of the burial rituals except for the caveat about it being on a specific planet, interpreting the faith as the idea that all remains are supposed to together in one place "under the same sun" (some Foreverists interpret that to mean the Imperium, some merely point out that a supernova makes a poor 'sun'; so orthodoxy has the same problem). The Foreverists plan on building a single mega-necro-ship eventually that tours the Imperium and becomes the center of a new faith after the supernova.

Some Foreverists also believe other filthy things such as flat fees for internment. The most devout practice a peculiar form of evangelism; they steal ash samples from the remains of all worshippers (not just fellow Foreverists) (or all sophonts?), sometimes aboard the ash-freighters or in raids on the tombs of Antares itself (!), events much publicized and vilified by the main church. (Tamper-proof remains containers can be had at a nominal addition to the yearly fee.) The Foreverists insist they only take a sample of the ashes, but the church maintains they steal entire remains denying them burial on Antares, an act with disgusting spiritual implications on top of the simple crime of desecrating a tomb.

Then there are the recently converted Foreverists who need someone bold to go to Antares and collect some remains of their ancestors from various grave sites of varying security (long list produced...). And the other branch of the family, devout Orthodox, might not like this at all.

In relative secret however some of the Orthodox, those who hate the Foreverists but do think there has to be some kind of setup that survives the supernova -- in contrast to some of the most hard-line Orthodox who think that at the moment of the supernova all worshippers, living and dead, will burst into purifying flame, become gods, and thus end the church -- the moderate Orthdox have caused the church to commission their own necro-ship.

Their current plan for this ship is to secretly load it up with ash samples from as many of the devout as they can manage (perhaps even going so far as to pose as Foreverists and hire some bold outsiders to gather some remains from the Antares system -- and, oh yeah, gather them all, and don't be afraid to trash the place!) Then after the supernova the necroship can move in to circle the post-supernova star, thus preserving the ancient rites, the church, and the entire faith.

Of course then there's the fringe fundamentalist sect which has been jettisoning remains directly into the star Antares since as soon as the TL allowed. This sect is rapidly gaining members and power because it's hard to dispute that they were doing it right all along but were charging far less for it. So that tends to give them a spiritual high ground. And at their fringe is the large, quiet, dispersed 'lapsed' group, who believe that any old star will do, and who try to stay away from the crazy politics of Antares.
 
Originally posted by veltyen:
A slightly warped idea on the navy theme, apologies for anyone offended, is setting the remains as structural components on specialist capital vessels. Still a working vessel, just with seals, panels, small shrines, made of the bones and ashes of the dead. Rows of commemoration plaques in the corridors.

It smacks of 40K having small tombs full of career navy remains on a ship, like a floating ossuary for those gone in service. For certain religions it would certainly make sense, and from a storytelling point of view having tombships around can always be handy.


On the other hand it could be a common option for serving crewman to be buried on their ship. This would mean that all ships would have a small graveyard on board. From that culture, a free trader you obtained may have a row of urns on the bridge, which is the former crew.
This idea really sank in with me, because I just woke up and had dreamed about it.

A training ship, with corridors and interior shapes similar to a modern Navy ship - smooth walls festooned with pipes and the occassional valve mostly painted grey. The cadets and recruits are marching from deck to deck in small groups led by a Senior Petty Officer. One ducks through a hatch into a corridor with the recruits following. The Petty Officer slaps his hand on the hatch and in a Hollywood Russian accent bellows, "See this hatch? See this plaque? This hatch was made with the ashes of Imperial Navy Spacers who died in the Fourth Frontier War protecting your families in a war that the Capital acknowledged too late! So when vacuum is on the other side trying to kill you, know that this hatch will protect you because Able Spacehand Tomas Richarson, Able Spacehand Lisa Womack, and Able Spacehand Marta Lee protected your families in the past when nobody knew there was a danger!"

Then I woke up.
 
Originally posted by veltyen:
A slightly warped idea on the navy theme, apologies for anyone offended, is setting the remains as structural components on specialist capital vessels. Still a working vessel, just with seals, panels, small shrines, made of the bones and ashes of the dead. Rows of commemoration plaques in the corridors.
Veltyen,

It's macabre, but not unknown. There are the many ossuaries across Europe in which bones are used as decorations and are arranged in various shapes.

Most date from the Middle Ages and involve the usual wacky monks but, when Napoleon was busily rebuilding Paris so his artillery could butcher mobs more easily, many ancient churchyards were 'bulldozed' and their contents moved to the catacombs under the city. You can tour them (I have) and visit hundreds of neatly marked vaults with thousands and thousands of skulls, tibias, ribs, and other skeletal bits carefully stacked like cordwood.

The Kinunir-class deckplans in A1:Kinunir have a 'chapel' marked on them. It's an ecumencial space and I could easily see shrines and plaques to 'fallen' crew members in that compartment.


Have fun,
Bill
 
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