Darrian and the Kimashargur.

[JeffreyAllanBeeler]

Does anyone else have a problem with the Daryen being uplifted by Turks? It means that the Spinward Marches were twice hit by an influx of Solomani who came from a long ways a way. Isn't more likely they were uplifted by a Kimashargur group coming from Vland or even the Zira Sirka border a much closer place earlier in time giving them more time to travel a lesser distance?

 

[mike wightman]

Nope.

I actually think credit is/was due to GDW for stepping outside the US/EU comfort zone. I would like to know more of AD2050-2100+ Chinese and Indian, not to mention Russian, missions outside of the UN vs the Vilani Imperium conflict that defined the period.

The only issue I have with the space elves is why they didn't back up any of their data files and out jump the blast wave.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

The Terrans/Solomani are awesome. Consider:

They spread their seed to at least three distant area (Darrians, Islands Cluster, Sword Worlds), one without even the use of Jump.
They corrupted Vilani culture AND outbred the Vilani over 3000 years so that now the Vilani longevity gene is but a recessive trait, and general Imperial culture little resemblance to old Vilani culture.

Solomani über alles!

Not well enough answered in either AM module was how ships outside the home system found out to warn colonies to create "Pulse Day". The examples spoken of talk about ships being caught in the EMP getting fried. Do you bypass the EMP wavefront in Jump Space?
Inverse square law makes me think just how poweful the EMP was if it could still fry equipment 6 parsecs away.

The only issue I have with the space elves is why they didn't back up any of their data files and out jump the blast wave.

From a 1980s writing perspective, I am guessing, imagining of future tech electronic back-up was understood as being more volitile. IRL, would '80s magnetic tapes/floppies get fried/magnetized to uselessness from an EMP? I don't know. I wrote code, not fix hardware...

 

[mike wightman]

The emp blast is a wavefront.
Ships in jumpspace are not affected by em radiation or you could just use radio to communicate with ships in jumpspace.

A ship in jumpspace inbound to Darrian when the star goes boom would arrive to be able to study the devastation, refuel and jump away.
You now have years to organise moving key data onto ships in jumpspace when the wave gets to them.
You have years to burry industrial machinery deep underground - or stick it on ships that can be safely in jumpspace when the wavefront hits.

 

[GypsyComet]

The timing of the Darrian contact is such that Vilani space would have been in "point and gloat" mode as the Rule of Man's remnants faded out around them, but also having to deal with the early Vargr incursions *alone* and as a much smaller state than before. Their stock of Terran/ROM J3 ships would have been small, as Vland itself had fallen to a fairly stable TL9 by the -1500s. Navigating Corridor was not going to be trivial.

Viiani explorers did get that far, and well beyond, turning up another two sectors to spinward much earlier, but that was also before the Consolidation Wars and statism really took hold. It is certainly possible that some of those really early Vilani found the Darrians, but getting across the wastelands of Foreven (based on the usual starmap) would have steered spinward explorers away from the dead end of the Darrian worlds toward the denser paths to coreward. Charted Space was all J1 at the time, so any gap is a logistics challenge, and with no extant civilizations close by to ask for help, you pick your paths carefully.

By comparison, the Terran groups that contacted the Darrians and settled the Sword Worlds were faster, more advanced, and looking for new homes.

 

[Whipsnade]

Does anyone else have a problem with the Daryen being uplifted by Turks?

Not in the slightest. As war game designers, GDW were either trained or autodidact historians. When they wrote OTU history, they often had historical analogues in mind.

It means that the Spinward Marches were twice hit by an influx of Solomani who came from a long ways a way.

Three actually. You're forgetting about the STL mission that settled Algine/Regina.

You're also making making snap assumptions about the Itzin Fleet rather than looking at the nuances and inferences both in the story and within it's context.

First, Itzin wasn't "Turks". The company was originally based in Turkey but at the time of the exodus was headquartered on Dingir. The Solomani loan words found in the Daryene tezapet are both Anglic and Turkic. Not the last, Turkic and not Turkish. From our friends at Wikipedia:

The term Turkic represents a broad ethno-linguistic group of peoples including existing societies such as Altai, Azerbaijanis, Balkars, Bashkirs, Chuvashes, Crimean Karaites, Gagauz, Karachays, Karakalpaks, Kazakhs, Khakas, Krymchaks, Kyrgyz people, Nogais, Qashqai, Tatars, Turkmens, Turkish people, Tuvans, Uyghurs, Uzbeks, and Yakuts...

The Anglic and Turkic linguistic heritage points at peoples from across Central Asia and everywhere else including off Terra. It wasn't simply a case of emigres packing up their suitcases in Ankara.

Second, the Itzin corporation had contacts across the Rule of Man. Not only did they use letters of transit as often as armed force during their voyage between Dingir and Vland, their emigration was sparked by a continuing deterioration of long distance trade in the RoM.

The RoM didn't implode in -1776. Much like 476AD, that date was one selected by historians well after the fact. Instead, the decision by the central Treasury at Hub not to honor a monetary issue by the treasury in Antares made long distance trade more fraught and spurred the slow disintegration of the empire into smaller and smaller regional blocks.

Itzin decided to emigrate nearly 250 years after -1776. Apparently by that point their long distant trade business had all but failed and they either couldn't or wouldn't crack into the the regional trade market along the Rim. They decided to leave while their information about and contacts with other parts of the RoM were still good, as the letters of transit they used neatly illustrates.

Isn't more likely they were uplifted by a Kimashargur group coming from Vland or even the Zira Sirka border a much closer place earlier in time giving them more time to travel a lesser distance?

More likely? Hell no.

What you're forgetting is that for those thousands of years "uplift" by the Vilani not only involved sharing technology and knowledge but also included imposing Vilani cultural norms by economic and military methods. A Vilani emigre fleet wouldn't have "came gently" to Darrian and assimilated with the existing Darrian culture in a few generations.

A Vilani emigre fleet would have installed Vilani overlords who would then spend patient generations turning the Darrians into "junior' Vilani.

You'll find that canon usually makes sense when you take the time truly examine it rather than making snap judgements.

 

[savage]

Does anyone else have a problem with the Daryen being uplifted by Turks? It means that the Spinward Marches were twice hit by an influx of Solomani who came from a long ways a way. Isn't more likely they were uplifted by a Kimashargur group coming from Vland or even the Zira Sirka border a much closer place earlier in time giving them more time to travel a lesser distance?

I think canon lets us down on the Darrians. Making them from human decent is rather dull. Attaching them to the Vilani is also a mistake. I prefer the concept that they we're a less successful Ancients experiment and that humans entering the region found the Darrians. The other way one would get Vilani or humans with pointed ears.

 

[Spartan159]

I think canon lets us down on the Darrians. Making them from human descent is rather dull. Attaching them to the Vilani is also a mistake. I prefer the concept that they were a less successful Ancients experiment and that humans entering the region found the Darrians. The other way one would get Vilani or humans with pointed ears.

IMTU The Daryen aka Darrians ARE a slight modification on the base human stock, the Turks merely reintroduced some genes on a small scale. The result is some few Daryen with some characteristics of both. (For those that dismiss the Darrians as space elves, yes that makes them space half-elves so )

I also do not have the Maghiz being such a destructive event on the other main worlds that had a warning, although the distant outposts that were lost were, in fact, secret ones. Known ones were recalled. Darrian itself while hardest hit of all the worlds of the cluster has recovered enough to rate the TL 16 rating albeit on a limited scale.

Given the attitude towards the Zhodani they do not stick their heads in the sand on psionics either, they just keep it out of the public eye in deference to the Imperials. (So yes, magical space elves )

Eh, just my Cr0.02 :coffeesip:

 

[Whipsnade]

IMTU The Daryen aka Darrians ARE a slight modification on the base human stock...

They are in the OTU too. There are changes to the pelvis, skin pigmentation which protects against sunlight but doesn't tan, a more easily reset metabolic rate, an ozone tolerance the Itzin emigres chose to copy via a retrovirus, and hinted at psychological "tweaks" among other things.

The pointed ears? Only shown in art in the CT alien module and not mentioned in that module's text, the text in earlier JTAS article, or any text since. I know people have a love-hate thing going with the space elves schtick but a few illos are easily ignored, especially considering how illos rarely match the text anyway.

... the Turks merely reintroduced some genes on a small scale.

Itzin was based on Dingir and the emigres left a legacy of both Anglic and Turkic loan words. It wasn't as if several thousand people from Instanbul showed up in orbit over Darrian.

I also do not have the Maghiz...

IMHO and IMTU, the JTAS version of the Maghiz is the more accurate one. The version told so breathlessly in the CT alien module is the "common knowledge" one; historical facts that aren't quite true but are constantly repeated anyway.

 

[Spartan159]

Ah, thanks for the heads up. I'll have to dig that out again, it's been a long time since I read that article.

The pointed ears never bothered me, then again I like Vulcans and Elves both

With regards to Istanbul, I say Constantinople! (And now I have the tiny toons skit in my head) Yeah, my bad on the implication. I was thinking in the generic when I wrote that, not literally Turkish genes.

 

[Blue Ghost]

*much snippage*

Itzin was based on Dingir and the emigres left a legacy of both Anglic and Turkic loan words. It wasn't as if several thousand people from Instanbul showed up in orbit over Darrian.



IMHO and IMTU, the JTAS version of the Maghiz is the more accurate one. The version told so breathlessly in the CT alien module is the "common knowledge" one; historical facts that aren't quite true but are constantly repeated anyway.

I was going to say, I don't recall anything in the write up about ... I don't know ... "Asia Minor" cultural influence.

Think of them as Vulcan/Space-Elves, as per the previous post.

 

[savage]

IMTU The Daryen aka Darrians ARE a slight modification on the base human stock, the Turks merely reintroduced some genes on a small scale. The result is some few Daryen with some characteristics of both. (For those that dismiss the Darrians as space elves, yes that makes them space half-elves so )

I also do not have the Maghiz being such a destructive event on the other main worlds that had a warning, although the distant outposts that were lost were, in fact, secret ones. Known ones were recalled. Darrian itself while hardest hit of all the worlds of the cluster has recovered enough to rate the TL 16 rating albeit on a limited scale.

Given the attitude towards the Zhodani they do not stick their heads in the sand on psionics either, they just keep it out of the public eye in deference to the Imperials. (So yes, magical space elves )

Eh, just my Cr0.02 :coffeesip:

Secret outposts. Good one. As for me I can see humans willingly altering their
genetic futures to make living on another world comfortable or even possible. I felt the sector needed a game changer neither human, Zho or Vargr. The others may be protagonists but adding a culture that is too smart for its own good is attractive. Hence, my take on the Darrians.

 

[Whipsnade]

Ah, thanks for the heads up. I'll have to dig that out again, it's been a long time since I read that article.

Read the JTAS article with the Alien Module in hand. Comparing and contrasting the two is an eye opener!

The pointed ears never bothered me...

They bother me because...

... then again I like Vulcans and Elves both...

... pointed ears mean people immediately assume the Darrians are Vulcan and/or Elves. Only a couple of years back someone tried to foist "Darrain Drow" onto the game in the form of "blue" Darrians from Entrope thanks to this "Darrians are Elves" thinking.

I loathe both knee jerk assumptions and lazy thinking especially when we take care to remember how often we see "wheels within wheels" within Traveller's stories. GDW wasn't staffed by lazy hacks and, while they borrowed ideas and motifs from actual history and other sources, they didn't straight up copy from the other guy's paper.

With regards to Istanbul, I say Constantinople! (And now I have the tiny toons skit in my head)...

Great cartoon with the "funny for kids/funny for adults" which made the originals so good.

Yeah, my bad on the implication. I was thinking in the generic when I wrote that, not literally Turkish genes.

No problem. Our Absent Friend Hans and I used to constantly remind each other of the depth of time in the OTU. It's easy to forget how many centuries have passed and how those centuries equal change. Look at the Itzin emigres' timeline for example.

-2204 see the RoM established with the Confederation Fleet headquarters at Dingir as the capital. That's as good a date as any for the Itzin Corporation to have moved from Asia Minor/Central Asia to Dingir although you could make good arguments for early and later ones.

428 years later in -1776 the Rom "falls" and roughly 250 years after that the Itzin emigre fleet begins it's journey. Let's put that in perspective.

Today, in 2017, the Itzin fleet leaves orbit. That means the RoM "fell' in 1767 and the RoM was founded in 1339.

The year 1339 sees the Yuan Dynasty in China, Edward III in England, and Philip IV in France. John the Blind still rules Bohemia and won't die until the Battle of Crecy in 1346. The Latin Empire put in place by the 4th Crusade still rules in Constantinople. Osman, the founder of what will become the Ottoman Empire, has been dead for about a decade and his heirs are still sorting out the tribal polity he left behind. Germany, Italy, and Spain are centuries away from unification. The Mali, Songhai, and Zeng empires bustling about in Africa. The Triple Alliance that will lead to the Aztec empire is over a century in the future.

When we remember the depth of time we're dealing with, calling the Itzin emigres "Turks" with all the assumptions and baggage that label entails becomes rather silly - especially when we remember the Itzin corporation has been based on Dingir and trading across the Second Imperium for nearly seven centuries.

Do the Itzin emigres bring the Darrians loan words? Certainly. Cuisine? Maybe. Traceable genetics? Sure. "Turkish" or "Turkic" customs, opinions, attitudes, beliefs, traditions, and politics from 2017 CE? Hell no.

 

[JeffreyAllanBeeler]

Vanajen

Vanajen is what got me started on this thread.
If the Vilani could make it that far why not Darrian?


QUOTE=JeffreyAllanBeeler;564218]Does anyone else have a problem with the Daryen being uplifted by Turks? It means that the Spinward Marches were twice hit by an influx of Solomani who came from a long ways a way. Isn't more likely they were uplifted by a Kimashargur group coming from Vland or even the Zira Sirka border a much closer place earlier in time giving them more time to travel a lesser distance?[/QUOTE]