TNE Only: Custom Turrets

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

From TNE FF&S Mk 1 Mod 0 Book III Weaponry Chapter 8 page 126 " A designer may always build a laser "turret" or "Barbette" that does not fit these parameters, and these may be readily installed aboard starships however they will not fit into standardized sockets."

How where the standard turret and barbette designed?
How do you make a custom turret and sockets?

I could have sworn I asked this question before and kept a copy of the discussion both in dead trees and a file on my computer. I have yet to find either copy and my search on COTI has failed to find any such topic.

I tried to use Chapter 1 to build the 3 displacement ton turret which resulted in the unmodified diameter of 4.6 m and 9 m for a modified hull.

T4 FF&S has a design process for designing turrets and I was hoping I could find a similar process. So far my search has turned up nothing.

Thank you for any help,

 

[TheDS]

My memory may be extremely rusty, but I was under the impression that the dimensions of the "standard" turret and barbette were defined in the book. A custom design would be one that does not conform to the stated dimensions.

Standard turret/barbette weapons will fit into standard turret/barbette sockets. If you design your own sockets, you will also have to design your own turrets that fit into them.

Or am I not understanding your question?

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello The DS

My memory may be extremely rusty, but I was under the impression that the dimensions of the "standard" turret and barbette were defined in the book. A custom design would be one that does not conform to the stated dimensions.

Standard turret/barbette weapons will fit into standard turret/barbette sockets. If you design your own sockets, you will also have to design your own turrets that fit into them.

Or am I not understanding your question?

Apparently I failed to clearly state my questions. I'll try this again.

TNE FF&S Mk I Mod 0 Book 1 Chapter 1 page 12 Step 5 shows that a 3 dton turret has of 42 m^3, a diameter of 3.6 m, a height of 4.2 m, and a surface area of 10 m^2. Book 3 Weaponry Chapter 8 Lasers page 126 lists the same numbers as does page 153 for turret and barbette socket missile launchers. From the dimensions I'm guessing the turrets and barbettes are cylinders.

Looking on the Hull Size table page 11 a spherical hull with a Rate of 3 dtons has a volume of 42 m^3, MC of 0.7, and L or diameter for spherical hulls, is 4.6 m. The Chassis Tables for ground vehicles and lift vehicles agree that the rate of 3 tons of displacement has a volume of 42 and a MV of 0.7.

The turret's displacement of 3 tons and volume of 42 m^3 matches the table on page 11. Unfortunately the unmodified diameter is 4.6 which does not match turret's 3.6 m diameter. The cylinder has a L modifier of 2 x L/Diameter or 2 x 4.6 = 9.2 m.

Apparently the turrets and barbettes described on TNE FF&S did not use Book 1 Chapter 1 to design them. Checking through FF&S the only details I found for designing a weapon mount was for bays in Book 3 Weaponry Chapters 5, 6, and 8.

To check my theory I check to see is the dimensions of 3.6 meter diameter and 4.2 meter matches the volume of 42 m^3 using the formula: (4/3) x Pi x r^3

r = 0.5 x Diameter 3.6 = 1.8

(4/3) x Pi x 1.8^3=
(4/3) x Pi x 5.832 =
rounding (4/3) x Pi to four decimal places = 4.1888
4.1888 x 5.832 = 24.429 m^3 = rounding to the ones place = 24 m^3

This does not match the turret's volume of 42 m^3.

I tried this for the barbette and failed to match the listed numbers.

1. How were the standard 3 displacement ton (dton) turret and 6 dton barbette designed?

Without knowing how the "standard" turret and "standard" barbette where put together how can anyone put together custom turrets/barbettes.

 

[TheDS]

Ok, I think I understand the problem now. And I found my digital copy of FFS to help.

If you take the dimensions provided for the turrets, you will find that they come out to being 3 and 6 Dtons, as expected. However, when you model the turrets using the hull table, you get dimensions other than the ones stated. Worse, when you check the numbers the hull table provides, you find them inaccurate.

For the first problem, it's clear that they simply specified dimensions for the turrets, because they do not conform to the 2:1 length:width ratio listed for cylinders. However, the dimensions given do work out to 3 and 6 tons.

The second problem appears to me to be a misprint, as a 42 kl sphere works out to be about 4.3 meters in diameter, not 4.6 as stated in the table.

You do not have to rigidly follow the hull-design sequence, you can simply put in your own numbers if you want. There's no reason you can't build a box ship with "Monolith" proportions of 1:4:9, or something ridiculously long like 10:1:1, as long as they are close, you are fine.

IMO, using values that the hull table provides would be "standard", and those which use other values would be "custom". This may be relevant if wanting to use the "10% standard design discount", or for other reasons.

 

[TheDS]

I just remembered something: I recall seeing somewhere that the first 10 hulls on the table are NOT spheres, but boxes shaped somewhat like cars. It's generally assumed that the smaller hulls will be used for vehicles, which is why they did that. So, it's NOT a typo, it's a poorly known, intentional design decision intended to make certain things more realistic.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening TheDS,

My apologies for answering out of order and thank you for the time taken to help me out.

I just remembered something: I recall seeing somewhere that the first 10 hulls on the table are NOT spheres, but boxes shaped somewhat like cars. It's generally assumed that the smaller hulls will be used for vehicles, which is why they did that. So, it's NOT a typo, it's a poorly known, intentional design decision intended to make certain things more realistic.

I recall something similar being mentioned, however searching through my CT, MT, TNE, and T4 material so far has come up empty. I also seem to recall that for shape was the closed structure.

TNE FF&S there is four design sequences, three of which use volume to design a spacecraft, ground vehicle, and lift vehicles. The ground and lift vehicles design sequences use volume from 1 displacement ton to 10 displace tons.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello TheDS,

Thank you for the reply and my apologies for answering out of ordr.

Ok, I think I understand the problem now. And I found my digital copy of FFS to help.

If you take the dimensions provided for the turrets, you will find that they come out to being 3 and 6 Dtons, as expected. However, when you model the turrets using the hull table, you get dimensions other than the ones stated. Worse, when you check the numbers the hull table provides, you find them inaccurate.

For the first problem, it's clear that they simply specified dimensions for the turrets, because they do not conform to the 2:1 length:width ratio listed for cylinders. However, the dimensions given do work out to 3 and 6 tons.

Please provide the formula used in calculating that the dimensions of 3.6 m in diameter and a height of 4.2 m equals a volume of 42 M^3 or 3 displacement tons.

The two basic shapes I know using diameter and height are cylinders and cones. I've used the volume and surface area formulas for both shapes without a match.

The second problem appears to me to be a misprint, as a 42 kl sphere works out to be about 4.3 meters in diameter, not 4.6 as stated in the table.

Yippee, my math is right on the diameter, unfortunately the diameter still does not match that of a cylinder with a diameter of 3.6 meters and a height of 4.2 meters.

You do not have to rigidly follow the hull-design sequence, you can simply put in your own numbers if you want. There's no reason you can't build a box ship with "Monolith" proportions of 1:4:9, or something ridiculously long like 10:1:1, as long as they are close, you are fine.

In theory all of the standard ships, ground vehicles, and other assorted equipment where designed using the design sequence as written and modified by errata.

The failure to rigidly follow the hull design sequence is one of the biggest reasons individuals like me cannot verify the published designs a way to ensure understanding of the design sequence.

The PA, MG, and Laser design sequences provide a way to design bays by using a two formulas that when followed recreates the published "standard" 50 and 100 displacement ton bays.

There is no discussion of how the values for a "standard" turret or "standard" barbette where created like the bays.

T4 FF&S does have a method for building turrets that recreates the standard 3 displacement turret and 6 displacement turret because as you mentioned there is a ratio involved.

If I where ever to submit a design my main goal is to ensure that anyone could, I hope, use the design sequence and recreate the design. Of course that would all depend if I actually interpreted the design sequences correctly.

IMO, using values that the hull table provides would be "standard", and those which use other values would be "custom". This may be relevant if wanting to use the "10% standard design discount", or for other reasons.

The designs in published TNE resources in theory are the standard ones, which I should be able to recreate by following the design sequences.

Thank you again for the reply

 

[GypsyComet]

Turret cans are not bound by the dimensions for vessel hulls. The hull dimensions were not intended to be set in stone, either, which is why one of the books can shove a 3 dton lifeboat into a socket.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello GypsyComet,

Turret cans are not bound by the dimensions for vessel hulls. The hull dimensions were not intended to be set in stone, either, which is why one of the books can shove a 3 dton lifeboat into a socket.

TNE Bays do not appear to be bound by the dimensions for a vessels hull either but a method was provided to design any size bay. This means that if I wanted a 10 displacement ton bay I could build one and should I share the design somewhere anyone, in theory, should be able to recreate the bay by using changing the formula using the volume to determine the long dimension then follow the rules and get the short dimension(s).

The 10 displacement ton bay is a custom bay and, in my opinion, a legal option for use in TNE since anyone could reverse engineer the design using the displacement tons x 14 = volume.

A 3 displacement ton turret socket takes up 42 m^3 of volume which means anything with <= 43 m^2 can use the empty socket.

My apologies to TheDS since I just discovered my fat fingers kept entering 4.3 instead of 4.2 when calculating the volume of a turret cylinder and rounding the resulting volume value. The barbette's total volume using the dimensions given results in a rounded volume of 83 m^3 versus 84. Adjusting 5.25 to 5.3 and rounding the volume does give me a match of 84. On second thought I'm blaming computer gremlins for changing my numbers.

Now that I've gotten the dimensions to work out for the volume, thank you TheDS for catching my math error and keeping me honest, I'll try my obviously poor math skills and have a go at the surface area hoping that this goes better.

The laser turret's surface area is 10 m.

A cylinder's surface area is calculated by (2 x PI x r x h) + (2 x PI x r^2) which is not going to work based on depictions of lasers on TNE spacecraft. The depictions I've seen makes the laser focal array look like a hockey puck which appears to have the same diameter as the cylinder but has a much shorter height.

Looks like I'll need to do some tinkering to come figure out the height of the laser array. Which also makes me ask the question about fitting missile launchers into the same size turrets.

I guess I'll stick with the standard turrets or barbettes if I ever post a TNE design since that will be the only way to better my chances of not having that portion of the design challenged as being a home brewed rule.

 

[GypsyComet]

I had a two-array point-defense turret can posted on my old site for years, though without worksheet. No one worried about it.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello GypsyComet,

I had a two-array point-defense turret can posted on my old site for years, though without worksheet. No one worried about it.

Had I found the two-array turret I would have been asking questions when I could not figure out how to duplicate the turret.

The only designs that I submitted used GURPS Traveller on the old GURPS JTAS site. I got dinged for a number of items one of them was a non-standard turret.

Since that time I've not bothered to submit designs.

Heck, I failed at trying to add the pop turret and mobile turrets into CT here on COTI.

I've also failed to convince a forum member trying to update the Rb-98r4 spreadsheet that the TNE FF&S space missiles shown on page 153 that the nuclear-pumped x-ray laser warhead does not contain the guidance system.

I maybe wrong but my understanding, okay guesses, are that the short-range tracker is either HRT or PEMS with a range of 3,000 km which is used to fire the nuclear device's detonator as a back-up to the operator's detonation command over the laser communicator via the warhead's laser receiver.

The guidance package is added along with propellant or a drive allowing the missile to maneuver while closing on the target under the control of a gunner/operator, semi-independently, of as a fully independent fire and forget weapon.

The individual feels that the guidance system is subsumed into a nuclear pump x-ray laser warhead's components.

I have made attempts in trying to recreate official designs using the official design sequence and failed to match the published values. Even when I try different rounding methods I've failed to match the numbers. My guess is that certain manipulations not written on the rules got used and when someone like me tries to recreate the hull we fail. Which frustrates me to no end.

Oops, thank you GypsyComet for all your help and cool stuff I've stolen, I mean used over the past years.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening all,

First thank you all for providing assistance with my question and I may have figured out turret design with that help.

Turret sockets are cylinders that use the volume formula of: Pi x r^2 x h
and the surface area is determined by the formula of Pi x r^2.

The next step is to stuff a weapon into the resulting dimensions.

 

[TheDS]

I found the reference to the lower-sized hulls. It's in the Ground Vehicle Design section, on page 17, Step 1: Chassis.

Just in case that was bothering you.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning (PDT) TheDS

I found the reference to the lower-sized hulls. It's in the Ground Vehicle Design section, on page 17, Step 1: Chassis.

Just in case that was bothering you.

Thank you for the suggestion.

Unfortunately following Book 1 Chapter 2 Ground Vehicles Design rules, if I understand the following rule section on TNE FF&S Mk I Mod 0 page 17:

To represent this feature in the design, all components mounted in the turret consume more than their actual volume. To determine the exact increase in volume, consult the Turret Efficiency table, below.

means that a space vessel designed TL 14 standard turret laser with an actual volume of 38 m^3 would be consuming a volume of 76 m^3 which would not fit the turret's volume of 42 m^3.

 

[TheDS]

Vehicle turrets aren't the same thing as spacecraft turrets, they just happen to have the same name, and do largely the same thing. Other than what you're mounting them on and the way you design them, the easiest way to tell the difference is that vehicle turrets - even the small ones - consume a considerable fraction of the vehicle they are mounted on, and you can have only one.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello The Ds,

Vehicle turrets aren't the same thing as spacecraft turrets, they just happen to have the same name, and do largely the same thing. Other than what you're mounting them on and the way you design them, the easiest way to tell the difference is that vehicle turrets - even the small ones - consume a considerable fraction of the vehicle they are mounted on, and you can have only one.

From the earlier post:

I found the reference to the lower-sized hulls. It's in the Ground Vehicle Design section, on page 17, Step 1: Chassis.

Just in case that was bothering you.

Reviewing the information in Post 13 (514109) I agree that the Spacecraft Hull Sizes of 1 to 10 displacement tons match, with the exception of L, the Ground Vehicle Chassis Size Table.

Based on the original post my understanding is that for spacecraft hulls between 1 and 10 displacement tons that I want to install one or more weapons in a turret I should follow TNE FF&S Book 1 Chapter 2 Ground Vehicle Design Step 1: Chassis.

My response in Post 14 (514179) indicated that following the rules in TNE FF&S Book 1 Chapter 1 a spacecraft standard TL 15 150-Mj x-ray laser does not fit into a standard 3 displace ton or 42 m^3 turret when applying Book 1 Chapter 2 Vehicle Design Step 1. Chassis rules.

My calculation indicate that a spacecraft standard TL 15 150-Mj x-ray laser has a volume, rounding to two decimal places, of 37.69 m^3. If I understand the following Book 1 Chapter 2 Ground Vehicle Design Step 1: Chassis/Turret rules the TL 15 150-Mj x-ray laser non-standard ground vehicle turret's exact increase in volume = Turret Efficiency Multiplier 2 x 37.69 Laser volume = 75.38 m^3 or 5.38 displacement tons.

A standard 3 displacement ton turret with a TL 15 150-Mj x-ray laser appears to be a better fit.

Thank you again The DS for the comments,