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CT Only: Crew effect in HG2 combat

McPerth

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As I have said already in some threads, I see one of the rules all too often forgotten in any HG combat (mostly in BCS/TCS tourney style engagements) is the effect of crew quality (mainly the two skills that in HG2 directly affect dice rolls; Pilot and Ship Tactics).

As I once already suggested, simply adding to one of such engagements 1 each such skills at level 5 and 3 at level 3 gives quite survivality added to larger ships, as they can concéntrate those skills in large ships, adding to them 1 computer rating for those with level 3 tactics and 2 for those with level 5 tactics and similar numbers to agility.

See that those effects on agility will easily be cancelled by the fact those ships are larger, but the effects on computer rating against sips wihtout those tactics bonus are higher, as they affect also any penentration table.

So, a single Dreadnough (lead by a tactics 5 capitain and piloted by a skill 5 pilot) figting 108 hamsters (to make their number easy to divide by 36, so easing numbers) now is harder to hit (10+ instead of 6+, so reducing hits from 63 to 18) and the hamsters missiles are more often neutralized by the dampers (that, without this tactics bonus only penetrate them on a 12). This aside from the repulsors the dreadnough has...

And if the dreadnough achieves initiative (even if the hamsters have +1 for larger numbers, it would happen sometimes) the hamsters would achieve only 9 hits, due to the -1 DM for missiles at short range.

And meanwhile, the dreadnough's own missiles, with their +2 to hit and to penetrate given by his commander will keep damaging the hamsters, while its spinal destroys them one at a time.

Of course, one of the hamsters would also have the computer bonus (but the agility bonus of the dreadnough will still affect it), and 3 of them will have a computer bonus of 1, but that's a very small effect on 108 ships...
 
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The reason it is 'forgotten' is that there is no way to account for it in tournament play. So all ships are assumed to have regular quality crew.

Hidden within those skills rules is a very simple crew quality system:
green - -1
regular
veteran- +1
elite- +2

I agree with your reasoning - in the 'real world' the elite crews will man your BBs - but if your enemies are doing the same the bonuses cancel :devil:
 
I agree with your reasoning - in the 'real world' the elite crews will man your BBs - but if your enemies are doing the same the bonuses cancel :devil:

Tactics skills may cancel each other, but the bonus to agility for the pilot may not...

This aside, that's why I suggest a limit of such individuals. I guess there will not be enough of them for all the hamsters, but, as the dreadnoughts are less in number, they can have bonus on most of them.

That is also why I didn't even talk about fleet tactis effect on the initiative roll, as any of those individuals in any fleet will cancel each other (remember I'm talking about a BCS/TCS tournment style match, where fleets are balanced in assets, so also in such individuals).
 
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The reason it is 'forgotten' is that there is no way to account for it in tournament play. So all ships are assumed to have regular quality crew.

And we need to change that.

Hidden within those skills rules is a very simple crew quality system:
green - -1
regular
veteran- +1
elite- +2

This is much needed. Also allow more than one system to be repaired for each +DM

I agree with your reasoning - in the 'real world' the elite crews will man your BBs - but if your enemies are doing the same the bonuses cancel :devil:

If BBs die as fast as they used to...no more elite crews?
 
If BBs die as fast as they used to...no more elite crews?

But it will probably take another BB to defeat them...

Just try how many hamsters can a single BB defeat with the simple changes (on the BCS/TCS assents, not even in HG rules) I suggested in the OP.
 
The reason it is 'forgotten' is that there is no way to account for it in tournament play. So all ships are assumed to have regular quality crew.

That need not be so.

TCS gives you a number of "pilots" ... because of a misconceived retro-analysis of the HG academy which "demonstrates" that fighter pilots are the elite and "therefore" fighters are what it's all about.

A similar approach could be taken.

The ruling skill is level - 2.

But you have X many ship commanders with Ship Tactics - 3, and Y many with Ship Tactics - 5.

And X many pilot -3 and Y many pilot - 5

And you can allocate them within your fleets and squadrons as you see fit.


My own view is that any worthwhile naval campaign rules include provision for the management of your Naval Academy for the creation of additional, up-skilled crews.

Imagine ... spend less on building your fleets, and more on developing the crews that enable you to fight better with inferior kit.

It adds a whole new dimension, does it not?
 
Imagine ... spend less on building your fleets, and more on developing the crews that enable you to fight better with inferior kit.
I suspect the various navies are already doing that. Relative to the cost of the ships they serve in, Traveller space navies only have 1.25% of the crew that 21st Century navies have. Or in other words, Traveller starships cost 80 times more per crewman than 21st Century warships. So a relatively bigger investment in training and education won't reduce the number of ships very much.


Hans
 
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Your Naval Academy is going to end up like a cross between Ender's Game and ancient Sparta...

'course you could just crew them with skill level 4 robots :CoW:
 
Your Naval Academy is going to end up like a cross between Ender's Game and ancient Sparta...

'course you could just crew them with skill level 4 robots :CoW:

Arbitrary ruling:

Level-2 is the "default" skill level; ergo it is the maximum skill that an automaton robot can be programmed to.

Problem solved :p
 
I suspect the various navies are already doing that. Relative to the cost of the ships they serve in, Traveller space navies only have 1.25% of the crew that 21st Century navies have. Or in other words, Traveller starships cost 80 times more per crewman than 21st Century warships. So a relatively bigger investment in training and education won't reduce the number of ships very much.


Hans

That depends ...

What does it actually TAKE to train a pilot-2 up to pilot-3 skill?

I envisage a course with a very intensive amount of piloting experience involved (so specialist training ships having to be built) and a rather low success rate so you need to put lots and lots of candidates through the course (or have lots of centres able to run the course ... each with their specialist training ships ... ) in order to get just a few who succeed. And as for Ship Tactics courses ...

(And before anyone asks ... NO! I do NOT think these courses could be successfully delivered by computer simulation ... )
 
That depends ...

What does it actually TAKE to train a pilot-2 up to pilot-3 skill?

I envisage a course with a very intensive amount of piloting experience involved (so specialist training ships having to be built) and a rather low success rate so you need to put lots and lots of candidates through the course (or have lots of centres able to run the course ... each with their specialist training ships ... ) in order to get just a few who succeed. And as for Ship Tactics courses ...

(And before anyone asks ... NO! I do NOT think these courses could be successfully delivered by computer simulation ... )
You need someone with pilot 4 and instruction 4...

Which by the way could be robot skills :CoW: - so a combat simulator could easily train a meat being all the way to skill 3.

More seriously I can see basic then advanced training taking you from unskilled to skill level 2 in a term.

To get to level 3 would require a simulator/instructor 4/4 - this may fit into the first term as a special duty

To get skill 4 you are going to have to pick the relevant skill as your area of experience, so a minimum of 2 terms served.

If you ever get to skill level 5 you are going to be pulled from active duty and forced to learn instruction to 5 too for training purposes.

Mind you, the Imperium probably has a warehouse sized synaptic storage based TL15 simulator that has been learning from battle reports going back to the first frontier war, but now we are getting into sinister secrets of the third Imperium territory ;)
 
Mind you, the Imperium probably has a warehouse sized synaptic storage based TL15 simulator that has been learning from battle reports going back to the first frontier war, but now we are getting into sinister secrets of the third Imperium territory ;)

As I always say to the moon landing conspiracy theorists ... if it really WAS all filmed in a giant warehouse in California ... do the math to figure out just how many people would be in on the secret; and then apply your basic knowledge of human psychology to figure out the chances that in the intervening 45 years NONE of them would have got greedy, and sold the story, along with some COMPELLING evidence that provide the conspiracy.

It ain't happened ...

I rather think we're in similar territory with this kinda stuff :rofl:
 
What does it actually TAKE to train a pilot-2 up to pilot-3 skill?
Real life actually or game rule actually? Real life actually would be experience and talent. A good instructor will speed up the process, but the limiting factor is aptitude and a student with more aptitude can in time exceed an instructor with less.

I envisage a course with a very intensive amount of piloting experience involved (so specialist training ships having to be built) and a rather low success rate so you need to put lots and lots of candidates through the course (or have lots of centres able to run the course ... each with their specialist training ships ... ) in order to get just a few who succeed. And as for Ship Tactics courses ...
To go from adequate professional standard to good professional standard? And with a potential labor pool like an interstellar state would have? I think not.


Hans
 
That depends ...

What does it actually TAKE to train a pilot-2 up to pilot-3 skill?

More or less the same that it takes to learn any skill from level 2 to 3. If we go again to the only skill where a clear statement is given about what skill 3 means (Medical), how many doctors (medic 3 skill) do exist? I guess more or less that same number of pilot 3 individuals may exist.

See that half of flight school graduates will begin their duty with Pilot 2, and, in the IN (with a +2 DM to MOS skills), one third of MOS skills will be pilot, so I guess there would be a fair number of flight officers with Pilot 3 at the end of the second term.

Your Naval Academy is going to end up like a cross between Ender's Game and ancient Sparta...

'course you could just crew them with skill level 4 robots :CoW:

While this is quite posible with RAW, those same rules tell us that true AI is not posible at TL 15 (even at TL 16), so I guess they cannot be trusted for independent operations and they should have a malus on their opperations due to lack of ingenuity and creative though, predictable tactics, etc...

This is really not ruled in CT, and so, open to debate.
 
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The reason it is 'forgotten' is that there is no way to account for it in tournament play. So all ships are assumed to have regular quality crew.

Hidden within those skills rules is a very simple crew quality system:
green - -1
regular
veteran- +1
elite- +2

I agree with your reasoning - in the 'real world' the elite crews will man your BBs - but if your enemies are doing the same the bonuses cancel :devil:

OK, but if you can only have 10 elite crews and so no more than 30% veteran, it suddenly becomes more desirable to build bigger ships for them to man, er crew.

Regards

David
 
I've been pondering a way to make Fleet Tactics a more potent skill. It should be one of the key skills, of critical signifcance in a squadron or fleet commander ... not simply a DM for the initiative roll.

I think I have come upon a way to deal with this ... and it is actually very straghtforward.

In any action with more than a single ship on each side, there needs to be an overall commander on each side ... and he NEEDS Fleet Tactics skill. Moreover, the more ships he has in his line, the greater skill he needs to co-ordinate their efforts.

So ... the maximum number of ships a commander can control in his battle line is 2 to the power of his level of Fleet Tactics skill; So FT-1 is good to control a 2-ship line of battle; FT-2 is good to control a 4-ship line of battle; FT-3 is good to control an 8-ship line of battle; FT-4 is good to control a 16 ship line-of-battle and so on. Each squadron of fighters is equivalent to one ship for these purposes.

If a commander lacks the skill level to be able to control the number of ships he has in his line of battle, then the number of levels by which his skill is deficient applies as a DM on ALL of the opposing side's "to hit" rolls ... on the basis that an incompetent fleet commander (or one wiht insufficient competence effectively to control the number of units under his command) is liable to adopt poor tactics and put his ships unnecessarily in the line of fire.

Thus, if a commander with Fleet-Tactics 2 has more than 4 but no more than 8 ships in his line of battle, he is deficient by one level and his opponents get a +1 DM on all their "to hit" rolls. If he has more than 8 but no more than 16 ships in his line of battle, then he is deficient by two levels and his opponents get a +2 DM on all their "to hit" rolls; and so on.

This DM does not apply to penetration rolls; since prevention of penetration is down to the skill of the ship commander and his crew, not the fleet commander.

There is room within this for Fleet Tactics-0 to have meaning, if no skill at all is counted as a skill level of minus 1. The commander with Fleet Tactics-0 is always out of his depth trying to control a battle line of more than 1 ship, but less out of his depth than a commander with no skill at all.

This rule mod will also help to justify the construction of large ships: it enables you to pack mor efightin gpower into a battle line that can be controlled by a commander with a lesser level of Fleet Tactics skill.
 
So ... the maximum number of ships a commander can control in his battle line is 2 to the power of his level of Fleet Tactics skill; So FT-1 is good to control a 2-ship line of battle; FT-2 is good to control a 4-ship line of battle; FT-3 is good to control an 8-ship line of battle; FT-4 is good to control a 16 ship line-of-battle and so on. Each squadron of fighters is equivalent to one ship for these purposes.

I like it, but allow me to suggest a variation to better establish a command chain:

Fleet Tactics allow the commander to control in the frontline a number of ships equal to 2(Fleet Tactics skill level +1). So, a commander with Fleet Tactics 2 amy control up to 23 (so 8) ships.

For the overall commander in a fleet, those ships can be subtituted by subcommanders (so, the FT 2 officer told about above could control 8 subcommanders instead of ships, each of them controlling some ships, if he was the overall commander).

This number of ships controlled is doubled if the ships controled are subcrafts of his flagship*, due to better command and control (so a comodore with FT 1 in a tender can control up to 8 BRs as long as they are his own tender's giving a bonus for multi BR Tenders).

*Alternativelly all ships are from the same squadron​

For fighters, each squadron counts as one ship if controlled by its own squadron leader or a flight officer in their own carrier (how many fighters compose a squadron is to be decided), and they count as subcommanders even for a non overall commander.

So, an aldmiral with FT 2 can control up to 8 tenders, each one with a comodore with FT 1 controlling 6 BRs plus 2 flight control officers, each with FT 1 and controlling 4 fighter squadrons, for a total of 48 BRs and 64 fighter squadrons.
 
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