Computers TNE/CT

[Villien]

I was working at my 'puter the other day, and a thought struck me. After picking myself off of the floor and wiping that thought-residue from the side of my head, I was able to piece together what had hit me.

With TNE, ship computers have been broken up into 3 "safe" dumb computers. Ok, that's fine for the Regency, who survived Virus and found a countermeasure.

What about the older ships out there? They would not have the tricomputer design, and would have the older model computers running the works.

How do I design starships in the TNE method (BL) but with the older computers? Mass? Energy usage? Cost? Volume?

I love designing ships, and yet, this threw me off, and made me pause.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[TheDS]

AFAIK Traveller has always used triple main computers, so no change is required.

What TNE does is it seperates the interfaces so that when one system needs to talk to others (like sensors needs to hand off a task to weapons) they use a manual means. No additional volume, but could take more time. It also allows players to perform tasks.

Now this extra step is only present in the TNE universe, but FFS was written such that it allowed just about any setting you wanted, and so computers were not grown to reflect whatever these new interfaces might look like, nor was the task system changed for it. FFS2 has some computer control percentage somewhere; you can specify the level of automation in the ship, but I think all that does is affect the crew requirements and perhaps the cost.

 

[Villien]

Thanks, that makes sense to me. The size and mass and energy requirement for the 3 is the same as if it were 1.

So I should not worry about Model # and such?

 

[MJD]

The Vilani never trusted technology 100%. They lived on a world where Ancient warbots chased each other about. So they were always a little bit more careful about systems integrastion than the rest of the Imperium. Ships built in traditional Vilani yards would have cutouts built in and relatrively easy to implement. Standard-Imperial designs were more integrated and MUCH harder to covert to seperate use...

 

[Erik Boielle]

Originally posted by MJD:
The Vilani never trusted technology 100%. They lived on a world where Ancient warbots chased each other about. So they were always a little bit more careful about systems integrastion than the rest of the Imperium. Ships built in traditional Vilani yards would have cutouts built in and relatrively easy to implement. Standard-Imperial designs were more integrated and MUCH harder to covert to seperate use...

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry I can't help myself but I am a virus partisan and like I liked its unstoppable force of nature thing.

Consider it a practice question for when dealing with those uppity fans.

Cause obviously I wouldn't be negative.



So you've got Strephon gutting his fleets fire control systems over a report he read (no wonder he can't win) and the Vilani gutting theirs over something that happened in their childhood (no wonder they couldn't beat the terrans).

Its raining and hes an antique dealer, so its natural that he has a trenchcoat and four katanas.

And besides, none of that would slow virus down.

Ifn I was writing it naturally.



Really, I don't mean anything by it.

 

[TheDS]

Was *ANY* of that supposed to make sense to *ANYONE*, Erik?

 

[Erik Boielle]

Maybe I can translate.

The first part is an apology for being about to say something like

'But Thats Not Canon!'

and for being about to be negative.

Both are almost unforgivable crimes against humanity, I think you'll agree.

Then I go on to complain about the vilani getting partial virus immunity from a traditional practice of not having monolithic computer systems run their ships, and tangentially touch on Strephon getting PVI from knowing about Virus from his days as Emperor and Taking Steps.

By saying that Obviously the steps necesscary would be far to radical to implement over stories told by parents to scare their children.

But thats really a weak argument.

Yasee, its not actually that I find these concepts offensive in and of themselves, but because I Liked Virus, and don't like that these things move it away from being an unstoppable force of nature that you can only survive by either waiting for it to burn itself out or by burning down every ship that you come in to contact with before it sends you a hail.

But things change, and I'm sure its for the best.

So I guess I'll just have to hug my copy of PoT and rock until the pain goes away, as I'm sure it will.

And hey, I don't care that much, I just liked the Vikings.

The bit about Katanas doens't entirely work, but I assure you I was trying to be rude.

 

[MJD]

Can anyone point me to a canon reference that says 'the Vilani used computer systems that were as integrated as everyone else'?

Remember their early history and the fact that they're super-traditional.

I half-expect that when Virus hit the Vilani were saying 'told you so'.

As to the rest, well, after the early rants I tend to more or less ignore Erik. Strephon must have been incompetent because Erik dislikes aristocrats. Not good enough, give me a real reason.

Nobody can be Virus resistant because Erik likes Virus? Not good enough. Give me a real reaosn and I'll listen.

 

[mike wightman]

There is a reference which may be relevant in DGP's Vilani & Vargr(is it still considered part of canon ).
It mentions that many technological devices, including starship drives, are opperated as "black boxes". The techs and engineers don't understand how the insides work.
In order to make repairs integrated expert computer systems diagnose and give the procedures necessary to carry out repairs

.

 

[MJD]

Ah yes. Vilani computer field repair kits - a big envelope for mailing it back to the factory...

It's not a big leap from black-boxes to semi-compartmentalizing computers. Given that hackers will strike from time to time and the Vilani aren't great computer/techy people, it makes sense to have physcial cutouts just in case.

 

[Erik Boielle]

Course, since they can't tell if something isn't working right, then the virus scores, while if the diagnostic kit gets infected... and the casual shipping of faulty parts back to base is a good infection vector.



(Or naturally, the distributed nature of the system really slows down the Virus as it has to re-write itself for each system, while the techs are used to pulling non functioning parts and replacing them.

You could use this to have a large number of ships floating in space with their computers ripped out (waiting to be salvaged), or to give infected Vilani ships a different character - a sort of hive of lots of different virus personalities rather than one big one.)

Ah, hell, having lots of players is cool, and all I really wanted was to try to raise the profile of the Coalition and Virus as something thought of fondly and worthy of not ( for instance) loosing a battle in a humiliating defeat to the bloody classist poopyheads.

Honest.

 

[DED]

Originally posted by MJD:
Can anyone point me to a canon reference that says 'the Vilani used computer systems that were as integrated as everyone else'?

I certainly don't know of any. In fact, what I've read supports the opposite.

Remember their early history and the fact that they're super-traditional.

Very true. Technology is developed at a snail's pace. Just look at the 1st Imperium. How many centuries of limited technological progress? And apparently the practice continued up through the Rebellion. Here's an interesting quote:

"Vilani craft follow traditional standards set down millenia ago by the naval architects of the First Imperium."

I'd say that supports Martin's assertion.

I half-expect that when Virus hit the Vilani were saying 'told you so'.

They probably were.

However, wave upon wave of doomslayers buzzing up the Vilani Main had to have taken their toll on the Ziru Sirkaa.

I also stumbled upon a little nugget of info that I never knew before: When the Vilani told Lucan to take a flying leap, all privately owned starships were required to register with the Ziru Sirkaa. This registration process involved lots of bureaucratic red tape and "a complete transponder replacement." And after that the transponder was replaced every year. Unregistered ships operating in Vilani space were impounded. Repeat offenders had their ships confiscated.

This brings up an interesting question, were these transponders the same ones the Imperium used? Since transponders have been cited as the primary means of Viral infection, the answer to this could have serious implications.

It might indeed be another solid footing for Martin's argument that the Vilani weathered Virus better than everyone (including me) thought.

 

[TheDS]

This does not necessarily make Vland immune. Virus is not some little program that errors out and crashes if it doesn't succeed on it's first try. It is an unimaginably adaptable lifeform that was designed specifically to invade foreign and alien computer systems and shut them down. Having a different transponder doesn't save you, it just delays the inevitable by about 10 minutes (give or take 10 minutes).

Let's not forget that ALL of known space crashed when the virus came. The only ones who survived were the ones who had advanced word, and most of THOSE instances saw the warning carrying the virus as well!

If Vland was at TL15, then Vland did things the way everyone else did. The Vilani megacorps are concerned with making money. They're not going to use antiquated TL 9 gear or techniques that are incompatible with the mass of their customers. That's expensive. Like all life forms, they will adapt to whatever costs less to achieve the desired goal. They're going to use stuff that's compatible with a wide spectrum of techs and techniques, just like everybody else, or they are going to fail financially. If you do not remain competitive, your company goes away. Even MS couldn't last long if it stopped pushing the envelop. (Save your jokes, this isn't the place.)

Being traditional does not make one stupid, nor prevent one from seeing advantage where it lays. Tradition pays homage to one's past, to honor the sacrifices of those who have gone into the night before us. It is NOT a crippling disease.

Take a look at the navy. A navy is a technological feat. Even small differences can be critical. You have to stay ahead of your competition to have a chance of winning a battle. Yet the navy has a lot of traditions. If you take a look at some of them, you'll see they are all harmless homages. If tradition gets in the way of technology that improves survivability, guess which goes out the window?

The Vilani jum-dimming is a tradition. It is harmless. The Solomani Penguin on the holotank is also a harmless tradition. If there was some compelling reason to stop doing them, they would stop in a heartbeat.

So the Vilani are no luckier than the Hivers (indeed, less lucky because they were closer to the problem zone, and not as good at computer stuff), and no more well protected than Daibei. The Vilani were buried just like everyone else. Unless MJD reveals some compelling bit of Canon that tells us something, then he's pulling out of his ass (like any good GM should), and it will be at least as believable as the Rebellion was in the first place.

 

[DED]

Originally posted by TheDS:
This does not necessarily make Vland immune. <snip>

I wasn't trying to argue that Vland was immune. I was saying that maybe they did indeed weather Virus better than their surroundings. To throw in an analogy, instead of being sent sprawling to the ground by Virus, they got sent to their knees.

And I did point out that it wouldn't do much good against fleet after fleet of doomslayers.

If Vland was at TL15, then Vland did things the way everyone else did. <snip>

I would say that the US and England are of the same tech level, yet there's differences with regards to how technology is implemented. Take electrical outlets for example. Completely incompatible. Although you can buy adapters, there's no guarantee they'll work (as I discovered).

So the Vilani are no luckier than the Hivers (indeed, less lucky because they were closer to the problem zone, and not as good at computer stuff), and no more well protected than Daibei. The Vilani were buried just like everyone else. Unless MJD reveals some compelling bit of Canon that tells us something, then he's pulling out of his ass (like any good GM should), and it will be at least as believable as the Rebellion was in the first place.

I've been very skeptical with regards to Vland surviving Virus, let alone with any measure of strength to kick anyone's butt. However, I am trying to be flexible here. I'm trying to find something to support MJD's Vland survival story. A plausible explanation makes for a better story. And a good story is what I want.

 

[mike wightman]

Perhaps Vland's survival is thanks to the Ancient TL30 1000t AI war machine still burried deep underground

.

No, I'm not making this up. It is mentioned in DGP's Vilani and Vargr.

 

[TheDS]

For a moment there, I thought Sigg had come up with the most plausible theory! Then I realized the problem.

The Vilani had to wait till those war machines ran down before they could crawl out of their caves. What happened to those machines? They either self-destructed, or were otherwise destroyed by the ancient Vilani, scrapped for parts, melted for slag, whatever. At the very least, they were (and still ARE) way too high tech to ever be understood.

So we have a super-warmachine with no juice and a people who can't understand how to use it even if they found it (and they would surely be afraid to turn it back on, since it would certainly resume killing them!) so I can't see it happening.

Whatever Martin's got, it's gonna be something so obvious that we will all kick ourselves, or so ingenious that we'd never figure it out (or both). I can't fathom the third possibility, that he's a Vilani in disguise, and decided to pull a rabbit out of his hat to save them.

 

[William]

I certainly would consider the idea that Vland's computers are at least subtly different than the rest of the Imperiums. Over on the JTAS Board for the Interstellar Wars period, one of the better things to come up was the idea that the Vilani of the ZS used very different computer systems than did the Terrans. They were, essentially, highly optimized to do one thing - almost like an electronic analog computer. This could even be as a response to the Ancient's war machines and computer systems.

The Terrans, instead, had highly flexable "universal" computers. This was considered to be a good candidate for one of the many reasons that the TC was able defeat the ZS.

Fast forward a couple of kiloyears and I find it very easy to believe that the Vilani still maintain traditional computer systems in many places. The transponders, mentioned of above, are a good candidate for one of these old style nearly analog systems that Virus would have an extreamly difficult time infecting or using.

Just a few thoughts.

William