Combat Rules....my thoughts after one read through....

[yamsi3467]

I have just read the personal combat rules, and, I have to say, I really don't see the problems that others are seeing on the face of it. When I came to that conclusion, I asked myself why am I not seeing these glaring errors?

I think that it is because I do not have a real world background in combat. I think some of the people here have a deep knowledge base in combat and weapons (perhaps from military experience or hunting or recreational shooting, etc). They know the way things work in the real world, and think they should work that way in the game. That is understandable.

However, this is a gaming system. One, it has to be playable. Two, it has to be fun. In the real world, people use weapons simultaneously and things happen often in a fluid motion. In a game, you have to have some type of turns (who attacks first, etc). I think that some real life components have to give way to playability.

Three, I think that Traveller wants combat to be a "last resort, back to the wall" kind of thing. That's how I play anyway. If at all possible, I avoid combat. (I play many of my video games this way as well.)

That's my take. Peace out.

Yamsi

 

[David Johansen]

I think some people are looking very hard for things to complain about.

Personally combat is still pretty unclear in a number of places. I'd prefer a concrete system to an abstract one. I've yet to see an abstract combat system that didn't become more complex than simply using actual ranges and movement rates. Still, that's opinion and preference rather than an "unplayable, broken system."

One thing that's pretty unclear is how damage types interact with each other. How bullet, penetrate, blast, blow, and frag are different enough from each other to require different ratings. It seems they don't stack but it makes bullet-4 penetrate-2 (the ACR IRRC) a very odd duck as the bullet has a better chance of penetrating than the penetration but otherwise they do the same thing. Really the penetrate only gives a back up roll if the bullet damage comes in low. It also doesn't compare to the armor examples very well.

Which isn't the same as not working as written but does make one wonder why they bothered with damage types in the first place.

The 10+ kills an npc thing is also weird though mook rules usually are. Given how low some of the base line weapon ratings are it makes one wonder if anyone ever died in a war prior to 1900. Personally it's a handy trick for the gm that can be used or ignored as needed but I must confess confusion at the need for the rule.

 

[Licheking]

I have run combat with the system almost as written, with a few changes to explain the different damage types and to make combat a bit more detailed.

I use the old MT 6 second combat round, and use the range bands as absolute values and movement rates based in meters instead of range bands which works well and uses the system as it is. The changes are very minimal.

 

[JFGarber]

Would you care to post an example, with many, many details, all the way through medical care for the survivors?

 

[Shonner]

The 10+ kills an npc thing is also weird though mook rules usually are. Given how low some of the base line weapon ratings are it makes one wonder if anyone ever died in a war prior to 1900. Personally it's a handy trick for the gm that can be used or ignored as needed but I must confess confusion at the need for the rule.

Often times, a book will revise a rule, but not update the examples to reflect that new rule. I don't remember if pistols did 1D6+5 damage, or something stronger than they do now, during the beta.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Way to go Yamsi3467. Totally agree.

Totally agree on that too David, it's almost as though a lot of Travellers have great difficulty in moving from there well known systems, even contemplating doing things they must have established over the years differently scares them.

Personally I feel that T5 represents an excellent game for those who are not afraid of reading and having a go. For those that need there games like the classic D&D red box set, Traveller is not for them. It's a thinking RPG persons game. If putting depth into a character, creating starships, working out how to get around the mind bending idea of space travel on a massive scale isn't your thing, then simply put, Traveller is not for you. Having said that, there's no reason why anyone can not do anything at all they want with there game. Traveller allows for that and you just use as much or as little of the system as you like. No where does it say that you must do this, it's a guide.
A fine one at that. The main aim is ROLE playing. So many dice roles and mechanics can be completely skipped just be straight up role playing. To me, the dice is a last resort and if the mechanics get in the way, then you as the referee simply have to adapt them as is required. Mention the issue later and how it was resolved to help others later maybe.

The combat system seems pretty straight forward however I will say that a detailed equipment guide, complete with rounds per clip and the ammo defined for the weapon etc would be a very good idea as a lot of Travellers really do like the exact details. (It avoids the never ending supply of bullets trigger happy players).

 

[Supplement Four]

It's a thinking RPG persons game. If putting depth into a character, creating starships, working out how to get around the mind bending idea of space travel on a massive scale isn't your thing, then simply put, Traveller is not for you. Having said that, there's no reason why anyone can not do anything at all they want with there game. Traveller allows for that and you just use as much or as little of the system as you like. No where does it say that you must do this, it's a guide.

This can be said of any set of rules. Pick your game of choice. Use the rules as suggestion--a rule of thumb. And, make up the rest as you go.

What people are upset about, and the what you hear them voicing, are the broken parts of T5. They'd like to see rules that make sense.

For example....

-- In T5, you cannot kill an NPC (or even hurt an NPC), using the NPC damage rule. It takes 10+ points to take out an NPC, yet pistols do 1-6 damage.

-- A gunshot wound from a pistol does 1D damage, but a cut from a sword does 2D damage every round.

-- Using the T5 Opposed throw for Brawling Combat, a character is more likely to win a fight the more opponents he fights at one time!

-- Spectacular Success gets easier to achieve the harder the task!

-- Combat rounds are considered about a minute long (though some can be much shorter and others much longer), yet a character can only fire at one target at a time.

-- If you have a single shot weapon, like a rifle or a semi-automatic pistol, you cannot move and fire in the same combat round (remember--we're talking about one minute combat rounds). But, if you've got a weapon capable of burst fire or auto fire, then you can move and fire in that same combat round.

-- There's no ammo tracking! Characters always have enough ammo to fire their weapons, and that weight is not considered against a character's load. It's Ref fiat when characters run out of ammo.

-- According to the definition on page 214, there is no difference in AutoFire and SnapFire. Both require weapons capable of burst or full auto fire. Yet, SnapFire is both harder to achieve (+2D to difficulty vs +1D for AutoFire) and returns poorer results (+1D damage vs. +2D for AutoFire). So...why in the world would anyone ever use SnapFire? They'd always use AutoFire, right? Especially since ammo isn't tracked.





That's just some of the broken and problem areas of the game, and all of that is just from the combat section of the game!

Yes, I think the people who have complained about T5 are quite justified.

 

[mechascorpio]

Totally agree on that too David, it's almost as though a lot of Travellers have great difficulty in moving from there well known systems, even contemplating doing things they must have established over the years differently scares them.

Personally I feel that T5 represents an excellent game for those who are not afraid of reading and having a go. For those that need there games like the classic D&D red box set, Traveller is not for them. It's a thinking RPG persons game. If putting depth into a character, creating starships, working out how to get around the mind bending idea of space travel on a massive scale isn't your thing, then simply put, Traveller is not for you.

Summary: Those who don't think T5 is the best SFRPG of all time are too stupid and scared to appreciate it. T5 is the only real version of Traveller now for real Traveller players. Also, "role playing, not roll playing, ha!"

There are just so many disrespectful strawmen here, but TPTB would never call it out because it's "pro T5". Imagine the statement above had it been posted, for instance, in the Mongoose Traveller section, and imagine the new rules for infractions that would be created on the fly as a result.

 

[pendragonman]

This can be said of any set of rules. Pick your game of choice. Use the rules as suggestion--a rule of thumb. And, make up the rest as you go.

What people are upset about, and the what you hear them voicing, are the broken parts of T5. They'd like to see rules that make sense.

For example....

-- In T5, you cannot kill an NPC (or even hurt an NPC), using the NPC damage rule. It takes 10+ points to take out an NPC, yet pistols do 1-6 damage.

-- A gunshot wound from a pistol does 1D damage, but a cut from a sword does 2D damage every round.

-- Using the T5 Opposed throw for Brawling Combat, a character is more likely to win a fight the more opponents he fights at one time!

-- Spectacular Success gets easier to achieve the harder the task!

-- Combat rounds are considered about a minute long (though some can be much shorter and others much longer), yet a character can only fire at one target at a time.

-- If you have a single shot weapon, like a rifle or a semi-automatic pistol, you cannot move and fire in the same combat round (remember--we're talking about one minute combat rounds). But, if you've got a weapon capable of burst fire or auto fire, then you can move and fire in that same combat round.

-- There's no ammo tracking! Characters always have enough ammo to fire their weapons, and that weight is not considered against a character's load. It's Ref fiat when characters run out of ammo.

-- According to the definition on page 214, there is no difference in AutoFire and SnapFire. Both require weapons capable of burst or full auto fire. Yet, SnapFire is both harder to achieve (+2D to difficulty vs +1D for AutoFire) and returns poorer results (+1D damage vs. +2D for AutoFire). So...why in the world would anyone ever use SnapFire? They'd always use AutoFire, right? Especially since ammo isn't tracked.





That's just some of the broken and problem areas of the game, and all of that is just from the combat section of the game!

Yes, I think the people who have complained about T5 are quite justified.

S4, not all pistols do 1 die. Body pistols do, or pistols that have been early staged. Please look at Rob's ported over CT weapons and armor before you made broad statements like "pistols do 1d6" Not all pistols do.

In fact, Code Name Damage and Hits Mass R Bu Cost
----------- -------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- ----- - -- --------
StHP-6 Std Heavy Pistol-6 (3) Bullet-3 1.43 3 3 300

Code : StHP-6
Name : Std Heavy Pistol-6
Range : 3
Mass : 1.43
Burden: 3
Damage: (3D) Bullet-3
Cost : 300


Code Name Damage and Hits Mass R Bu Cost
----------- ------------------------- -------------------- ----- - -- --------
StHP-6 Pistol (3) Bullet-3 1.43 3 3 300

and
Code Name Damage and Hits Mass R Bu Cost
----------- -------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- ----- - -- --------
StHR-5 Std Heavy Revolver-5 (3) Bullet-3 1.62 3 3 200

Code : StHR-5
Name : Std Heavy Revolver-5
Range : 3
Mass : 1.62
Burden: 3
Damage: (3D) Bullet-3
Cost : 200


Code Name Damage and Hits Mass R Bu Cost
----------- ------------------------- -------------------- ----- - -- --------
StHR-5 Revolver (3) Bullet-3 1.62 3 3 200


Seem to do 3 dice each, one a pistol and one a revolver, the only non regular thing about them is that they are Heavy, meaning instead of 38 cal they might be 45's. Please note neither are magnums, but magnums come out the same.

In fact, here is just a regular one to show you it isn't the Heavy mod making them more than one die:

Code Name Damage and Hits Mass R Bu Cost
----------- -------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- ----- - -- --------
StP-6 Std Pistol-6 (2) Bullet-2 1.1 2 0 150

Code : StP-6
Name : Std Pistol-6
Range : 2
Mass : 1.1
Burden: 0
Damage: (2D) Bullet-2
Cost : 150


Code Name Damage and Hits Mass R Bu Cost
----------- ------------------------- -------------------- ----- - -- --------
StP-6 Pistol (2) Bullet-2 1.1 2 0 150


See? A nice, standard 2d6. Not every weapon from every age of humanity can be made with the makers. But that can be said of any gamesystem.

It is your opinion that the rules are broken. Your opinion is not everyone's.

 

[HG_B]

Summary: Those who don't think T5 is the best SFRPG of all time are too stupid and scared to appreciate it. T5 is the only real version of Traveller now for real Traveller players. Also, "role playing, not roll playing, ha!"

Well, when you don't have a good argument, go for character assassination?

 

[mechascorpio]

Well, when you don't have a good argument, go for character assassination?

It's not so much "assassination" as a recurring pattern of delegitimizing both the person and opinion of those here who expected more from T5. Much like:

Just because someone isn't immediately happy with the combat system because they can't work it out or put in a few values for themselves is most definitely another very good reason not to write it off and in fact, to ignore them

Now if you'll excuse me, I must return to my work on Traveller: The Candyland Edition and Supplement 1: Snakes & Ladders through the Vargr Extents.

 

[pendragonman]

It's not so much "assassination" as a recurring pattern of delegitimizing both the person and opinion of those here who expected more from T5. Much like:



Now if you'll excuse me, I must return to my work on Traveller: The Candyland Edition and Supplement 1: Snakes & Ladders through the Vargr Extents.

Actually, Snakes and Ladders thru the Vargr Extents sounds like a good title to an adventure....

 

[Supplement Four]

S4, not all pistols do 1 die. Body pistols do, or pistols that have been early staged.

No, it's not just body pistols. And, instead of looking at Rob's creations, I'm looking at the rules that T5 presents in GunMaker and the GunMaker samples on page 240.

The Pistol-5 does 1D damage.

The Revolver-4 does 1D damage.

The Carbine-5 does 1D damage.

All of these weapons cannot kill an NPC by the T5 rules. A sword does more damage than all of these weapons.

If you make a standard, everyday revolver using GunMaker, with no frills, special ammo, or anything like that, you end up with a weapon that does 1D damage.

So a standard, six shot, .32 cal. revolver does 1D damage, which is not enough to kill an NPC.

It is your opinion that the rules are broken. Your opinion is not everyone's.

I'm using facts from the game to back up my comments.

So, we can agree that some weapons from T5 do 1D damage, right?

Let's take the TL 5 Carbine shown on page 240. It says that weapon does Bullet-1 damage.

We're talking about a carbine equivalent to those used in WWII, and this weapon cannot kill an unarmored NPC no matter how many times you hit him.

You think that it's only my opinion that rule is broken?

Or, really, any of the other broken combat rules that I mention in the above post?

 

[Murdoc]

I ran into a similar problem in my first T5 game the other day. PC wanted to hit NPC with his fists, dmg=C1, so what, 7 points? (Funny how it's always the same, but that's another issue.) So I quickly realized I couldn't use the 10 point NPC rule, or he'd never lose. So, what I did was just use the normal rule of dmg to characteristics (since the other one is an optional rule). Of course, I didn't want to roll up all his stats and then randomly pick one, so I just rolled one random stat and did damage to that. Came up a 4, guy's knocked out. I imagine you could easily do the same with 1d6 guns, even though it does seem like they are still underpowered, at least you can beat them, eventually. So this one I don't see as a big problem. All the other stuff you mentioned I agree with however.

 

[RobM]

S4, not all pistols do 1 die. Body pistols do, or pistols that have been early staged. Please look at Rob's ported over CT weapons and armor before you made broad statements like "pistols do 1d6"

It is your opinion that the rules are broken. Your opinion is not everyone's.

Body pistols do 3d6 damage in CT. I don't think all the rules are broken however personal combat doesn't seem to be well thought out and too abstract. I would need to houserule too much to make it work for me, at the moment. That being said, combat in traveller has always been an abstract affair with people turning to Snapshot, AHL or Striker to make up for it.

The size of the book doesn't bother me. The rules for CT and MgT are spread out over thousands of pages of supplements and adventures, a lot of these concepts are included in T5, ex. the world generation system.

My opinion on the rules is
The good:
Chapter layout is good
Many rules that were scattered among different suplements are included
Ship band combat
The scale system (range, size, sound)
The personals system
Character Generation
All the different maker systems
The task system (I like it)
Skill system
QREBS

The bad:
Clunky editing
Didn't use spell check
Personal combat
Weapon Maker (ammo issues, standard pistol does damage of a bb gun)
How Things Work, chapter especially jump drive
Armor
Damage types

That just off the top of my head. Right now I'm vested in MgT but look forward to running a T5 campaign down the road when the errata is finished.

BTW anyone read Mongoose High Guard character generation? That would be on par with T5's edditing issues.

 

[pendragonman]

Body pistols do 3d6 damage in CT. I don't think all the rules are broken however personal combat doesn't seem to be well thought out and too abstract. I would need to houserule too much to make it work for me, at the moment. That being said, combat in traveller has always been an abstract affair with people turning to Snapshot, AHL or Striker to make up for it.

...snip

Body pistols don't do 3d in CT. I just checked my 2nd edition book. Please provide a reference.Edit: P17 says 2D, the chart at the back says 3D? Seems even CT has erratta...

S4-those weapons on that list are "early" staged. I know, that is not true in real life, but try using the makers yourself and see what you get instead of that list. If you don't have the ruleset (can't remember) Rob has an excellent online program to do the work for you.

Again, not all firearms do 1D6, to maintain otherwise is being disingenuous.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Kill Happy Much?

No, it's not just body pistols. And, instead of looking at Rob's creations, I'm looking at the rules that T5 presents in GunMaker and the GunMaker samples on page 240.

The Pistol-5 does 1D damage.

The Revolver-4 does 1D damage.

The Carbine-5 does 1D damage.

All of these weapons cannot kill an NPC by the T5 rules. A sword does more damage than all of these weapons.

If you make a standard, everyday revolver using GunMaker, with no frills, special ammo, or anything like that, you end up with a weapon that does 1D damage.

So a standard, six shot, .32 cal. revolver does 1D damage, which is not enough to kill an NPC.




I'm using facts from the game to back up my comments.

So, we can agree that some weapons from T5 do 1D damage, right?

Let's take the TL 5 Carbine shown on page 240. It says that weapon does Bullet-1 damage.

We're talking about a carbine equivalent to those used in WWII, and this weapon cannot kill an unarmored NPC no matter how many times you hit him.

You think that it's only my opinion that rule is broken?

Or, really, any of the other broken combat rules that I mention in the above post?

So, the rules are broken because it may (depending on the weapon) take more than a single round of combat to kill a NPC. Why so adamant about having NPCs killed in one round? What is the problem with a fight that requires more than a round for normal people (not D&D heroes) to complete? I mean I have played tons of games and I don't recall that we ever mashed anyone ever in one round of combat. So, why this fascination with one combat round NPC drops? Also, has occurred to you that you might not need to kill them, just keep them out of the fight or just incapciate them?

So, again let me say that I don't have a problem with adversity and losing for player/characters. That, kids, is part of the ancient and honorable path of the Hero's Quest. In fact, hardship, pain, and loss are major parts of the Hero's Quest and if you don't experience them at least sometimes then you are just living and not questing. But that is just me and Joseph Campbell these days I guess.

 

[pendragonman]

No, it's not just body pistols. And, instead of looking at Rob's creations, I'm looking at the rules that T5 presents in GunMaker and the GunMaker samples on page 240.

The Pistol-5 does 1D damage.

The Revolver-4 does 1D damage.

The Carbine-5 does 1D damage.

All of these weapons cannot kill an NPC by the T5 rules. A sword does more damage than all of these weapons.

If you make a standard, everyday revolver using GunMaker, with no frills, special ammo, or anything like that, you end up with a weapon that does 1D damage.




So a standard, six shot, .32 cal. revolver does 1D damage, which is not enough to kill an NPC.




I'm using facts from the game to back up my comments.

So, we can agree that some weapons from T5 do 1D damage, right?

Let's take the TL 5 Carbine shown on page 240. It says that weapon does Bullet-1 damage.

We're talking about a carbine equivalent to those used in WWII, and this weapon cannot kill an unarmored NPC no matter how many times you hit him.

You think that it's only my opinion that rule is broken?

Or, really, any of the other broken combat rules that I mention in the above post?

Could it be that instead of rules being broken, that the person who worked up the presets perhaps used an early version of gunmaker, and the results never updated? Is that also possible?

I can find proof to support any opinion of mine I like, solid support that everyone will say "yes, that is what it says" just like you proof that the rules are broken. Doesn't mean the position isn't just my opinion.

Also doesn't mean that some person didn't make an error somewhere in the demo materials either.

 

[Hesperos]

So, the rules are broken because it may (depending on the weapon) take more than a single round of combat to kill a NPC. Why so adamant about having NPCs killed in one round?

I believe the issue at hand is page 222:

Non-Player Character Injury = Out-Of-Action (ignore injury 9 or less)

What Supplement 4 is bringing up is, as written, a character can shoot an NPC in the head with a 1D firearm as much as s/he wants and nothing will be accomplished. Ever. Or, as Murdoc pointed out, a fist that does 7 damage will never take an NPC out of action without a house rule.

A solution, though another house rule, would be NPCs have up to 10 "hit points" and the damage stacks like any other damage. Supplement 4 is saying that combat requires a house rule in order to work as written.

 

[pendragonman]

So, the rules are broken because it may (depending on the weapon) take more than a single round of combat to kill a NPC. Why so adamant about having NPCs killed in one round? What is the problem with a fight that requires more than a round for normal people (not D&D heroes) to complete? I mean I have played tons of games and I don't recall that we ever mashed anyone ever in one round of combat. So, why this fascination with one combat round NPC drops? Also, has occurred to you that you might not need to kill them, just keep them out of the fight or just incapciate them?

So, again let me say that I don't have a problem with adversity and losing for player/characters. That, kids, is part of the ancient and honorable path of the Hero's Quest. In fact, hardship, pain, and loss are major parts of the Hero's Quest and if you don't experience them at least sometimes then you are just living and not questing. But that is just me and Joseph Campbell these days I guess.

Mags, the rule he refers to here has any NPC damage less than ten completely ignored, so damage doesn't accumulate round to round.

It a good rule of thumb to keep GM bookwork lite, but it is also the lynchpin in his "combat is broken" opinion since there is a list of example weapons that only does 1D of damage.