Colony and outpost governments

[Carlobrand]

Quite a few colonies were founded by groups who raised the money by selling everything and fleeing in barely sail-worthy ships with dubiously adequate quantities provisions of even less trustworthy quality.

Others were essentially dumping grounds for undesirables - literally taking religiously or politically undesired segments (like homeless and criminals, or in the case of Liberia, former slaves), and shipping them off with token provisions.

I recall few if any colonies founded over the specific objection of the home government. The point, if incompletely stated, was that the home government remains a brake on what can or can't occur within territory it lays claim to - at least so long as the home government retains the will and resources to maintain oversight.

Pournelle's milieu paints a picture of individuals leaving Earth to found their own utopian societies only to have Earth's government force them to accept large numbers of undesirables. Some historical colonies faced similar issues: once they'd blazed the trail, they found themselves attracting folk who were not exactly of the same caliber as the founding group, and they faced a certain degree of meddling from the home government. Conversely, as the founding settlements grew stable and people began moving out from those, secondary settlements would evolve that were less controlled by both home government and founding settlement, sometimes creating problems for both the founding settlement and the home government.

Traveller presents some unique challenges in that much depends on the quality of the colony world and the nature of the home government. If it is sufficiently habitable, people can settle the hinterlands with little effort and effectively place themselves beyond the scope of the home government or founding colony - but technology can make it very difficult to completely escape the eyes and ears of a sufficiently intrusive and well-equipped authority. If it is not easily habitable, the cost of creating habitat can make it difficult to grow beyond the reach of the home government's overseers, but the cost of delivering and sheltering overseers and their guards may preclude effective oversight. Then there are the influences of megacorporations and other external powers to consider. The situational factors are diverse enough that it's difficult to envision a hard-and-fast rule that could cover all potential variables with any degree of verisimilitude; a random roll and some well thought out after-the-fact rationalization tend to be the simplest solution.

I'm also frankly not entirely clear on the authority of a main government with respect to all the little rocks and pebbles within its system. The UPP reflects the dominant world in a system and by extension implies that the dominant world is, well, dominant in terms of interaction with other systems and the Imperial government, but that's not the same as saying the dominant world has authority to extend its jurisdiction to every nook and cranny in the system. It's one thing to suggest a world has authority over its citizens and corporate "persons" who settle a nearby moon; it's quite another to suggest its jurisdiction extends to a distant mining colony founded with and defended by the resources of some megacorporation or other foreign interest.

On the one hand, an Imperium with thousands of years experience in the founding and settlement of colonies is not likely to embrace customs that put homeworlds and colonies in the same system on an inevitable course for eventual violent conflict. On the other hand, the megacorporations and the Imperial economy as a whole have a powerful interest in limiting the jurisdiction of planetary governments so that exploration and exploitation of potential mineral resources in the distant reaches of a system can be conducted without undue restrictions from planetary governments that may not have the wherewithal or technological means to exploit those resources themselves or to assert their political will beyond their own orbit.

I'm curious what examples we have that might speak to the issue.

 

[aramis]

I recall few if any colonies founded over the specific objection of the home government. The point, if incompletely stated, was that the home government remains a brake on what can or can't occur within territory it lays claim to - at least so long as the home government retains the will and resources to maintain oversight. .

Many were founded without permission - tho' few with ignorance of the attempt by the parent nation.

Plymouth Colony was charted for a single presence - but not all those bound for Plymouth landed in the intended place, and other groups, some totally unchartered, had to be forced into the empire.

The North American Desert West in the 1850's was officially unsettled... Deseret was forcibly coopted back into the United States. Similar groups of religious extremists sought isolation in various off-shore islands in Alaska as recently as the 1980's; almost all of them failed within a couple years. (THe 1970's and 80's attempts resulted in quiet evictions by state and federal law enforcement.)

Portions of Canada were settled by citizens of the US fleeing into marginal areas of western Canada. Almost all of them found that this resulted in starvation... but it didn't stop people from trying anyway.

As recently as the last 10 years, people have made illegal homestead attempts in the Alaskan interior (look up "Papa Pilgrim" for an example). Once found, they're usually removed by force, and often as not, arrested for the very behaviors which made them want to be off the grid.

Illegal colonies tend to be fringe affairs, not "far and away" ones. Go to the frontier, and don't stop at the destination, but one or two good valleys away. ANd they usually end up reincorporated by force. US history is rife with such groups. Deseret is the most visible, but not the only one. In Alaska, many of the Russian settlements were unchartered - giving Russian Alaska bodies of almost every kind of Russian religious minority of the 1830's. Only a handful were actually permited - most were not. (The Tsar didn't WANT a North American colonial presence - it would be as troublesome as the Ukrainians, and further from the army - but allowed enough to exploit the desired resources. Russian people, however, went anyway.)

And then, of course, there are the recent native strandings. Teens sentenced to live on isolated islands for up to several years, and checked upon monthly, but not actually provided for.

 

[Drakon]

How Strange is my colony?

This is a fasinating thread, that has brought up a lot of good questions that I have been trying to answer with respect to Lemish, for purely selfish reasons.

T5 introduced me to the [HASS] concept, I am not sure if this is new to T5, and not completely sure how to interpret, yet, but there are clues in there to answer some questions.

[HASS] stands for Homogenity, Acceptance, Strangeness, and Symbols. For Lemish, it is [988F](from Travellermap). Homogenity and Acceptance are pretty easy to understand, and Lemishers is highly in "agreement on the fundamentals of society" things like "basic <sophant> rights, religion and methods of interaction" The high acceptance is partly necessitated by the fact Lemish is a subsector capital, but Lemishians are pretty easy going with outsiders regardless.

I am not really sure how to interpret a Strangeness of 8. That sounds like Lemishites are pretty weird from the interstellar norm. Farmers on a small world with a dense, tainted atmosphere, what makes them so strange? Maintaining a law level of C (12) with a civil service bureaucracy, which does not sound too amish-y. Tech level C is a bit high for the amish hypothesis as well.

Because Lemish's population is only 1 million souls, that indicates it is a colony. (pg 436)Because she is in the Corridor sector between Deneb and Vland, and houses a Naval Base it seems highly likely she was established to ensure the connection between the two regions of the Imperium. So whatever makes the settlers of Lemish so weird, it is not detrimentally weird to the Imperium at large. One would not allow a potentially hostile culture to establish itself on the coreward flanks of a major communication and supply line.

So, whatever weirdness the "Lems" possess, it has to be relatively harmless and not lead to xenophobia. It has to be something where the populace has little privacy, but it seems little problem. What cultural, economic or philosophical weirdness could it be?

 

[Carlobrand]

...Plymouth Colony was charted for a single presence - but not all those bound for Plymouth landed in the intended place, and other groups, some totally unchartered, had to be forced into the empire.
...

I don't recall unchartered groups, but I only know the broad picture, and history is replete with little but vital details that get overlooked in the broad accounts. Which leads back to...

...As recently as the last 10 years, people have made illegal homestead attempts in the Alaskan interior (look up "Papa Pilgrim" for an example). Once found, they're usually removed by force, ...

...and the question of the extent of authority of the planetary government over other bodies in the system. Is the planetary government assumed to hold sovereignty over all bodies under the influence of that system's star, or only over those bodies at which it maintains a presence, or is it a case-by-case negotiation when one is admitted? Anything in canon pointing in one direction or another? I don't recall anything that spoke to the issue, and it strikes me that a world of billions with an active space program would be handled differently than a world of a few thousand without even the tech to maintain its own satellites.

 

[rancke]

Many were founded without permission - tho' few with ignorance of the attempt by the parent nation.

That's strange, Wil. I have a somewhat fuzzy memory of a discussion not too many months ago where someone claimed that almost all historical colony ventures were government-sanctioned and that those that weren't were apt to be treated as outlaws. And my memory tells me that it was probably-possibly-maybe you who said it. Obviously I'm mistaken in that, but someone made that claim.


Hans

 

[rancke]

...and the question of the extent of authority of the planetary government over other bodies in the system. Is the planetary government assumed to hold sovereignty over all bodies under the influence of that system's star, or only over those bodies at which it maintains a presence, or is it a case-by-case negotiation when one is admitted?

The last option if I have my way. Anything that allows the rules to be one way in one place and another way in another place is a boon to referees and other worldbuilders.

Anything in canon pointing in one direction or another?

The Imperium is supposed to have 11,000 member worlds and has only 9,000 systems. Clearly some systems must have more than one member world.

I don't recall anything that spoke to the issue, and it strikes me that a world of billions with an active space program would be handled differently than a world of a few thousand without even the tech to maintain its own satellites.

Agreed, but I also think the handling should be allowed to be different from one duchy to another. In one the non-mainworld bits may be held in trust for the mainworld against the day it becomes able to exploit them. In another the Imperium may claim ownership of everything other than the mainworld and license off exploitation rights to the highest bidder.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

The Imperium is supposed to have 11,000 member worlds and has only 9,000 systems. Clearly some systems must have more than one member world.

Or some systems that are no more part of the Imperium (say the Solomany Sphere) are still accounted for into those 11000 worlds (I've never counted them, so I don't know if the numbers would match).

 

[rancke]

Or some systems that are no more part of the Imperium (say the Solomany Sphere) are still accounted for into those 11000 worlds (I've never counted them, so I don't know if the numbers would match).

I don't know if the figures are accurate, but they do count more than one member world in some systems. "The Imperium contains 11,197 member worlds within its borders, or 8,976 individual systems." [TD10:42]

Also, an example mentions that Luna in the Terra system counts as a separate world. The definition is that if a world in a system has a population level up to 3 levels less than the mainworld, that world is counted as a separate member worls (e.g. Terra has a PL of 10; Luna has one of 7).


Hans

 

[Drakon]

...and the question of the extent of authority of the planetary government over other bodies in the system. Is the planetary government assumed to hold sovereignty over all bodies under the influence of that system's star, or only over those bodies at which it maintains a presence, or is it a case-by-case negotiation when one is admitted?

More likely than not it will be on a case by case basis, modified by particular government type.

And there is a difference between having sovereignty over a rock in a system and being able to do anything about a particular small colony. It could be more of a hassle to displace some colony of weirdos, then to let Darwin and nature take its course.

Besides as long as the new colonist stay on their rock, there is little reason for the Imperium to interfere.

 

[aramis]

That's strange, Wil. I have a somewhat fuzzy memory of a discussion not too many months ago where someone claimed that almost all historical colony ventures were government-sanctioned and that those that weren't were apt to be treated as outlaws. And my memory tells me that it was probably-possibly-maybe you who said it. Obviously I'm mistaken in that, but someone made that claim.


Hans

Almost all such ARE treated as outlaws - eventually. The negative press of eradicating illicit colonies is often far too expensive a price. And the cost of shipping control...

Or, as with the case of the initial US settlement of the midwest - due to extant treaties, settlers could not be legally endorsed. Didn't mean that the "5 civilized tribes" were able to evict the white men, nor did the US defend them nor punish them - it politely ignored them. Leading to indian wars. Repeat 50 years later further west, and 20 years after that...

Or Hawaii - US merchants "colonized" Hawaii in violation of both Hawaiian Royal government, UK Crown protectorate, and US Government decrees. And basically overthrew the Hawaiian Royalty, and got the local government to apply to become a state.

Apathy matters a lot.

 

[Carlobrand]

...Also, an example mentions that Luna in the Terra system counts as a separate world. ...

Oooh, the West Virginia precedent! :devil:

...Or Hawaii - US merchants "colonized" Hawaii in violation of both Hawaiian Royal government, UK Crown protectorate, and US Government decrees. And basically overthrew the Hawaiian Royalty, and got the local government to apply to become a state. ...

Your Native American example works better. I don't think the overthrow of an internationally recognized government counts as colonization. Merchants and planters ostensibly legally present under the jurisdiction of the Hawaiian government acted with support of U.S. troops to seize the seat of Hawaiian government and overthrow the monarchy. That's a coup.

The coup itself came on the heels of a constitution imposed by those same parties that limited the power of the monarchy and established suffrage restrictions favorable to Euro-Americans; when a new ruler decided to overturn that constitution and draft a new one that restored the monarchy's power and gave more representation to the natives, the merchants and planters decided to overthrow the monarchy and take full control of the government.

 

[rancke]

We're talking about type 6 governments; appointed by outsiders. I should think that would rule out anarchies for a start. If it's an autocracy, the autocrat is appointed by the owner. If it's an oligarchy, the oligarchs are apponited by the owner. If it's a bureaucracy, the bureaucrats are appointed by the owner. If it's a democratic anything, the election results are ratified by the owner. If it's a hereditary anything, the inheritors can be set aside by the owner.

What I'm looking for here is inspiration for a world generation subtable. OK, it's a type 6 government. That's a given. But what kind of type 6 government? [rolls a 2 with two dice] A-hah! That's a pretty rare form of type 6 government!


Hans

 

[MCEvans]

-snip -
Deseret was forcibly coopted back into the United States.
-snip-

Are you referring to Utah? Because to my understanding of both Utah & LDS history this is not the case.

 

[Selandia]

We're talking about type 6 governments; appointed by outsiders. I should think that would rule out anarchies for a start. If it's an autocracy, the autocrat is appointed by the owner. If it's an oligarchy, the oligarchs are apponited by the owner. If it's a bureaucracy, the bureaucrats are appointed by the owner. If it's a democratic anything, the election results are ratified by the owner. If it's a hereditary anything, the inheritors can be set aside by the owner.

What I'm looking for here is inspiration for a world generation subtable. OK, it's a type 6 government. That's a given. But what kind of type 6 government? [rolls a 2 with two dice] A-hah! That's a pretty rare form of type 6 government!


Hans

May be you should include a "autonomy margin" (or whatever term suit you) for how heavy is the hand of the controlling power. This would reflect the autonomy of the local power. The local assembly/Pasha/chief administrator/ could go to the equiv of municipal level (garbages pick-up) or to the level of Canada prior to the Westminster 1931 agreement ( anything short of foreign affairs and amending its Constitution)

have fun

Selandia

 

[Hal]

Hi Hans and others,
For what it is worth, it appears that my rumblings on colony and outpost worlds at GURPSNET was of a parallel nature here. I originally came to this section of CotI because I wanted to discuss ideas regarding the nature of "liners" and scheduled ships having to go through worlds that have a really LOW population value. I'm glad I did - or I'd have missed THIS thread!

In any event, bear in mind that my "bias" is mostly GURPS oriented, please accept that my thoughts might not dovetail sufficiently to be of value to you.

That having been said - GURPS SPACE for GURPS 4th edition, has this thing regarding resource availability as well as a hospitality index for how well life on said planet might find said world "inviting". This may be worth looking into for your definitions on why a colony may be failing. In addition, the American west, as well as a few Canadian communities of the mid to late 1800's ended up dying out primarily because their reason to exist on an economic level failed. So - perhaps resource extraction was the original purpose of establishing an outpost - and the place is turning into a ghost town once the resource needs were no longer profitable.

As for the other issues, I think sufficient comment has been made that you can include various different government types of colony worlds that differ from their originating world. What was not mentioned however, is what happens if the colony isn't settled by one nationality, but becomes the destination of multiple societies from near by? Instead of having a "balkanized" society per se, you may have a colony that has decided to embrace a fusion of cultural standards from multiple cultures. For instance, what if you had a world where the general culture was say, Germanic in nature fused with something that was Polynesian? The language of said culture would begin to borrow words from each other's language. Holidays would become multi-cultural. As people begin to live under the fused culture (ie they're born second and third generation into this evolving culture), they begin to solidify what will eventually become a new and unique culture that is unlike either of the parent cultures that originally spawned it. It is one reason why I am treating "member worlds" as having a cultural background that is different than colonies and outposts - which I won't require that players have the advantage for their characters (I did say I was using GURPS right?)

But you've touched on something I think needs to be brought to the fore - which I will bring up in my next post.

 

[rancke]

That having been said - GURPS SPACE for GURPS 4th edition, has this thing regarding resource availability as well as a hospitality index for how well life on said planet might find said world "inviting". This may be worth looking into for your definitions on why a colony may be failing. In addition, the American west, as well as a few Canadian communities of the mid to late 1800's ended up dying out primarily because their reason to exist on an economic level failed. So - perhaps resource extraction was the original purpose of establishing an outpost - and the place is turning into a ghost town once the resource needs were no longer profitable.

There are at least two crucial differences between a world and a small Midwestern town: a) It's much cheaper to leave the town and go to someplace with better economic basis than it is to leave a planet and go to a different one; and b) planets usually have resources in more than one place.

As for the other issues, I think sufficient comment has been made that you can include various different government types of colony worlds that differ from their originating world.

Yes, but most comments have been too vague to be of much help. Sure, it's interesting to be told that there have been historical colonies and outposts that were run by the mother countries as democracies, but it would be more interesting to hear some examples and more useful to know how common such colonies and outposts were compared to colonies and outposts run in different manners.

What was not mentioned however, is what happens if the colony isn't settled by one nationality, but becomes the destination of multiple societies from near by? Instead of having a "balkanized" society per se, you may have a colony that has decided to embrace a fusion of cultural standards from multiple cultures.

Well, for one thing they would most likely not be type 6 governments.


Hans

 

[Hal]

The problem that I see with the descriptions of the Third Imperium and how it functions, tends to be one of "sovereignty".

For instance. Suppose you have 1,000 people who come from say, Germany - who find unclaimed land in which to extract gold from the ground. The workers are all German Citizens, and subject to the rights provided for by the German Government. Now, that mythical unclaimed land, becoming valuable unexpectedly, lies within a given reach of not one, not two, but three other "governments" who each want to claim that parcel of land for their own. Then, nations 1 and 2 sit back and watch while nation 3 attacks the German mining settlement.

What would or should be Germany's response to the attacks on its citizens?

Then we have the issue of whether or not a main world can claim other worlds within its star system, as its own, by rights of sovereignty. First of all - how does it enforce its claims? If the Iridium Throne disagrees - how does the Third Imperium enforce ITS sovereign claims? What recourse does a third party such as a megacorporation have, if it opens up a resource extraction process on a moonlet - only to have the local government boot them off, appropriate its equipment, and tell them to "shove off" at the point of a rifle?

A implies B. If you accept something as a given in the fictional "Third Imperium", then certain things will come of the original premise A that result in B. Too many people, apparently afraid of establishing A, just say "B" without realizing that A implies B, and B implies C. They just accept the B part and then say when B contradicts with H further down the line by another author "Hey, the Imperium doesn't rule territory, it rules the space between the territories". Problem with that is...

Can the Third Imperium claim that any sovereign rights end at the border of the world and space such that unless it recognizes claims that extend beyond the 10 planetary diameter limit, said claims are useless?

In the end? I think that the Third Imperium's culture is too vague to be a useful fiction. I think the Sovereign rights are too vague to be practical or useful, and that the Third Imperium as many have tried to contort into fitting the 30 years of vague pronouncements - can't exist as a rational entity. Either start making foundational assumptions from which you can build the next layer, or the fictional Third Imperial society will always be a contradiction that can't exist within the norms of human behavior.

 

[Hal]

There are at least two crucial differences between a world and a small Midwestern town: a) It's much cheaper to leave the town and go to someplace with better economic basis than it is to leave a planet and go to a different one; and b) planets usually have resources in more than one place.


Yes, but most comments have been too vague to be of much help. Sure, it's interesting to be told that there have been historical colonies and outposts that were run by the mother countries as democracies, but it would be more interesting to hear some examples and more useful to know how common such colonies and outposts were compared to colonies and outposts run in different manners.


Well, for one thing they would most likely not be type 6 governments.


Hans

Ok, so start by categorizing the various government types that have established colonies and how those colonies were governed For example:

How would you classify Australia at its beginning? It was established how? What happened when it became the dumping ground of those undesirables that England no longer wished to tolerate? At what point did Australia become its own political and cultural identity separate from England?

Second Example: What were the similarities between the 13 original Colonies of what would become the United States, and what were their differences? How do you describe them in TRAVELLER terms to the extent that the United States would one day become, one of the many balkanized governments within the entity known as "Sol"?

Also?

How does the Third Imperium treat balkanized nations on a world, where their individual populations each, are larger in population values, than many of the worlds within the Third Imperium. For instance, suppose you have a balkanized world with a pop of say, 10. You could easily have 10 nations with a pop value of 8+ and still have spare population on that world left over to form other nations. So, does that world now have 10 member governments of the Third Imperium on just that one world alone (assuming that they all petition to join the Third Imperium)?

As for ghost towns and planets? Low passage costs less than what takes to maintain a social status 2 individual for one year's cost of living. It is about half the cost of living for social status 2. If you think of what a wagon and horse costs in terms of "Monthly income" for the people living in ghost towns, and the costs are not as bad as you might think. Of course, one can WALK from a ghost town to a new location, but that's not the only type of migration involved where one needs to spend a lot of time living off the land, avoiding natural catastrophes, and not get killed by the flora, fauna, natural environments (drowning in a flash flood, prarie fire, quicksand) etc.

In the end? Ghost towns while not entirely perfect as an analogy, aren't too bad as a general analogy. And as you mention, resources exist in a lot of places. But also, bear in mind, that profitability in extraction of resources determines whether a given resource is deemed to be functional still, or abandoned for other more easily accessible resources. And while a silver mine might be within 5 miles of an old gold mine, if its profitability doesn't match the profitability of a new gold mine 1,000 miles away, it is likely that silver mine might not even be looked at with any serious intent. Granted, if it costs more to move to a new location versus the one nearer by - that comes under the heading of "profitability", which is income over time versus expenses over time (amongst other things!)

 

[rancke]

Suppose you have 1,000 people who come from say, Germany - who find unclaimed land in which to extract gold from the ground. The workers are all German Citizens, and subject to the rights provided for by the German Government. Now, that mythical unclaimed land, becoming valuable unexpectedly, lies within a given reach of not one, not two, but three other "governments" who each want to claim that parcel of land for their own. Then, nations 1 and 2 sit back and watch while nation 3 attacks the German mining settlement.

Note: The following is not all canon, although I believe it is all canon-compatible.

Assuming the world of Silvermine was previously unoccupied and not considered a possession of any member world, the Imperium would claim custody of it.

Being an Imperial possession, Imperial subjects would probably be allowed to come and go as they pleased, although this would depend on what rules the duchy government had established.

If a prospector struck it rich, he could mine the silver in secret, tell his friends, try to register a claim, or sell the location to an interstellar company. Again the details would depend on the local (duchy) regulations. The main point is that if a miner wants Imperial protection, the Imperium has to know that he's mining and agree that he's entitled to keep what he digs up.

With your 1000 miners from Planet Germany, there will be some sort of organization and some form of Ducal sanction.

What would or should be Germany's response to the attacks on its citizens?

Assuming they care (which is very likely) they can complain to the Duke or they can send some law enforcement of their own. Or some military force.

Then we have the issue of whether or not a main world can claim other worlds within its star system, as its own, by rights of sovereignty.

That would depend on the Imperial membership charter. One major factor would be the mainworld's ability to project force elsewhere in its system when it becomes a member.

First of all - how does it enforce its claims?

The same way governments always enforce their claims.

If the Iridium Throne disagrees - how does the Third Imperium enforce ITS sovereign claims?

The way a really powerful government enforces its claims.

What recourse does a third party such as a megacorporation have, if it opens up a resource extraction process on a moonlet - only to have the local government boot them off, appropriate its equipment, and tell them to "shove off" at the point of a rifle?

If the third party has any smarts at all it will have secured a charter from the Imperium in advance. Or a legally enforcable charter from the local government. Note that in your original example there is no local government.

Can the Third Imperium claim that any sovereign rights end at the border of the world and space such that unless it recognizes claims that extend beyond the 10 planetary diameter limit, said claims are useless?

The Imperium can say anything it doesn't mind expending the political capital to say. A lot of the important member worlds get antsy when the Imperium interferes with a member government on its own sovereign world, so the Imperium tends to shy away from interfereing with member governments even if they not important themselves. But by the same token the Imperium has a much freer hand with worlds that are not member worlds.


Hans

 

[rancke]

How does the Third Imperium treat balkanized nations on a world, where their individual populations each, are larger in population values, than many of the worlds within the Third Imperium. For instance, suppose you have a balkanized world with a pop of say, 10. You could easily have 10 nations with a pop value of 8+ and still have spare population on that world left over to form other nations. So, does that world now have 10 member governments of the Third Imperium on just that one world alone (assuming that they all petition to join the Third Imperium)?

A balkanized world where some of the nations are members and others are not would be in a transitional stage. The Imperium would be actively working to get all of them to sign on and encouraging some form of joint representation.

As for ghost towns and planets? Low passage costs less than what takes to maintain a social status 2 individual for one year's cost of living. It is about half the cost of living for social status 2.

If you can't make a living it's difficult to save up money.


Hans