Cleon's Hannibal

[kafka47]

As we know the founders of Traveller were very much influenced by the rise of Rome and the parallelled it with the rise of the 3I. Up to this point, I thought of Cristillian (sp) Pocket Empire was a counterpart to the Sylean Pocket Empire. However, it occured to me that this was not quite the challenge that Hannibal presented to Rome. What if there was a secret history that the 3I tried to oblterate with its later success. The story of a xenophobic alien race that during the Long Night managed to form its own Pocket Empire and turned its attention to conquest around the time of Cleon. The war being so long and bloody, that the Imperial Articles of War were repeatedly violated to supress this force...and revisionist historians proudly proclaiming Cleon as the enacter was actually Cleon the Murderer.

 

[Whipsnade]

Kafka,

The early 3I had some fairly serious opposition. IIRC there were two polities in particular of roughly the same size as the Imperium. One was the Antilles-something and I can't remember the other name.

I do know that Martin I built his palace on Sylea with defenses against jump troops. That suggest that the 3I's early opponents, or rebels within the 3I, were still a concern.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Renaissance Man]

The Chanestin Kingdom was the reason Cleon built the Imperial palace like a fortress. But they surrendered by year 2.

 

[Whipsnade]

The Chanestin Kingdom was the reason Cleon built the Imperial palace like a fortress. But they surrendered by year 2.

Renaissance Man,

Thanks! That was the other name I couldn't remember. Perusing Traveller-wiki, it seems Martin II and not Martin I built the palace with anti-jump troop architecture. That means the 3I was worried about major raids on Sylea by either outies or rebels as late as the mid-200s.

Here's a bit from Traveller-wiki that illustrates what drives me 'round the bend with canon; the lack of continuity within the same version and by the same authors. Consider these following two sentences which also happen to run consecutively:

War lasted well into Cleon's reign and was a chief reason for the defensive architecture of the first Imperial palace.

The war ends in Year 2 with the conquering of Kensi and final surrender of the Chanestin Kingdom. The Chanestin kingdom worlds were incorporated into the new Third Imperium.

So, the war lasted well into Cleon's reign and also somehow ended in Year 2.

Huh?


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

Cleon's Reign can be considered to start before the declaration of the Imperium (about IY-5 or so), IIRC from the T4 sources.

 

[Whipsnade]

Cleon's Reign can be considered to start before the declaration of the Imperium (about IY-5 or so), IIRC from the T4 sources.

Aramis,

That could work for a given value of "well into".

Cleon could be said to reign from -5 IE to 53 IE with the Third Imperium officially founded in 0 IE. Thus seven years might be "well into" a 58 year reign.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

I forget when he takes over as head of the Sylean Federation specifically, but that's truly when his reign starts; he never surrenders power. I'd put 7 years as well into any reign under 70 and over 10 years.

 

[Whipsnade]

I forget when he takes over as head of the Sylean Federation specifically, but that's truly when his reign starts; he never surrenders power. I'd put 7 years as well into any reign under 70 and over 10 years.

Aramis,

Agreed, and especially when it seems to "us" looking back from 1,105 years in the future that there were no real threats, internal or external, to Cleon's rule.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

-7 is when Cleon begins building his palace. Apart from that, I don't see anything that particularily distinguishes that years as the one where Cleon's reign "really" begins. He became Grand Duke of Sylea in -30; that might count as the start of his reign. Or perhaps Imperial historians considers a particular year as the one where Cleon gained clear ascendancy over the Federation Senate, presumably after his relevation of Fusion+ in -10 gave him a stranglehold over all Federation military procurement.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Then I'd say the -7 is the start of his reign as emperor... he's neutralized the power of the senate by then, and is acting like an emperor, even if he hasn't declared the imperium yet.

 

[rancke]

Then I'd say the -7 is the start of his reign as emperor... he's neutralized the power of the senate by then, and is acting like an emperor, even if he hasn't declared the imperium yet.

That's as good an explanation as any other.


Hans

 

[Peter Newman]

he's neutralized the power of the senate by then

I'm having a sudden picture of Cleon being played by Ian McDiarmid. Notice how the Imperium doesn't crack down on psionics until centuries later. H'mm lets see what canon says about Cleon?

"In a thirty year campaign which molded public opinion at the same time that battle starships were convincing local governments, Cleon Zhunastu committed a family industrial base and a firm foundation of industrial support to the creation of an empire that would rival the glories of past ages." CT Sup 8 p44 'The Emperor's List'

H'mm, battle starships to convince local governments to fall in line and a powerful campaign of public persuasion? Yes, Cleon is Ian McDiarmid. So, if the Third Imperium was founded by a Sith Lord, does that mean that it's arch-rivals, the Zhodani, are Jedi (at least in the upper classes)?

 

[Mark Morgan]

no the ZHO are not jedi the "sith lord" of the 3i are merely long gone like the anakin brings down the sith in number 6 bring back balance to to the force finaly

 

[aramis]

Everyone knows the Jedi must be Darryans...

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ha!

Everyone knows the Jedi must be Darryans...

Puh-lease. Everyone knows that the Hiver are the Jedi and they buy the lightsabers from the Darrians.

M. Obi-Wan: "These aren't the droids you are looking for."

Says it all, straight Hiver Manipulation.

 

[jatay3]

...and revisionist historians proudly proclaiming Cleon as the enacter was actually Cleon the Murderer.

What's to proclaim? Even in the official history Cleon was a rather nasty fellow. His only justification was that the results were good and the results of almost anything can be good.

Cleon was effectively a Palpatine with better motives and better success. He is a very good Magnificent Bastard in the TV Tropes sense, but saying he did evil things is hardly a controversy. Even the Imperium doesn't seem to bother hiding that much.

 

[Seriayne]

Just get a tour of the Imperial Palace and tour the hall of Emperors, and talk to the psuedo AI of Cleon himself? Its said that Strephon himself would sometimes walk that corridor to ask advice of the previous emperors sometimes (Sounds a LOT like the paintings of the previous headmasters of Hogwarts if you ask me.).

DG mentioned the hall being something tourists could visit, though, so I doubt -all- their secrets and personality were programmed in. Its just an interactive Disney 'Visit with Mister Lincoln' attraction on steroids.

Though I'd wonder if an emperor or empress had a second hall made with more accurate personality algorithms in place for advice or insight, or simply to argue with - "What were you THINKING, Plankwell? You're just lucky Arbellatra's stunt worked a lot better than yours!"

 

[jatay3]

Just get a tour of the Imperial Palace and tour the hall of Emperors, and talk to the psuedo AI of Cleon himself? Its said that Strephon himself would sometimes walk that corridor to ask advice of the previous emperors sometimes (Sounds a LOT like the paintings of the previous headmasters of Hogwarts if you ask me.).

DG mentioned the hall being something tourists could visit, though, so I doubt -all- their secrets and personality were programmed in. Its just an interactive Disney 'Visit with Mister Lincoln' attraction on steroids.

Though I'd wonder if an emperor or empress had a second hall made with more accurate personality algorithms in place for advice or insight, or simply to argue with - "What were you THINKING, Plankwell? You're just lucky Arbellatra's stunt worked a lot better than yours!"

That sounds like something from Eureka.