Classic Traveller '87

[robject]

Seeing the recent threads on what I (dis)like about MT and all I want for next year is Traveller '77 in a special metal box made me think about what Classic Traveller '87 would have looked like.

Chargen. I suppose it would have had the MT character generation systems, assuming they're more or less a consolidation of the advanced chargen systems from CT.

It would therefore probably have more skills than LBB1. I don't know if it would have as many as MT had, though.

Tasks. Of course it would have a variant of the DGP '86 task system or MT task system, complete with its own UTP (Universal Task Profile).

Combat. Would personal combat change? I suspect ranges would all refer to one master range band table, and DMs from them would be systematized. The effects of the combat matrices might be subsumed into the combat process in other ways.

Equipment. The expanded equipment lists of MT would certainly be there. They would use standard descriptive shorthand in an MT way. E.G. range denoted by range band, standardized effects listed, operational tasks using a UTP, and so on.

Vehicle Design, if it existed at all, would remain independent of Starship Design. Vehicle speeds would be listed in kph, although there would be a strong tendency to stick to one significant digit (i.e. 3000 kph instead of 3624.3 kph), with standardized information to indicate how much one could 'push' the engines.

Starships would use something like Don's High Guard 3 - an adaptation of HG2 to incorporate the options provided in MegaTraveller, and a conversion from combat tables to tasks.

Trade would be a variant of Merchant Prince of course. I doubt it would incorporate or absorb the Book 3-style roulette trade rules.

Technology would probably have a series of technologies which emerge, develop, and then go obsolete, spanning a few TLs. Thus lasers would grow obsolete and be replaced by a newer but mature technology.

 

[mike wightman]

Personally I would have looked at what worked best from the 77 and 81(TTB&ST)
Character gen:
definitely add the S4 careers
each career gets the same number of automatic skills
each career without commission/promotion gets two skills per term
scrap expanded character generation (but keep year by year resolution option extended to more careers - but no skills beyond basic gen)
Skills:
reduce the skill list - not all skills are equal and some are positively niche and should not occupy a skill slot in the tables - weapon skills reduce to handgun, rifle, get rid of forward observer that sort of thing.
Tasks:
I have grown to loath the DGP/MT/MgT task system - what is supposed to free the referee to allow them to make stuff up becomes an exercise in building a task library - go with skills as saving throws and make up target numbers (I will argue 'til I'm blue in the face that on 2d6 you only really need 8+ or 12+ as target numbers)
Combat:
scrap matrices and go with AHL/Striker derived penetration/damage
add weapon types from LBB4
Equipment:
agree
Vehicle design:
not needed or possible in core rules - give plenty of vehicle examples and customisation options.
Starships:
cherry pick from 77 and 81 - drive table and standard hulls from 81 (although some need fixing) and go back to power plant only needed for maneuver drive rating. Fix power plant fuel fomula and allow a power plant 0 option if no maneuver drive fitted. Fuel for power plants in two week blocks rather than four (eg 5 tons for 2 weeks rather than 10 tons for 4 weeks).
Revert to computer must be capable of running jump program rather than have a model number equal to drive rating.
Add options for some military grade stuff - armour, barbettes, PAWs, repulsors, bays, spinals, screens, rugged drives, drop tanks.
Put jump message missiles back as an option - I will decide if I want to use them.
Ship combat:
include both vector movement and range band option, but make sure everyone has something to do during ship combat.
Trade:
Stick with LBB2 - it works for PC scale speculative trade, it is not an economic simulation tool
Worlds:
Bring back the trade lane table.
Technology:
fill in some of the gaps in the TL table but leave some for referees and players to fill.

 

[hdan]

Mike, that's the revamped CT I want to see, up to and including "skills as saves". That essay was very enlightening to me.

The only point you make that I would disagree on is the Power Plant v. Jump Drive requirement. But I came into Trav with the '81 rules, so of course I feel that way, and it's not a deal breaker.

I like PP/0 though - enough of a plant to keep the lights and gravity on, but not enough to run any drives.

 

[Timerover51]

The Traveller Book came out in 1982. and Starter Traveller in 1983. By then the following supplements had been released.

Mercenary, Book 4 in 1978
Citizens of the lmperium, supplement 4 in 1978 (additional character classes)
High Guard, Book 5, came out in 1979 and was revised in 1980
Fighting Ships, Supplement 9 in 1981

None of the material in those books made it into either The Traveller Book or Starter Traveller. I am not sure if a 1987 version of Traveller would have picked up the material or not, but the option was there in 1982 and 1983 and was not taken up.

As for producing such a version, if you have the digital versions of the various rule sets and supplements available, putting together a set of rules for your personal use is quite possible. It would just take some time to handle the copy and pasting. For that matter, given Robject's relationship with Marc, I am not sure why Robject does not produce such a set of rules, and lets Marc sell them.

Moderator Note: I am not advocating violation of Marc's copyright, but pointing out what could be done for a Game Master's personal use. I suspect that many players have already done this.

 

[creativehum]

As for producing such a version, if you have the digital versions of the various rule sets and supplements available, putting together a set of rules for your personal use is quite possible...

I'm heading for such at thing, perhaps, myself.

I know I'm going to have to make some decisions about Starships, fuel, and computers at some point. And I know that the LBBs are incomplete on a couple of points of errata.

That said, while I agree with many of Mike's points, there are a few my version would vary.

For example, I like the combat matrixes as they stand in CT.

While I appreciate the benefits of the Striker/AHL tables and what they model, I like the fact that in a close combat, the guy with the knife will have an edge over a guy trying to jam a rifle up against someone and pull the trigger. The tables, as they stand, handle that well.

Also, for me, the "fiction" of the rolls make sense. When one rolls a high Wound roll after hitting, that is the penetration of the armor. (And likewise, even if one "misses" the to hit roll, it might well be the bullet struck, but there was no penetration.

Finally, Striker was build for larger scale conflicts. A lot of a Classic Traveller game is going to be taking place at Close and Short range (anything in a room, really) with a sprinkling of Medium range, while Striker focuses on weapons designed for field combat at Medium and Long range.

Certainly, the CT combat matrixes are a pain in the neck. But working from an idea from Supplement Four (where'd he go, by the way?) I'm designing these Classic Traveller Weapon Cards. They take the combined combat matrix from the old Judge's Guild Traveller Referee Screen and builds one card per weapon. Not only will this cut down on handling time, but I like how it sets the advantages and disadvantages of each weapon in terms of armor and range right in front of the player. They can see what job different weapons are good for, and encourage them to jockey for position for the best odds.

Years ago such a product would be a pain in the neck to produce. Today, it's some time and Kinkos.

But we're all going to have the solid tweaks that make the Classic version of Traveller the exact Classic version we'd want.

Also, Mike, I was thinking of you today. I making a Traveller Referee Binder, and built the covers today. A quote of yours is on the back cover. You nailed down what mattered to me about Traveller ever since I first read the rules back when I was a teen, riding back home out of Manhattan after picking up the boxed set from the Compleat Strategist. So, thanks!

That all said, I just realized this was the thread about CT '87, not the 40th anniversary edition of Traveller. So I'll shut up now.

 

[aramis]

The Traveller Book came out in 1982. and Starter Traveller in 1983. By then the following supplements had been released.

Mercenary, Book 4 in 1978
Citizens of the lmperium, supplement 4 in 1978 (additional character classes)
High Guard, Book 5, came out in 1979 and was revised in 1980
Fighting Ships, Supplement 9 in 1981

None of the material in those books made it into either The Traveller Book or Starter Traveller. I am not sure if a 1987 version of Traveller would have picked up the material or not, but the option was there in 1982 and 1983 and was not taken up.

The 1987 version is MegaTraveller.

Marc had input to, approval of, and review of, DGP's revision. And of their Vision.

Mechanically, it incorporated HG and Sup 4 in the core. All the Sup 4 weapons, all the Sup 4 careers.

It's close enough that hard core CT players had little problem switching, and just far enough to throw casual players off a bit. The real problem was the setting changes that really didn't resonate with most people.

 

[whulorigan]

The 1987 version is MegaTraveller.
.
.
.
It's close enough that hard core CT players had little problem switching, and just far enough to throw casual players off a bit. The real problem was the setting changes that really didn't resonate with most people.

Agreed. MT nicely consolidated much of what had developed over the CT era between CT, Striker, and various JTAS articles. We converted our campaign from the CT to the MT ruleset, and typically played a fusion of CT/MT with little problem.

It was the Rebellion scenario (and especially how it turned into a "custom-designed", many-faction, setting-wrecking unresolvable conflict) that left me non-plussed.

 

[Timerover51]

It's close enough that hard core CT players had little problem switching, and just far enough to throw casual players off a bit. The real problem was the setting changes that really didn't resonate with most people.

I would say that might be a bit of an understatement.

Although I was not and still am not a fan of the design sequences.

 

[Whipsnade]

Interesting thread! My sundry comments...

General - All decisions should be made with Omer Golan-Joel's Three Creeps firmly in mind.

Chargen - More careers. Add the S:4 batch. Extended or advanced chargen, however, only feeds "Skills Creep" which in turn distorts the 2D6 into irrelevance (see below). Rather than being used as an excuse to grab more skills, extended or advanced chargen could be dialed back to only produce the year-by-year "back story" today's players seem to require. How ever many are earned and how ever they are earned, have skill awarded in four year term blocks only.

Skills - Prune the bloated MT list. Maybe not as far back as CT's earlier versions, but definitely not as many as MT. The rules also need to explain that sometimes skills are not needed.

Tasks - When I first saw it, I was a fan of the DGP task system. Nowadays, I'm not as enraptured. It's overly fiddly, invites endless DMs, and feeds "Complexity Creep". You only cram so much into a 2D6 roll before you either lose track or make the roll itself irrelevant. Anyone else remember Brilliant Lances with it's cardboard slide rule to keep track of DMs? As Mike wisely posted, you only need 8+ and 12+ as target numbers, all the rest is needless complexity.

Weapons - Military weapons are needed. Add LBB:4's list.

Vehicles - A sci-fi game needs a vehicle design/combat system as much as it does a starship design/combat system. That doesn't mean we should use the MT or Striker systems. ISTR a document floating around on the 'net called Joe's CT Vehicles or some such. It was brief, maybe 8 pages including examples, used pre-existing CT weapons/equipment, and included a combat system. The Joe system would be a good place to start.

Robots - A sci-fi game needs a robot design system too, just not the LBB:8 system. While they led to LBB:8, the rules which appeared in JTAS would a good place to begin simplifying.

Personal Combat - AHL/Striker pen/dmg definitely.

Ship Design/Combat - Mike already wrote everything I would have, especially the part about giving everyone something to do during combat.

Equipment - While the MT example is good, such an extensive list could take over the rules like kudzu has taken over the US Southeast. Provide a few "everyday" items, provide more "sci-fi" items, and then present and explain the US dollar to In-Game credit link: By using that link, referees can create in-game price from real world prices.

Trade - Prune it all the way back to LBB:2. It was meant to be PC scale and it works best at PC scale. It's not an economics game. As MJD so wisely says 'It's about ADVENTURE in the Far Future, not accounting". A game which provides an economics fix feeds "Scale Creep".

Worlds - Prune it right back to LBB:2 too. Every new exoplanet found has proven that any sysgen - including actual scientific ones - are hopelessly broken. Instead of providing dozens of tables that cannot mimic a reality that changes with each new discovery, tell people to use the imaginations for a change.

 

[flykiller]

All decisions should be made with Omer Golan-Joel's Three Creeps firmly in mind.

not only firmly in mind, but firmly accepted. the alternative is a huge book that tries to 1) specify everything up front and 2) fails. the game takes place in an entire spiral arm of a galaxy, spanning hundreds of thousands of years and dozens of tech levels and thousands of cultures and knowledge levels and races and ways of doing business (not to mention the views of anyone who actually plays the game, should that happen). there will be creep. embrace it.

 

[flykiller]

It was meant to be PC scale and it works best at PC scale. It's not an economics game.

yeah, but eventually the players want to know where they fit into the larger scheme, and then you have to figure out that larger scheme, and the creep becomes a pell-mell gallop ....

 

[creativehum]

Personal Combat - AHL/Striker pen/dmg definitely.

Fine. I'm going to open up AHL and see, one more time, what I'm missing. Because I can't see the great appeal (for reasons stated above).
But I believe you guys!

 

[kilemall]

not only firmly in mind, but firmly accepted. the alternative is a huge book that tries to 1) specify everything up front and 2) fails. the game takes place in an entire spiral arm of a galaxy, spanning hundreds of thousands of years and dozens of tech levels and thousands of cultures and knowledge levels and races and ways of doing business (not to mention the views of anyone who actually plays the game, should that happen). there will be creep. embrace it.

NOOOO creepiness!

Core book, cheap to buy and easy to jump into, then you buy settings books which get into whatever specialized play and/or scifi environment/books/shows.

Figure out your Mercenary/High Guard ahead of time, then you can just publish tweaked versions for the Hammer's Slammers/CoDominum/Dune/Firefly whatever.

Or cram all your Maker equivalent stuff in one big DoomBook for the fiddlers, and it's standard shopping list equipment for the core and setting books.

 

[flykiller]

Core book, cheap to buy and easy to jump into, then you buy settings books which get into whatever specialized play and/or scifi environment/books/shows.

isn't that what "traveller" did? every new addition was a new edition with a brand-new setting and tweaked/re-written rules. each turned into its own ghetto with rabid detractors and rabid adherents.

heh, perhaps the issue wasn't "creep" but "mis-jump" ....

 

[kilemall]

Fine. I'm going to open up AHL and see, one more time, what I'm missing. Because I can't see the great appeal (for reasons stated above).
But I believe you guys!

I recently reviewed Snapshot, which should handle most everything but outdoors encounters, do love that AP system.

Ok, AHL is basically merged Snapshot action/Striker resolution mechanics, with less crazy autokill built into those pens, and a faster melee system.

Oh boooo, the APs are simplified to 6 rather then the sum of DEX+END. Hmm, guess I would use an average of those two if putting characters in there.

I am liking that that melee stun result, AND the plasma/fusion guns are interestingly more survivable.

Hrm, RAM HEAPs are still wonder weapons.

 

[aramis]

Although I was not and still am not a fan of the design sequences.

I used to be, but now, I'll just use T20's (much nicer) design sequences, and MT's damage rating, and convert armor to MT AV.

Edit to add: My MT house rules have essentially rewritten the entire PM except skill lists... and when I get them ready for play, will replace half the RM as well.

 

[mike wightman]

I recently reviewed Snapshot, which should handle most everything but outdoors encounters, do love that AP system.

Ok, AHL is basically merged Snapshot action/Striker resolution mechanics, with less crazy autokill built into those pens, and a faster melee system.

Oh boooo, the APs are simplified to 6 rather then the sum of DEX+END. Hmm, guess I would use an average of those two if putting characters in there.

I am liking that that melee stun result, AND the plasma/fusion guns are interestingly more survivable.

Hrm, RAM HEAPs are still wonder weapons.

Just hack the two together Snapshot AP system (with a couple of rules borrowed from AHL, notably the phases) and the AHL damage resolution system converting wound severity to damage dice.
Done.