• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Carniculture is here (almost)

rancke

Absent Friend
The world's first lab-grown burger was cooked and eaten at a news conference in London on Monday.

It's almost twice as energy-efficient as real meat and takes up 1% of the space needed to produce real meat.


Hans
 
I will have to inquire of my two vegetarian children as to how they will view this development. It has to be healthier for them than all of the Morningstar TVP fake-meat products they consume now!
 
I will have to inquire of my two vegetarian children as to how they will view this development. It has to be healthier for them than all of the Morningstar TVP fake-meat products they consume now!

I'm not a vegetarian, but I like that particular brand of fake meat. (Religious reasons for eating them.) Vat grown meat won't substitute for fake meat for me, as it's already been established that it is still animal tissue... in the same way that test tube babies are still people.
 
I'm not a vegetarian, but I like that particular brand of fake meat. (Religious reasons for eating them.) Vat grown meat won't substitute for fake meat for me, as it's already been established that it is still animal tissue... in the same way that test tube babies are still people.

I think it will depend on the individual's reason for vegetarian eating, whether it is because one thinks it is morally wrong to eat animals, or because one thinks that it is healthier than eating meat, or something else.

[Not gonna follow up on the "test tube babies" hook unless you want to take it to The Pit. :) ]
 
[m;]Let's not get into the motivations of specific political action groups and/or religions.[/m;]
 
I was reminded of this just now in a thread over on the SJG forums. I posted this two years ago in the hope that someone would grab the ball and run with it, coming up with some Traveller rules for carniculture (cost of building a 'farm', what the product would cost, and that sort of thing) at various tech levels. Or at least some lively talk about the wonders of future technology.


Hans
 
I was reminded of this just now in a thread over on the SJG forums. I posted this two years ago in the hope that someone would grab the ball and run with it, coming up with some Traveller rules for carniculture (cost of building a 'farm', what the product would cost, and that sort of thing) at various tech levels. Or at least some lively talk about the wonders of future technology.


Hans

They're in T4's FF&S 2, in the section on life support. Or, should I say, carniculture is one of the technologies presupposed in the entries.
 
Must say, this is the first I've heard that term.

IMTU assumes that tech in place, just because of the space station/ecological impact themes in place.

But like anything else, there is a price.

People growing up on vatmeat end up more comfortable with it then 'wild' stuff, bult ultimately craving the different taste, so there is a business in grown meat, definitely the sort of thing you buy as 'the fatted calf' for weddings, major celebrations, etc.

Vatmeat cultures can be contaminated or go poisonous, the industrial food equivalent of 'mad cow' disease, requiring sterilization and elimination and the creation of new lines.

Carefully designed culture lines will have a complete protein/B vitamin nutrient base, but the cheaper cutrate ones may be of less nutritious value, with effects on character's health long term.

For OTU play, this could be a good background or play hook item.

One thought was that the Aslan might eschew vatmeat, preferring the 'taste' of the kill, while Vargr will pretty much eat it up and vast factories are on the border providing exotic tastes to the Vargr market.

Another is that the Hivers would have a line of fungus that tastes like human-preferred meat but which does not generate the smell, allowing diplomats and traders with the K'kree to remain 'clean smelling' while not depriving themselves of at least the taste.
 
IMTU assumes that tech in place, just because of the space station/ecological impact themes in place.
We also assume that certain agricultural practices are in place of TL5 worlds. That doesn't mean we don't find production figures useful when we're world-building.

One thought was that the Aslan might eschew vatmeat, preferring the 'taste' of the kill, while Vargr will pretty much eat it up and vast factories are on the border providing exotic tastes to the Vargr market.

Another is that the Hivers would have a line of fungus that tastes like human-preferred meat but which does not generate the smell, allowing diplomats and traders with the K'kree to remain 'clean smelling' while not depriving themselves of at least the taste.
Interesting ideas. Good chrome.


Hans
 
Must say, this is the first I've heard that term.

I've seen the term "carniculture" in sci-fi books written in the 1990s or possibly earlier, and have definitely seen "vat-grown animal protein" used since the 1970s.

Carefully designed culture lines will have a complete protein/B vitamin nutrient base, but the cheaper cutrate ones may be of less nutritious value, with effects on character's health long term.

It isn't just those, but there are also a couple of amino-acid chains that are essential to good human health that are only found in animal protein - fortunately for most meat-shunners they are found in milk (acceptable to religious vegetarians - the Buddhists make lots of foods with real butter, cheeses, etc., since milking an animal not only doesn't harm it, but can even be beneficial to it).

For dietary vegans, the animo acids have been isolated and processed from animal proteins, and so are available in supplement form along with vitamins, etc.

Another is that the Hivers would have a line of fungus that tastes like human-preferred meat but which does not generate the smell, allowing diplomats and traders with the K'kree to remain 'clean smelling' while not depriving themselves of at least the taste.

In November 1986, I visited a Chinese Buddhist temple on one of the islands of Hong Kong, and had the vegetarian meal they prepared for visitors - there were a couple of items that I decided had to be some form of mushroom, but which tasted very like pork & beef (due to the flavorings). They couldn't have been soy/tofu, because they had the same kind of linear fibrous structure that muscles and plants do.
 
Wait for the side effects. These people love to come out with new ground breaking products we digest. And eventually someone figures out that their using too much caramel IV or gluten or something that kills us.

However, its fine for the vat people of Paranoia.:oo:
 
Wait for the side effects. These people love to come out with new ground breaking products we digest. And eventually someone figures out that their using too much caramel IV or gluten or something that kills us.
And then wait some more time until the scientists have spent a tech level or so ironing out the bugs and coming up with a thoroughly tested product.

This was the very first manifestation of the technology. Not the mature version.


Hans
 
And then wait some more time until the scientists have spent a tech level or so ironing out the bugs and coming up with a thoroughly tested product.

This was the very first manifestation of the technology. Not the mature version.


Hans

Agreed. Its an experiment and we're the test subjects.
 
We are? Who is "we"? I didn't get invited to taste it.


Hans

Oh, not yet. But just wait. They'll invite you. They'll ask you to buy it too. And if you gleefully say, "yes" not only will you be a test subject, but a willing sponsor.
:frankie:
 
Oh, not yet. But just wait. They'll invite you. They'll ask you to buy it too. And if you gleefully say, "yes" not only will you be a test subject, but a willing sponsor.
:frankie:

Oh, I'm sure all those horrible disasters resulting from gene-modified crops will serve as a warning and a lesson not to embrace any new thing.


Hans
 
Spoken like a true Vilani, didn't we fight a few Interstellar wars against that kind of thinking?

Ok I jest (at least in part)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've seen the term "carniculture" in sci-fi books written in the 1990s or possibly earlier, and have definitely seen "vat-grown animal protein" used since the 1970s.

Not to forget the 1973 movie "Soylent Green" loosely based upon the 1966 science fiction novel "Make Room! Make Room!".

Yeah, sure. It's 'free range vat-grown' meat ... so how much did you want? :)
 
Last edited:
I've seen the term "carniculture" in sci-fi books written in the 1990s or possibly earlier, and have definitely seen "vat-grown animal protein" used since the 1970s.

The term was used by H. Beam Piper. I recall that it was in Four-Day Planet, written in 1961; and in Space Viking, from 1962.
 
The term was used by H. Beam Piper. I recall that it was in Four-Day Planet, written in 1961; and in Space Viking, from 1962.

I was pretty sure I had read the term in older books, but couldn't even remember the author - which just proves that I need to dig Piper's books back out and re-read them.

I have all of his books, but haven't read most of them since the 1980s*, so they are definitely overdue for a revisiting!



* I re-read the Fuzzy books last year.
 
Back
Top