Cargo Discussion: Dtons & Details

[Ref00000]

Noted Aramis mentioned a 'hard limit' on cargo mass per Dton.
14 megagrams or some such awkwardness.
Can we talk about this?
What does this translate to in quick and dirty terms? The size and shape of various cargo containers is pretty clearly laid out and straight forward in a couple of places in canon materiels. Or is it? what about the details of packing? I realize this is a bit esoteric at first glance, but lets poke it with a stick.
a ⅓ Dton shipping container with:
1} a bunch of weapons and gear thrown in.
2} a half-dozen Armory packed assault rifles, spare mags, ammo, web-gear, manuals, spare parts and an armorer's toolkit.
3} random cyberlimbs hooked up to support mechanisms and battery power.
4} 'luxury foodstuffs'.
5} Sand {Ship's Turret Rounds}
6} Rock Salt (a nod to the 'exports from Yori' thread that sparked my post)
Any of these could be found in many starport cargo storage areas, or bought in a cargo lot. There is, however, a pretty substantial difference to the Players between them. To a Stevedore-bot, not so much, unless it blows an actuator trying to lift that salt.
which brings up the use of 'grav pallets' and the like. {see footnote}
Is there a practical way to describe the hard limit to density?
ie: if the PCs 'fill a ⅓ Dton Conex with ball-bearings in ZeroG' what is that going to do when the cargo-bot at the HiG downport swings it free of the ship's gravity grid?
Also, How Much Does An Empty Conex weigh? (assuming a standard tech level and materiel construction meeting Imperial Shipping Standards)
any and all thoughts and input is appreciated.




:CoW:{quick MTU NOTE: I use a basis for grav-tech being pretty componentized, simple and 'fun to play with in game': The Grav Mat. the core of 'grav plates' is a semi-flexible mat of synthetic materiel imbedded with conductive fibres and rare-element compounds. they look exactly like those floor mats in commercial kitchens in the real world. If you hook them up to power, they create a grav-field. A Standard Grav plate can fit up to 3, they can generate a field of 1-3 Gs for ships use.}

 

[GypsyComet]

Noted Aramis mentioned a 'hard limit' on cargo mass per Dton.
14 megagrams or some such awkwardness.
Can we talk about this?
What does this translate to in quick and dirty terms?

One metric ton per cubic meter, or fourteen metric tons per displacement ton. It happens to be the average density of water, and is the assumed average density of heavy equipment (since that has a lot of higher density metals but doesn't fill the volume completely).

 

[tjoneslo]

Also, How Much Does An Empty Conex weigh? (assuming a standard tech level and materiel construction meeting Imperial Shipping Standards)
any and all thoughts and input is appreciated.

GT:FT describes three sizes of shipping container, 8 dtons, 4 dtons and 2 dtons, the largest corresponds to the standard shipping containers used today on ships. The standard container (empty) weighs 16,200 lbs (7,348 kg) and costs KCr18. There are various upgrades and downgrades listed in GT:FT p 57.

GT uses a much more limited 5 standard tons to each displacement ton, to match the broader GURPS rules. Failure to adhere to this limit may involve over weight surcharges.

 

[Timerover51]

Noted Aramis mentioned a 'hard limit' on cargo mass per Dton.
14 megagrams or some such awkwardness.
Can we talk about this?
What does this translate to in quick and dirty terms? The size and shape of various cargo containers is pretty clearly laid out and straight forward in a couple of places in canon materiels. Or is it? what about the details of packing? I realize this is a bit esoteric at first glance, but lets poke it with a stick.
a ⅓ Dton shipping container with:
1} a bunch of weapons and gear thrown in.
2} a half-dozen Armory packed assault rifles, spare mags, ammo, web-gear, manuals, spare parts and an armorer's toolkit.
3} random cyberlimbs hooked up to support mechanisms and battery power.
4} 'luxury foodstuffs'.
5} Sand {Ship's Turret Rounds}
6} Rock Salt (a nod to the 'exports from Yori' thread that sparked my post)
Any of these could be found in many starport cargo storage areas, or bought in a cargo lot. There is, however, a pretty substantial difference to the Players between them. To a Stevedore-bot, not so much, unless it blows an actuator trying to lift that salt.
which brings up the use of 'grav pallets' and the like. {see footnote}
Is there a practical way to describe the hard limit to density?
ie: if the PCs 'fill a ⅓ Dton Conex with ball-bearings in ZeroG' what is that going to do when the cargo-bot at the HiG downport swings it free of the ship's gravity grid?
Also, How Much Does An Empty Conex weigh? (assuming a standard tech level and materiel construction meeting Imperial Shipping Standards)
any and all thoughts and input is appreciated.




:CoW:{quick MTU NOTE: I use a basis for grav-tech being pretty componentized, simple and 'fun to play with in game': The Grav Mat. the core of 'grav plates' is a semi-flexible mat of synthetic materiel imbedded with conductive fibres and rare-element compounds. they look exactly like those floor mats in commercial kitchens in the real world. If you hook them up to power, they create a grav-field. A Standard Grav plate can fit up to 3, they can generate a field of 1-3 Gs for ships use.}

I can extract most of the required information from my US Army Field Manual 55-15, Transportation Reference Data (December 1963) and my US Army Field Manual 101-10, Staff Officers' Field Manual-Organization, Technical, and Logistical Data (February 1959) if you really want all of that data.

For foodstuffs, One Long Ton of 2,240 pounds of US Army "Class A" rations, which included both fresh and frozen meats, vegetables, and fruit required 94 cubic feet of storage space for shipping purposes. As a Long Ton is equal to 1.016 Metric Tons, that would give about 5.06 tons mass of food per 13.5 cubic meter displacement ton.

By CONEX container, I assume that you mean the US Military Box, Metal, Shipping, Reusable (Cargo Transporter). The half-size container had a maximum tare (empty) weight of 900 pounds, the full-size container had a maximum tare (empty) weight of 1500 pounds.

5} Sand

Sand, dry/loose, would weight about 90 pounds per cubic foot, so 3150 pounds per cubic meter, or 1428 kilograms per cubic meter.

6} Rock Salt

Rock Salt will weight about 48 pounds per cubic foot, so 1680 pounds per cubic meter, or 762 kilograms per cubic meter. I am using for the purposes of calculation 35 cubic feet per cubic meter rather than 35.314667 cubic feet per cubic meter.

Generally, containers are going to have a maximum, do not exceed, weight for cargo loading, regardless of the capacity of grav equipment to handle them. You would also have to allow for the possibility that the receiving port would not have grav equipment to handle dropped off cargo containers.

Again, are you seriously asking for that type of detailed data?

 

[Ref00000]

Timerover 51, post away.

My first thought was "heck YES I want you to post that", regarding the techManual on cargo.
exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping to foster.
To other responders, 'Well Done!, Good on yer!'

 

[Ref00000]

"Sand"

there's sand, and there's "Sand, Ship's Turret Rounds"
the stuff on the beach bears no resemblance to the stuff those ubiquitous sandcasters fire.
what are the weights and measures on a "Sandcaster Barrel, one, each", anyhow? The only salient point that pops into my head is from High Guard, various ed.; "Sandcaster Ammo may be manufactured down to TL={7}, so lower tech worlds can contribute to the Navy's supply-chain." (paraphrased)
I always describe them as 'a five-gallon bucket, more or less' and, incidentally related, a 'standard missile' in the packing tube is 'a bit over a meter long, as big around as a one-gallon-paint-can-plus-a-bit, and weighing slightly less than 50lbs.'
these are descriptive benchmarks that allow for fast narration and provide Players with a 'handle' almost anyone can grab onto for a solid mental picture of 'what "reloading the turret" actually means' for their PC's activity level and actions.
Are these anything like anyone else's descriptions? I'm going to spawn a separate "turret crew notes" thread, I think.
Please continue with the 'cargo stuff', in any case.

 

[Ref00000]

Exceptionally dense cargos

How, then, would 'bulk ore' be packed?
smaller containers?
If you, say, needed to ship :
Lead. Pb, refined, ingot form.
for bullets, or low tech rad shielding or whatever.
does this mean there's a maximum of 14 metric tons of ingots, rattling around in a 'one ton' Conex?
As for those standard containers, The GURPS stuff is all fine and well, but the illos in T5 plainly show ⅓ Dton containers, as well as the bigger ones.
I've always assumed ⅓, ½, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 10 Dton to be the ubiquitous, universal sizes of 'Imperial Standard Port Authority' containers. bigger, of course for bulk carriers and super-sized cargo. but if the PCs are buying a surplus, or new CONEX, this is the generally available item.

 

[aramis]

GT:FT describes three sizes of shipping container, 8 dtons, 4 dtons and 2 dtons, the largest corresponds to the standard shipping containers used today on ships.

Well, not quite but close.... the "standard" 2 TEU is 40'x8'6"x8' and is and is just shy of 5.5 Tdg, and just under 5.6Tdct.
and the actual common is a 46"x9'6"x8' (2.25 TEU high cube) and is 7Tdg, or 7.14Tdct, 7.4Tdt5.

 

[aramis]

How, then, would 'bulk ore' be packed?
smaller containers?
If you, say, needed to ship :
Lead. Pb, refined, ingot form.
for bullets, or low tech rad shielding or whatever.
does this mean there's a maximum of 14 metric tons of ingots, rattling around in a 'one ton' Conex?
As for those standard containers, The GURPS stuff is all fine and well, but the illos in T5 plainly show ⅓ Dton containers, as well as the bigger ones.
I've always assumed ⅓, ½, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 10 Dton to be the ubiquitous, universal sizes of 'Imperial Standard Port Authority' containers. bigger, of course for bulk carriers and super-sized cargo. but if the PCs are buying a surplus, or new CONEX, this is the generally available item.

Canon shows a 4Td container, not a 5, and mentions 1, 2, 4, and 8 Td containers.

Heavy load is a viable cargo complication when using TNE/T4 design systems.

In MT, the limit is soft - you design based upon 1Megagram (metric ton) per kiloliter (cubic meter) for cargo, but as long as you're using gravitic thrusters, you don't actually need to consider mass at all.

TNE, the design process is the same, but the ship overall must be under 10Mg per 14kL, or you have to refigure based upon actual load - the drives are designed for 10Mg/kL.

 

[Timerover51]

How, then, would 'bulk ore' be packed?
smaller containers?

If you want to ship "bulk ore" in a shipping container, you are going to have to package it into smaller containers for easier handling, depending on what the "bulk ore" is. You also have to remember the cargo handling capabilities of the destination.

If you, say, needed to ship: Lead. Pb, refined, ingot form. for bullets, or low tech rad shielding or whatever. does this mean there's a maximum of 14 metric tons of ingots, rattling around in a 'one ton' Conex?

Normally, material like that will be banded to a shipping pallet, in the real world, normally a wooden one, with about 1 ton of ingots per pallet. Pallets would be on the bottom of the container, spread out to avoid weight concentration, and if possible, lighter items would be placed on top. A favorite way of shipping corrugated steel to Africa is putting in a layer of corrugated sheeting on the bottom of the container, and then filling the container with second-hand clothing. Steel pays for the freight, so the clothing basically costs the shipper nothing.

As for those standard containers, The GURPS stuff is all fine and well, but the illos in T5 plainly show ⅓ Dton containers, as well as the bigger ones. I've always assumed ⅓, ½, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 10 Dton to be the ubiquitous, universal sizes of 'Imperial Standard Port Authority' containers. bigger, of course for bulk carriers and super-sized cargo. but if the PCs are buying a surplus, or new CONEX, this is the generally available item.

I am not sure about 8 and 10 dTon containers, as that would be on par with the size of an 18-wheeler trailer. Handling those is going to be difficult even with grav equipment. Without that, you have to start thinking of Roll-on/Roll-off wheeled containers.

 

[aramis]

I am not sure about 8 and 10 dTon containers, as that would be on par with the size of an 18-wheeler trailer. Handling those is going to be difficult even with grav equipment. Without that, you have to start thinking of Roll-on/Roll-off wheeled containers.

8 would be a 50' High-cube (I've seen a few of those rolling down the road)

10Td would be more like a freight car for the trains.

Std. US "50' boxcar":
Exterior 55'5"x10'7"x(~12') not including running gear.
Interior: 5,238cf (10.4Tdg, ~150cubic meters, 10.7 Tdct, 11Tdt5)
(Interior length 50'7")


http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/equipment/railroad-equipment/#boxcar_specs

 

[Patron Zero]

Thanks for the CSX link, Aramis, such is genuinely appreciated and most helpful.

IMTU I have several starships that operate as bulk freight haulers using standard cargo containers which are attached to open skeletal frames-rails. With the information from the CSX site I can now more accurately represent 'tanker' car type loads and unconventional shipping platforms.

 

[aramis]

Thanks for the CSX link, Aramis, such is genuinely appreciated and most helpful.

By the way - keep in mind that there are 3 Traveller Displacement Tons -
(Parenthesized units were converted using google's conversion function)

GURPS Traveller uses a 500 cu ft (14.1584 cubic meters). I've been abbreviating that Tdg.
CT, TNE, T4, T20, MGT and HT use 14 Cubic Meters (494.405 cu ft). This is the Tdct
MegaTraveller uses 13.5 cubic meters (476.748 cu ft), as does T5. Tdt5

 

[Vladika]

By the way - keep in mind that there are 3 Traveller Displacement Tons -
(Parenthesized units were converted using google's conversion function)

GURPS Traveller uses a 500 cu ft (14.1584 cubic meters). I've been abbreviating that Tdg.
CT, TNE, T4, T20, MGT and HT use 14 Cubic Meters (494.405 cu ft). This is the Tdct
MegaTraveller uses 13.5 cubic meters (476.748 cu ft), as does T5. Tdt5

I've always found the CT tonnage interesting:

The Hull: Hulls are identified by their mass displacement, expressed in tons. As a rough guide, one ton equals 14 cubic meters (the volume of one ton of liquid hydrogen). LBB2 p13

Deck Plans: If the referee or the designer should feel that detailed deck plans for a ship are required, then they may be drawn up using square grid graph paper. The preferred scale for the interior should be 1.5 meters per square, with the space between decks put at about 3.0 meters. One ton of ship displacement equals approximately 14 cubic meters. Therefore one ton equals about two squares of deck space.LBB2 p21

When using the recommended Deck Plan Scale (1.5x1.5x3) you get exactly 13.5 cubic meters per ton. T5 did a good job clarifying this.

All in all the various "tonnages" are close enough approximations for gaming purposes.

BTW, it is interesting to note the Gurps 500 cubic feet, and the often stated "5 mass tons = 1 displacement ton", equates to the Earth seagoing accepted "tonnage"; 100 cubic feet/ ton as volume capacity of cargo.

 

[McPerth]

When using the recommended Deck Plan Scale (1.5x1.5x3) you get exactly 13.5 cubic meters per ton. T5 did a good job clarifying this.

I was told time ago in this same forum that this was the reason MT used the 1dton=13.5 m³ instead of the 1 dton=14 m³ used in most Traveller versions: to help in making deck plans.

 

[Ref00000]

a lot of good stuff here, guys, Thank You!

always great to see such thought go into thread responses.
thanks for that 'truck/rail container intel', Aramis!

 

[Timerover51]

always great to see such thought go into thread responses.
thanks for that 'truck/rail container intel', Aramis!

I will assume that you need no more data from me then.

 

[Ref00000]

why would you assume that?
post anything you think is useful, Timerover.
I'll save it for later, someone else might use it.
Don't put yourself out, but don't leave it hanging, my good man.
I, as I said, love me some tech manuals.
I'd say 'scan the whole damn thing and put it on here, or a cloud site, or send it to me.'
Free Information is always potentially Useful.
there might be some tidbit or dogend in there that makes someone's game full of detail and fun. someone might write a 'Stevedore's Supply Service' supplement.

 

[Timerover51]

I worked up this data from the 1862 Ordnance Manual for the US Army a few days ago and finally got to posting it. I will work up the shipping basis for some more modern weaponry next week, and also try for some shipping data on vehicles as well.

The following is the shipping data for a crate of 20 Model 1855 Springfield Rifled Muskets with bayonet. Rifled Musket weighs 9.18 pounds, bayonet weighs 0.72 pounds, total weight per complete weapon is 9.90 pounds. The crates outside dimensions are 61.25 inches long by 18 inches wide by 15.25 inches deep, and it is made of white and yellow pine wood. Total weight is 286 pounds, but if lined with tin for sea transport, the weight is 301 pounds. The crate occupies approximately 9.75 cubic feet. Eight crates would weigh slightly over One Long Ton of 2240 pounds, at 2288 pounds, would occupy 78 cubic feet, and hold 160 rifled muskets. Six tons of crates would occupy a cubic volume of 468 cubic feet, or slightly less than the 476.748 that equals 13.5 cubic meters or approximately One Traveller displacement ton of 14 cubic meters or 494.4 cubic feet. The cost to the US of Springfield rifle-muskets during the Civil War averaged out at $19.51 cents per weapon. I am not sure how much the bayonets cost, but looking at the prices for other Civil War period cutlery, a dollar or so seems reasonable, to the rifle-bayonet combination could be priced at about $20.67 cents or one ounce of gold.

I also will try to get up some information on the size and weight of some of the US Army Engineer tool sets, some of which were pretty heavy. I do have lists for what they normally contained as well.

 

[Travellerspud]

FYI, in Earthly shipping environments, one is charged actual weight or "dimensional weight", which ever is greater. Dimensional weight is something like 11.5 pounds per cubic foot (varies somewhat by shipper). This value is sometimes used to determine the "average weight" of "LTL freight" (think UPS) shipped packages, by volume. This is just over 2 tons per Dton (a good "lower limit")....water is just under 11 tons per Dton....Platinum/plutonium/uranium is about 130 tons per Dton (probably an upper limit, assuming one needs to ship the Emperor's piggy bank). Although shipping that large of a chunk of pure plutonium might be problematic before TL13....