biodiesel

[parmasson]

Is biodiesel usable as fuel in an oil lamp?

I suppose it would be but it just seems that it might not be flammable enough. I get conflicting reports from net sources. One site claimed that the “Cetane” rating was above 100 while normal Diesel is around 40. Basically just wondering if the PCs could make a Molotov cocktail out of it.

I was thinking it would make a great post-Virus/ TNE fuel for worn out former industrial planets with little in the way of petroleum still in the ground (1000 years of pumping might do that) and not much access to high tech power plants.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Since oil lamps have used vegetable oils (olives etc) in ancient times, biodiesel should work. Actually the flaming point is IIRC a bit lower than mineral oil.

If you mean the "Coleman" style lanterns (Pump to pressuries, than fire up) I am not sure wether they work with diesel at all. IIRC we fired ours with petrol.

 

[parmasson]

^Duh! I totally forgot that.
Yeah, you are quite correct. I guess that makes biodiesel a TL-3 fuel.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:

I was thinking it would make a great post-Virus/ TNE fuel for worn out former industrial planets with little in the way of petroleum still in the ground (1000 years of pumping might do that) and not much access to high tech power plants.

Good idea - and it also has the advantage of being productable everywhere you could grow plants rather than having to find an area with fossile fuel on a planet with fossile fuel. Same goes to ethanol used as fuel (TL1 to produce the "raw" ethanol; TL3-4 to refine to a REAL fuel, just keep your engineers from drinking it...).

Alternate energy sources are a favorite subject of mine. One of my two end-of-B.A. papers (which I'm in the process of writing) is on biogas (basically Methane produced by biological fermentation) - and I was surprised both about its efficiency AND the fact that biogas production and use is quite low-tech and dirt-cheap; another advantage is that its a very efficient way of getting rid of almost any kind of organic waste - and turning it to a very available energy source. And Biogas could be used for anything from engines and generators, through cooking, to lamps (anything you could use natural gas or the gaseus products of petroleum refining for). And, in the right kind of cannister (i.e. a pressurized one), it is explosive and highly flammable.

 

[Laryssa]

Its hard for biogas to compete with fusion however. Solar panels ought to work pretty well too, besides one can always burn hydrogen.

 

[parmasson]

^ That is true but really I am talking about a low tech world. No fusion.

 

[Scott Martin]

You still run into issues of energy requirements to generate / refine the fuel.

Vegetable oils are a much better idea at low TL's: "BioDiesel" is only a good idea at the moment because we have such large reams of "waste" organic material available at low (or vene negative) cost.

Biodiesel would go away if the "waste" products that they are made from were no longer waste products. Marginal economies (Below TL 4-5) are not going to have any interest in Biodiesel, since the effort (and expense) to make it will be higher than the effort to make vegetable oils.

There's a reason that whaling was so popular in the 17th and 18th century, and mineral oils became popular after that: lots of oil for "industrial" use so that (edible) vegetable oils become available for a wider variety of other uses (like soap...)

Scott Martin

 

[parmasson]

Just banging around the idea.

From what I understand palm oil and rapeseed produce a respectable amount per acre.
Of course this being sci-fi we can create any kind of economy we need to fit our plots.
We can justify it by saying . . .
A planet had pumped its oil out after 800 or 900 years of industrial production or mass export.
Or if the planet was not old enough to have formed oil just yet.
Or if oil just never formed.
Or . . . whatever.
I know that it is a hot button topic right now and its “real world” feasibility I will leave to the experts. I just want to figure its usability as a PC scale weapon in an upcoming adventure.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Its hard for biogas to compete with fusion however. Solar panels ought to work pretty well too, besides one can always burn hydrogen.

Kurega Gikur has beat me to saying this, but I was talking about TLs 5-7, in which:

1) The production of hydrogen for fuel is quite energy-intensive, expensive and difficult (you need to provide the power for the electrolysis system, and it's ALOT of power; fission power could come in handy in this, as does solar-power in areas with small amounts of cloudiness).
2) Fusion Power is not yet possible, atleast in a controllable manner ("hydrogen" - that is fusion - bombs are TL6).

By TL9, you are 100% correct - energy usually stops to be a limited resource anymore as fusion becomes cheap, controllable and easy to do.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:

Alternate energy sources are a favorite subject of mine. One of my two end-of-B.A. papers (which I'm in the process of writing) is on biogas (basically Methane produced by biological fermentation) - and I was surprised both about its efficiency AND the fact that biogas production and use is quite low-tech and dirt-cheap; another advantage is that its a very efficient way of getting rid of almost any kind of organic waste - and turning it to a very available energy source.

I'm thinking of that quote by Tina Turner from Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome... ah, here we are.

Aunty Entity: We call it Underworld. That's where Bartertown gets its energy.
Max: What, oil? Natural gas?
Aunty Entity: Pigs.
Max: You mean pigs like those?
Aunty Entity: That's right.
Max: B*******!
Aunty Entity: No. Pig s***.
Max: What?
The Collector: Pig s***. The lights, the motors, the vehicles, all run by a high-powered gas called methane. And methane cometh from pig s***.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Its hard for biogas to compete with fusion however. Solar panels ought to work pretty well too, besides one can always burn hydrogen.

As mentioned above, from a sufficiently advanced world, fusion is the Bees Knees.

Solar panels, wind turbines, and hydroelectrics might be more difficult to use to run a technological society. I'm not sure. I do believe that all current industrial production is done via fossil fuels. I imagine it would be a great burden to have to run industry entirely off of sun, wind, and water.

Suffice to say that the price for everything goes up, up, up. Anyone done studies on this? At what mass-production point does the price for producing PV panels (or roof shingles or whatever) level off?

 

[archhealer]

Other problems with veg. oils and biodeisel: temperature. That's the big one. Biogas and similiar fuels often coagulate and solidify at relatively high temperatures, at which point they no longer flow through pipes, valves, etc.

Of course, I have no idea if they would still burn while solid... That'd be an interesting test...

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Archhealer:
Other problems with veg. oils and biodeisel: temperature. That's the big one. Biogas and similiar fuels often coagulate and solidify at relatively high temperatures, at which point they no longer flow through pipes, valves, etc.

Of course, I have no idea if they would still burn while solid... That'd be an interesting test...

Wait, wait. Vegetable oil burns fine. Take a bottle of Wesson and light it up. As a fuel, I'm not sure how efficient or hot it would be, but fry chefs know that oil is flammable...

 

[archhealer]

Yes,but what I'm wondering is, if you put a bottle of wesson into the fridge till it turns into a white gelatenous mass, will it still burn then, or do you need to melt it first?

 

[Anthony]

You could likely put a wick in it and have it burn, though the actually burning part would be liquid. This isn't much different from a tallow candle.

 

[mike wightman]

It isn't the liquid that burns either - it is the vapour that burns.

The wick provides a greater surface area for evaporation to take place.

 

[Scott Martin]

Hi Robject

Do a search on the website for Southern California Edison: They're currently doing a number of "alternate" power systems, and are aiming to produce ~35% of their power via "renewable" means in the next 10 years or so. with the peak price of power in california, and the ready availability of sun in peak power periods (EG, there is lots of sun out when people want to run A?C) a fair amount of new (industrial) construction is going with solar panels on the roof areas to keep operating (power) costs down, so that's already at break-even over a 5-10 year amortization period.

A lot of the "solar" power proposed is not photovoltaics but closed cycle gas turbines with a solar heat source. Photovoltaics "compete" for raw materials with the semiconductor industry, which is one of the main drivers in keeping photovoltaic costs up. Not an option for "home" use, since the turbines tend to start in the 7-figure range, but an appealing option for a utility...

On the subject of veg oils as a fuel source, I bwelieve that you can use low-grade oils as a diesel replacement. Remember that Diesel engines need to vaporize the fuel before ignition (combustion) since diesel is not very flammable (dumping diesel on a match at room temp will put out the match and make a mess: don't try this with gasoline, kerosine of aviation fuel) so Biodiesel (and other veg-based oils) should be fine for ground transportation not needing energy densities above car (or tank) levels. Sports cars and aircraft are going to have problems, but better living through chemistry should be able to get you decent "cracked" fuels (even if they're alcohol or ether based)

MTBE (Methyl tri-butyl ether) is a pretty damn nice fuel additive, and probably has enough "oomph" to power propeller-driven aircraft without too much difficulty, although it is now banned in California because it's a bit too easy to get into the water supply...

Scott Martin

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by robject:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:

Alternate energy sources are a favorite subject of mine. One of my two end-of-B.A. papers (which I'm in the process of writing) is on biogas (basically Methane produced by biological fermentation) - and I was surprised both about its efficiency AND the fact that biogas production and use is quite low-tech and dirt-cheap; another advantage is that its a very efficient way of getting rid of almost any kind of organic waste - and turning it to a very available energy source.

I'm thinking of that quote by Tina Turner from Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome... ah, here we are.

Aunty Entity: We call it Underworld. That's where Bartertown gets its energy.
Max: What, oil? Natural gas?
Aunty Entity: Pigs.
Max: You mean pigs like those?
Aunty Entity: That's right.
Max: B*******!
Aunty Entity: No. Pig s***.
Max: What?
The Collector: Pig s***. The lights, the motors, the vehicles, all run by a high-powered gas called methane. And methane cometh from pig s***.

</font>[/QUOTE]This is by far not science-fiction: about 100,000* farms in China are lighted and heated by biogas produced from the fermentation of pig slurry; better yet, the heating of the pigstyes by biogas lamps almost double pork production, especially in colder areas, which is very profitable and easily covers the cost of the biogas fermentor (which is low-tech, very easy to maintain and quite cheap). Tens of thousands of Chinese villages are now powered by biogas-fueled electricity generators. The biggest advantages of biogas over other renewable energy sources are:
1) Uses one of the most common raw-materials available: organic waste.
2) Better yet, turning organic waste into biogas greatly reduces the pollutive effects of such waste (which has a tendency to get into water sources, AND ferments naturally while emitting various polutants). Burning biogas is far less harmful to the environment than burning fossile fuel, in terms of polutant emissions.
3) Equipment is well-tested, cheap and very easy to operate and maintain.
4) You could use biogas to fuel anything you could use natural gas for: cooking ovens, lamps and so on - and you could do so directly from the fermentor (without even turning it into electricity; this allows you to directly fuel low-tech items).
5) And the best point: biogas is productible ANYWHERE you have organic waste, and organic waste is RENEWABLE. So no need to go to war over energy resources; also, it means that a decentralized and non-monopolistic energy production is quite possible.

The disadvantages of biogas are:
1) Biogas does emit polutants, mostly CO2 (but also others) when combusting, though in far lower quantities than fossile fuels, as opposed to solar, hydroelectric and geothermal power, which is totally clean.
3) Biogas, leaks in small amounts from fermentors and fuel tanks, and is a polutant (greenhouse gas) by itself; nevertheless, the leaks AND the combustion wastes combines are still far less polluting per unit of energy produced than the production, transport and combustion of fossile fuels.
2) Biogas is difficult to use in personal vehicles, as it needs engine alterations (for existing vehicles) and much larger fuel tanks than liquid fuels; this is easy to remedy by turning the biogas into electricity first, and then using electric motors, but there is an energy loss involved in every transition of energy from one form to another. Note that for larger vehicles this isn't a problemk as long as you alter the engine - there are busses in several parts of the world which are already powered by gas.

* I can send you the studies this data is based on in PDF format if you want.

 

[Anthony]

The other problem with biogas is that the majority of conveniently available biowaste is already used, generally either as animal feed or as fertilizer.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Anthony:
The other problem with biogas is that the majority of conveniently available biowaste is already used, generally either as animal feed or as fertilizer.

Most animal waste is still usable for biogas production - sure, some is used for fertilization, but alot still remains. Actually, if you want, I could send you a scientific article about a greenhouse/pigstye combo which uses pig slurry as source for biogas AND as a fertilizer for the plants. Ofcourse, there is also Human biowaste from cities, which, in RL, is hardly used (sh!t from several million people... now THAT's raw material)