Big Ships/Small Ships

[DrSkull]

I've been tempted to set up my next Traveller game to have an upper limit of starship size of somewhere between 2000 and 5000 dtons. I just haven't found 90,000 ton battleships to be very useful for adventure purposes.

If the navy ships are smaller, a PC crewed/owned vessel of 600-800 tons might actually be a real asset and small merhcant vessels are actually important economic assets, neither of which is true when an escort ship is 2000 tons and bulk carriers are just huge.

Looking at the reprints of early adventures, I think that the small ship size might have been the original set-up of the game, replaced when High Guard came out.

I was looking a some of the big ships, and a Fleet carrier has enough 50-ton fighters to put a squadron on every world in a subsector.

I guess I'm just babbling.

------------------
Dave "Dr. Skull" Nelson

 

[T. Foster]

This was discussed at some length a year or so back on the TML and the consensus was that the huge economies and naval budgets of HiPop worlds (figured from TCS) mean that even if ships are limited in size the HiPop worlds will still have the same amount of money to spend, and will just buy hundreds and thousands of small ships rather than dozens of big ones, arguably making the situation even worse in terms of hands-on Imperial control and/or the likelihood of a single shipful of PCs to have a significant impact on the 'world' - instead of a few squadrons sticking mainly to HiPop worlds and major trade/strategic routes, there will be gazillions of ships absolutely everywhere, and no comfortably neglected backwaters for PCs to play around in.

So, if everything else is left the same just putting an arbitrary cap on ship-size won't really help; you'll also need to restrict the massive economies and naval budgets of HiPop worlds somehow.

 

[DaveShayne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:

<snip>


So, if everything else is left the same just putting an arbitrary cap on ship-size won't really help; you'll also need to restrict the massive economies and naval budgets of HiPop worlds somehow. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most frequently sugested fix is to redefine the population digit codes so that say population codes of 8,9, and A are all gradations of the current pop code 8. or something similar. This rather drastically alters the population without having to completely rewrite all of the source material.

Personally I'm working on my own totally alternate setting that will have lower populations as a starting point. As well as a lower baseline TL (which also of course limits ship size.) IMTU a 75,000 ton Dreadnought will be a rare and frightening beast. Most ships will comfortably fall in the 100-5000 ton range of Book 2.

David Shayne

 

[Clay Bush]

Originally posted by DaveShayne:
The most frequently sugested fix is to redefine the population digit codes so that say population codes of 8,9, and A are all gradations of the current pop code 8. or something similar. This rather drastically alters the population without having to completely rewrite all of the source material.

The large fleet sizes is a problem if the fleets can disperse. A historical example is the British Fleet around the turn of the century.

When Admiral Fisher took over, they had one or more gunboats in every significant port outside the US and America. This showed the flag and protected commece from random piracy. There had not been piracy for a while because of all of them, but that wasn't a good reason to get rid of them, so they stayed and piracy remained rare...and you can see the circle.

Admiral Fisher had to concentrate the fleet in home waters, in modern combat vessels, because of Germany's building. So the gunboats were paid off, the crews transferred to the North Sea or retired, and you saw a lot fewer British naval ships around the world.

A similar "concentration" of ships-of-the-line during the Napoleonic Wars left small ships patrolling. The frigate was the largest patroller.

If you want to bring down the size of ships in the adventuring area, create a threat to put the big ships traveling and training and, perhaps, fighting together. Then your adventurers can be the sloops and brigs that took the prizes, made the raids, and carried around spies.

If the players want their adventures to influence the timeline, you have a to find a smaller setting. (I call it the small pond solution.) Trying to make the whole universe smaller has never worked for me.

 

[DaveShayne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clay Bush:

The large fleet sizes is a problem if the fleets can disperse. A historical example is the British Fleet around the turn of the century. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<snip>


High pop planets can support truly massive fleets of very large ships. It isn't very hard to toll out 10 or so ships of the line (say AHL sized or larger) to each planet and still maintain a large strike fleet.

Combine this with the High Guard combat rules that strongly favor big ships and there just doesn't seem to be a place for small fighting ships in a big universe.

David Shayne

 

[Sven]

Admiral Fisher had to concentrate the fleet in home waters, in modern combat vessels, because of Germany's building. So the gunboats were paid off, the crews transferred to the North Sea or retired, and you saw a lot fewer British naval ships around the world.

A similar "concentration" of ships-of-the-line during the Napoleonic Wars left small ships patrolling. The frigate was the largest patroller.

First of all, in naval combat, 100 small ships are not necessarily as good as one large one. To gain firm control in an area, there is no better way then sending a few large ships nobody else can cope with. But it is true that piracy is something you don't fight with battleships. For that you need smaller ships (frigates or Gazelle class escorts, for example) in a rather large number. In my opinion, this is the job of the subsector navy, while the imperial navy sees to the BIG ones.

Secondly, the characters will seldom be in a position to really influence imperial history, at least in the beginning of their careers. Therefore, you won't see much of the big navy anyway. But that doesn't mean it does not exist.

one more thing to the tactic of admiral Fisher. In 1905, the dreadnought was introduced, a class of ships immediately making all older ships of the line obsolete.
they were larger, better armed, but also more expensive. therefore, there were less. WW1 showed that pre-drednoughts were not really usable anymore( the british lost many to mines and submarines, for example)

Sven

------------------


[This message has been edited by Sven (edited 26 April 2001).]

 

[Murph]

Well, IMTU we solved this problem by lowering jump fuel requirements from 10%/Jn to 5%/Jn which made trade feasable between worlds. IT also allowed ships of greater than 400 tons to be economically viable in the Imperium. Not canon, but it worked.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I suppose it depends on what kind of campaign you want, but a 600-800 ton trader will not be a significant asset militarily or economicaly on any "civilized" world, but I don't see that as a problem. I take my inspiration for role playing from Eric Ambler, not "Doc" Smith. By analogy, as far back as the 18th century, most commerce was carried in 100-200 ton coasters, but inportant trade (like the tea trade) was carried in 1000 ton+ giants.

The small ships are not significant: that's the point. They make a living by speculating on their own cargoes or by going to obscure and dangerous ports where they can charge a premium for their services (and find Adventures). In that kind of place they can even be militarily significant, in a "Seven Samurai" situation.

But, like their eighteenth century equivalents, your 200 ton brig with swivel guns and a broadside of two, six-pounders, is a match for the pirate's junks but if a French frigate with a crew of two hundred and thirty-two twelve pounders shows up . . .

In a "Big Nation" war there is also a place for the small ship, in "Special Operations." Three movies, "The Guns of Navarone," "The Wackiest Ship in the Army" (hate that title), and "Attack Force Z" (IIRC) show how small craft can be useful because they are not militarily or economically significant.

 

[Murph]

Bob, you are correct. Remember the calculations done long ago about economic viability of ships larger than 400 tons? IIRC you calculated the bigger ships all lost money, which made interstellar trade unprofitable, and unfeasable. Once again IIRC you based this on the rules as issued in Book 2/3/Mechant Prince.

Changing the parameters of costs just a little made whopping big differences in economic viability for ships over 400 tons.

BTW my favorite ships are still the 400 ton patrol cruiser, and 800 ton Broadsword.

 

[DrSkull]

You actually like the Broadsword? Why?

I found the ship to be frustrating. It can't carry enough troops to be an effective mercenary troop carrier. I suppose it fights well enough but for the price, a couple of patrol cruisers would be better.

The double modular cutter deal just takes up too much room for the ship to be really useful.

I thought that the converted 600-ton Liner from "assignment: Vigilante" in MT was a much better ship for mercenary puproses.

------------------
Dave "Dr. Skull" Nelson

 

[Murph]

I like it as a revenue cutter/anti-piracy vessel. Remove the troop quarters and its a decent merchant vessel. It makes a nice adventuring party vessel, with supplimental characters as additional crew.

Another nice ship was the 800 ton explorer vessel in the FASA ship set.

The 100 ton scout was just a little too small, and the Free Trader didn't have enough legs. Although with dropping jump fuel from 10% to 5% per jump gave it a jump 2 capability and it became a better adventure ship.

 

[DrSkull]

Okay, I could see that.

I always tried to use it for mercenary units and found it to be inadequate, the number of troops is too small, the operating expense is too high and the cutter sheme is ungainly.

------------------
Dave "Dr. Skull" Nelson

 

[Clay Bush]

> economic viability of ships

I always found that the classic trade rules made speculative trade very profitable. You could carry a vehicle, say, and make up enough profit to cover all your expenses. With MegaTraveller, however, you saw a profit markup (or loss) per ton, and it flattened the top of the profit chart to make all trade unprofitable.

Also, it paid to always have a refining plant, because the difference in fuel costs was often decisive.

As for ship size, I found that the design rules minimized the ship's essentials (crew quarters, etc.) at 1,000 tons. I therefore worked with a variety of ships that size as my standard ships for feeder lines to the Xboat routes. (A feeder line works a small market, transporting its cargo and passengers to a hub.)

If I capped jump capacity at jump-2, most any size ship could be profitable. Anything above that required a subsidy. Some subsectors subsidized jump-3 ships, but the Imperium only subsidized jump-4 ships.

And the official designs? The Imperium distributes those designs for a nominal fee. So: simple craft designed to be built anywhere and easy to operate. They permitted lower tech level worlds to enter or stay in space, and contribute to the Imperium. But they were not highly regarded by the big corporations and were of no interest to the navies. (Exception: Dunkirk, Guns of Navaronne, Malaysian coast piracy patrol.)

 

[Murph]

[snip] CLay Bush said: If I capped jump capacity at jump-2, most any size ship could be profitable. Anything above that required a subsidy. Some subsectors subsidized jump-3 ships, but the Imperium only subsidized jump-4 ships.

But no entity will ever support a losing proposition for ever. Larger/faster ships need a reason to exist, and that reason is they are profitable. Basic costs are a bit too high in some ways, but one of the real problems is that only small J-1/J-2 ships make money.

This is a design flaw since the writers decided that the merchant rules would apply to PC vessels who were trading speculatively, and not the vast bulk carriers of the Megacorps.

By the same token, look at the costs involved in interstellar war, especiall troop transport costs, and you will find that war is not viable except really on a regimental level. But its a game.

 

[Murph]

It works as I described. The 600 ton privateer later published by GDW for the Twilight 2000/Aftermath game called Mega Traveller was even better as a merc ship. The Aslan 3,000 ton Assault carrier published by FASA was the best of the small ships.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrSkull:
Okay, I could see that.

I always tried to use it for mercenary units and found it to be inadequate, the number of troops is too small, the operating expense is too high and the cutter sheme is ungainly.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Murph]

Anyone remember the FASA ship plans? They had some really nice small 100-1000 ton vessels designed using High Guard. They had a 400 ton Destroyer Escort that packed a much better punch than the 400 Patrol Cruiser from Book 2.

The 100 ton Scout was nice, but I always felt that it was just a little too small for a party.

 

[DaveShayne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Murph:
The 100 ton Scout was nice, but I always felt that it was just a little too small for a party. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whaddaya mean too small for a party. Serve drinks on the bridge, the common room should be big enough for the dance floor, and if anybody wants a little *privacy* you always got the hold.

Oh you mean a party of Adventurers don't you?
My bad.

David Shayne

 

[Clay Bush]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Murph:
But no entity will ever support a losing proposition for ever. Larger/faster ships need a reason to exist, and that reason is they are profitable. Basic costs are a bit too high in some ways, but one of the real problems is that only small J-1/J-2 ships make money.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I simply assumed that the printed rules were for the small, speculative ships that players were expected to run. I assumed the big ships, with megacorporation scheduling and movement of a whoe factories output in one load (!), effectively benefitted from another economic trade rule set which I was not concerned with.

 

[Uncle Bob]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clay Bush:
I simply assumed that the printed rules were for the small, speculative ships that players were expected to run. I assumed the big ships, with megacorporation scheduling and movement of a whoe factories output in one load (!), effectively benefitted from another economic trade rule set which I was not concerned with.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfotunately, if that were true, one of two things must be true.
1) Megaships are ceaper to operate for somr reason. If that is true, spare cabins and the odd corner of cargo holds will soon put the independents out of business, at least on Wealthy and Industial worlds. Even if some megacorps don't like it, others will do it for the Cr.
2) or Megacorps are willing to pay a premium to ship bulk cargoes. If this were true, some bright boy would split his cargoes between a hundred Free Traders and save his company megacredits. Soon, they would all be doing it.

It is stil one of lifes mysteries.

 

[aramis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Unfotunately, if that were true, one of two things must be true.
1) Megaships are ceaper to operate for somr reason. If that is true, spare cabins and the odd corner of cargo holds will soon put the independents out of business, at least on Wealthy and Industial worlds. Even if some megacorps don't like it, others will do it for the Cr.
2) or Megacorps are willing to pay a premium to ship bulk cargoes. If this were true, some bright boy would split his cargoes between a hundred Free Traders and save his company megacredits. Soon, they would all be doing it.

It is stil one of lifes mysteries.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Under Merchant Price (ss3), Merchants (Bk7), MT, or even TNE, the trade system works well for ships through about 100K Tons Displacement. Under MT, ships of j3 CAN make a profit, especially if you have "Fuel Governors", so you get 2J2 out of it's fuel...

Under MT, ships in the 100-400 Td range make plenty of sense IF, and ONLY IF, there are BIG haulers on the mains.

And, likewise, the prices per ton (obviously set to make shipping marginal) have to have some basis for the X per jump rather than Y per parsec, or even the (stolen from Space Opera) X per trip + Y per parsec. IMTU, this is the pricing set by IM of Trade for reimbursement of imperial government issued tickets... and if you accept any , you have to use that standard pricing that trip... so people WON'T pay more, since they can always go to the IISS and buy Imperial Government ones...

Then again, MT has some mechanical differences which are important: 2J6 ships are possible (70% JFuel, 7% JDrive), but not practical at all..., and 3J5 as well(90% Fuel, 6% Drive)... a commercially viable 3J3 is doable (around 800 Td; 60% fuel, 4% JDrive, has about 100Td of cargo, and NO ammenities). The 3J3 can hit the islands with just enough cargo to make a profit once paid off. (It can't afford the payments... unless it operates solely on crew-shares, and nobody's greedy).

------------------
-aramis