Battery Formation Requirements

[BillDowns]

Don,

I have one question I would like clarified. I have not seen this one addressed, although i may have missed it.

The requirement for battery formation when there are 10 mounts of a weapon, does that mean turrets or weapons?

For example, 5 triple missile turrets - Must these be organized as batteries or can they be left as 15 individual weapons.

It's really an academic question for me - I would choose the batteries - likely 1 - anyway

Oh, and please, every one else, do not post anything unrelated to this specific question.

 

[mike wightman]

More than 10 weapons have to be organised as batteries.

Which brings to mind another interesting point.

Say I have 30 beam lasers in 10 triple turrets. I choose to group them as 3 batteries of 10 weapons each for #5 before TL adjustment. Which means 3 triple turrets plus 1 weapon from the spare turret per battery.

Odd.

 

[BillDowns]

Mike, do you have a reference to Don's errata for that point?

And, on your other point, I believe Don already stated batteries must be whole turrets - not partials. I Know I would not allow it.

 

[samuelvss]

I had always read it as the opposite, requiring 1 battery of 10 turrets. That was, of course, before law school. It would be the most rational rule, despite how it may have been inelegantly stated in canon.

The canonical designs, does anyone know how this was applied, in AHL for instance?

 

[mike wightman]

Mike, do you have a reference to Don's errata for that point?

And, on your other point, I believe Don already stated batteries must be whole turrets - not partials. I Know I would not allow it.

It's not errata - it's clearly printed in LBB5 HG 2nd edition.

Unfortunately for Don's statement it would require a redesign of the HG weapon factor tables

(never did understand why it says 10 instead of 12).

 

[TWTP]

(never did understand why it says 10 instead of 12).

I believe they used a Logarithmic scale, to determine the weapons factors.

 

[BillDowns]

Well, this is all getting off what I was intending to ask.

Let me rephrase: with 5 triple turrets, which contain 15 weapons, must batteries be formed?

And, really, I am just looking for a ruling from Don.

 

[robject]

Well, this is all getting off what I was intending to ask.

Let me rephrase: with 5 triple turrets, which contain 15 weapons, must batteries be formed?

And, really, I am just looking for a ruling from Don.

Heh heh heh... were you expecting just Don to answer? O ho ho ho.

 

[Matt123]

Heh heh heh... were you expecting just Don to answer? O ho ho ho.

lol! & with that in...

5 turrets holding 15 weapons.

If mount = turret, no you do not have to group them. There are less than 10 turrets 'of a type', so 5 turret batteries is ok.

(don't ask me what a turret 'type' is, I'm perplexed on that one.)

If mount = weapon (more correctly a mount for a weapon), yes you must group them as there are more than 10 weapons of a type, so you cannot have 15 laser batteries in those 5 turrets.

 

[pendragonman]

Well, this is all getting off what I was intending to ask.

Let me rephrase: with 5 triple turrets, which contain 15 weapons, must batteries be formed?

And, really, I am just looking for a ruling from Don.

Not enough information to answer clearly. What size ship are these five turrets part of? Is the total number of turrets more than ten?

A further question you must ask yourself. What advantage do you get if you do not make them in to batteries? The only way the batteries question matters is if you are using HG. If you are using HG, if you do not make batteries you have a USP rating of 1 (2 if tech 13+). With agility and computer equal, you have a "to hit" of 6+. At factor 1 or 2, you need at least a 14+ to penetrate even a factor 1 repulsor, and a 9+ to penetrate a level 1 nuc damper. Yes, you have 15 shots. 58% will be on target but none will penetrate the repulsor without an edge in your favor in computer.

Now, suppose you do declare 5 batteries, 1 for each turret. You have three missiles in each battery, for a factor of 2, 3 in tl 13+. You hit on a 5+, but no help with the repulsor. But all 5 turrets in one battery gives you factor 4, 5 in tl 13+, hit on a 4+ and you penetrate a factor 1 repulsor on an 11+ with no computer edge.

In HG, there is no advantage to not forming the batteries as listed in the HG book, and no advantage to not forming the biggest battery possible from that weapon type.

 

[dean]

The question raised by Bill is essentially the question Matt and I have been begging to get a ruling on since this whole thing started (and, as I understand it, started again for the 2nd or 3rd or umpteenth time ).

And, in Don's own answer in the Errata thread he states outside of the official errata ruling that the errata (to paraphrase) carefully avoided using the term "mount" within it.

So, I am personally uncertain if this question will actually receive an official response.

Heck, I'd be willing to accept an official response of "We don't give a damn about that!" Then at least we'd all know that, officially, no one is strictly 'right' or 'wrong'.

But it'd sure be better to know for sure.

 

[dean]

More than 10 weapons have to be organised as batteries.

Which brings to mind another interesting point.

Say I have 30 beam lasers in 10 triple turrets. I choose to group them as 3 batteries of 10 weapons each for #5 before TL adjustment. Which means 3 triple turrets plus 1 weapon from the spare turret per battery.

Odd.

Not odd. Illegal under the rules. If all weapons of a type must be grouped into batteries, all weapons must share the same USP factor.

The "spare" must be grouped, and does not share the same factor, thus is illegal. Q.E.D.

In addition, a "battery may be as few as one turret.."; a spare weapon in a turret is not "as few as one turret" (being 1/3 of a turret), so is illegal two different ways.

 

[aramis]

Well, this is all getting off what I was intending to ask.

Let me rephrase: with 5 triple turrets, which contain 15 weapons, must batteries be formed?

And, really, I am just looking for a ruling from Don.

If using HG combat, you have to form batteries anyway.

If you don't exceed 10 mounts (turrets) you don't have to form proper batteries of minimum size of one full turret.

Which means you COULD keep that 15 weapons as

• 15xfactor 1 of 1 BLas each
• 5xFactor 3 of 1 turret each
• 1xFactor 6 of 5 turrets

Note that any ship big enough to mount 10+ turrets is too big for the mixed turret rule.

But 10 triple beams would have to be formed into proper batteries...Pick one of

• 10xFactor 3 of 1 turret each
• 5xFactor 4 of two turrets each
• 2xFactor 6 of five turrets each
• 1xFactor 8 of ten turrets

 

[mike wightman]

Well, this is all getting off what I was intending to ask.

Let me rephrase: with 5 triple turrets, which contain 15 weapons, must batteries be formed?

And, really, I am just looking for a ruling from Don.

Yes they must - read High Guard.

Page 25 - Explanation:

'is the number of weapons required to achieve the value'

Page 25 - Weight:

'Weight is the tonnage of the turret containing the type of ordnance described, regardless of the number of weapons of that type mounted in it...' etc

Page 29 - Batteries:

'Ships with more than 10 mounts of the same type must group them into batteries'

 

[mike wightman]

Not odd. Illegal under the rules. If all weapons of a type must be grouped into batteries, all weapons must share the same USP factor.

The "spare" must be grouped, and does not share the same factor, thus is illegal. Q.E.D.

In addition, a "battery may be as few as one turret.."; a spare weapon in a turret is not "as few as one turret" (being 1/3 of a turret), so is illegal two different ways.

Nope - not illegal.

I have 30 lasers, I can arrange the batteries in any way I want.

I choose to group them in 10s which is available from the USP chart (I still think it was meant to be a 12).

 

[atpollard]

Nope - not illegal.

I have 30 lasers, I can arrange the batteries in any way I want.

I choose to group them in 10s which is available from the USP chart (I still think it was meant to be a 12).

There is no rule requiring triple turrets; 30 lasers could also be 15 turrets of 2 lasers each, which could be divided into 3 groups of 5 turrets for 10 weapons per battery.

 

[pendragonman]

There is no rule requiring triple turrets; 30 lasers could also be 15 turrets of 2 lasers each, which could be divided into 3 groups of 5 turrets for 10 weapons per battery.

However, if you are using trip turrets, as originally posited, then you cannot group 10 weapons together as that would mean a fractional turret, and a battery cannot be comprised of a fractional turret.

 

[dean]

Nope - not illegal.

I have 30 lasers, I can arrange the batteries in any way I want.

I choose to group them in 10s which is available from the USP chart (I still think it was meant to be a 12).

No, you can't. There are rules right there in that section that tell you how they must be arranged.

More then ten mounts of the same type you MUST arrange the weapons in batteries. This certainly appears to mean ALL the weapons of that type. Not just most or some of them.

If you arrange in batteries, then ALL batteries MUST share the same factor. If you have one lonely laser sitting in a triple turret not assigned to a battery then you have not arranged the weapons into batteries, therefore illegal.

If you have a battery with few weapons than equals a turret, then you have not met the "as few as one turret" requirement, and is thus illegal.

If I am wrong, please explain how those explicit statements in the batteries section affect the game, designs, and your interpretation.

 

[BillDowns]

Guys, please take that off-line. That was not the point of my original post.

 

[mike wightman]

No, you can't. There are rules right there in that section that tell you how they must be arranged.

More then ten mounts of the same type you MUST arrange the weapons in batteries. This certainly appears to mean ALL the weapons of that type. Not just most or some of them.

If you arrange in batteries, then ALL batteries MUST share the same factor. If you have one lonely laser sitting in a triple turret not assigned to a battery then you have not arranged the weapons into batteries, therefore illegal.

If you have a battery with few weapons than equals a turret, then you have not met the "as few as one turret" requirement, and is thus illegal.

If I am wrong, please explain how those explicit statements in the batteries section affect the game, designs, and your interpretation.

You misunderstand what I mean.

An example may help with a fictitious 1000t ship.

I have 30 beam lasers mounted in 10 triple turrets [legal]

I choose to organize them as 3 equal sized batteries of #5, that's 10 lasers per battery as per the table in the rules [legal]

But the only way to do that is 3 x 3 triple turrets plus 1 laser from the spare turret.

No rule I can find prevents this - it's just odd.

Like I said - I think the 10 is a typo for 12.