Antiagathics and rejuvenation

[Ulsyus]

See that this would probably have quite a lot of social side effects:

1. As someone pointed, an older people society (even if they appear younger) is likely to become more conservative, probably leading to stagnance
2. If people don't get Elder and die, unless there's some way to avoid procreation, population wil lgrow out of control and scarcity of ressourdes
3. If people does not see life a something ephimeral, they are unlikely to risk their lives. So you will have less people wanting to work in high risk Jobs (as military, firemen, etc).
4. Sure there are more of them, some of them I cannot think about right now, and others that can only be discussed in the Pit...

The combination of points 2 and 3 above gives us an interesting situation, where the resources are scarce (probably leading to fight for them) while people do not want to risk their lives (so limiting this same fighting).

With advancing technology, particularly maker technology and robotics/automation, isn't there the possibility of some parts of the 3I becoming post-scarcity societies within the wider Imperium? Utopian wonderlands where people can live as long as they want?

But if people can have whatever they need, and live as long as they chose, then the thing of value would still be that which they simply cannot have.

If honour, service and duty are cherished concepts at the heart of Imperial culture drawn from the dawn of the 3I (don't throw things at me for mentioning this again...) then the honours that come from military service could be of value as they couldn't be purchased. Backing up a personality could provide a bit of a safety net, but the sort of person who would throw away their life for glory wouldn't be the sort of individual a military organisation would see to include in it's ranks.

People could still chose to work, as it provides meaning.

Long life doesn't have to mean immortality. It doesn't have to mean uncontrollable population growth (hands up if you've had enough kids for more than one lifetime), but there's no doubt it would bring plenty of social and cultural dilemmas to crack.

 

[aramis]

Much of this presupposes the treatment is available to the general population and that it does everything it needs to do. It's not at all clear to me that stopping cellular aging is going to give you the hip joints of a 20 year old, undo the fatty mess we make of our circulatory systems, persuade your prostate to shrink to a more comfortable size or stop any of the other age-associated conditions that crop up as you get older.

Lengthening the telomeres of mice did reduce the risks of metabolic disorders linked to aging.

Only one human subject to date known; too early to tell, but she's had no apparent difficulties from it.

 

[Carlobrand]

...If people don't get Elder and die, unless there's some way to avoid procreation, population wil lgrow out of control and scarcity of ressourdes ...

Maybe not. We've seen populations stabilize and even start shrinking where people felt secure and the standard of living was good. Raising children is hard work, and expensive, and it invariably involves a lot of sacrifice. I can see people deciding to have one or two and then putting that part of their lives behind them to focus on their own goals and ambitions, if it looks like they've got lots of time for themselves.

Lengthening the telomeres of mice did reduce the risks of metabolic disorders linked to aging.

Only one human subject to date known; too early to tell, but she's had no apparent difficulties from it.

Something like prostate enlargement results from an overproduction of cells. Perhaps lengthening the telomeres could influence that, but if it doesn't then you've got a man who's got to go through the rest of his life without a prostate, once it gets so big that it has to be removed, unless they can find a way to stop or treat it.

 

[Thot]

I'm not so optimist as you are. Even complete understanding of underlying mechanisms is not a garantee for a cure to be found, and too many factors are envolved in ageing.

Also, never forget any treatment has side effects, and that the body is able to develop immnity or tolerance to any treatment. So, I'd expect those treatments to be usable for a limited span of time. They could make lives quite longer, but not forever.

There are quite a lot of assumptions built into your assessments here.

First, what makes you think there are many factors? As it stands, everything points our scientists to that it is one basic factor - which is why different mammalian species have quite the similar life expectancy amongst their individuals. They have even identified a biological flock (I am not talking about telomeres here) that quite precisely determines how old you are. It may even be that this is the coordination mechanism the body uses to have all cells be of almost exactly the same age. In that case, all we'd have to do is send different coordination signals. (Also, look at probiosis research. Fascinating subject, one that might even make low-tech settings capable of indefinite life extension, though at a terrible price.)

Second, remember we are talking about one of the most prevalent dreams mankind has had ever since the dawn of time. Hell, the OLDEST SURVIVING PIECE OF SOLOMANI LITERATURE (Gilgamesh) literally has the aging issue as its core theme. So the motivation to find a cure is enormous.

Third, of course complete (!) understanding leads to a cure. That has been our experience ever since we started understanding. I don't see why it would not apply here.

Everything points to aging being an evolutionary trick lifeforms perform in order to get rid of parasites economically, and develop new abilities as a species, but that doesn't apply to creatures that have shed biological evolution in favor of the much more powerful cultural one, complete with the ability to utterly purge parasites and to learn new abilities (or make appropriate equipment). So the only compelling reason to keep this feature does not apply to sophonts, and as it is a feature, it can be switched off once we know where.

See that this would probably have quite a lot of social side effects:

1. As someone pointed, an older people society (even if they appear younger) is likely to become more conservative, probably leading to stagnance
2. If people don't get Elder and die, unless there's some way to avoid procreation, population wil lgrow out of control and scarcity of ressourdes
3. If people does not see life a something ephimeral, they are unlikely to risk their lives. So you will have less people wanting to work in high risk Jobs (as military, firemen, etc).
4. Sure there are more of them, some of them I cannot think about right now, and others that can only be discussed in the Pit...

The combination of points 2 and 3 above gives us an interesting situation, where the resources are scarce (probably leading to fight for them) while people do not want to risk their lives (so limiting this same fighting).

In the Third Imperium, all they'd have to do is settle the rest of the galaxy, outside of Charted Space. Once they have done that to the edges of the galaxy, other solutions will come to mind.

Regarding the stagnancy: Isn't that precisely what the Third Imperium is, with its less than 1% growth rate and technological progress that is measured in centuries, not decades?

 

[Thot]

[...]
Something like prostate enlargement results from an overproduction of cells. Perhaps lengthening the telomeres could influence that, but if it doesn't then you've got a man who's got to go through the rest of his life without a prostate, once it gets so big that it has to be removed, unless they can find a way to stop or treat it.

But why wouldn't they?

 

[kilemall]

A new thought model came to mind for this topic.

There is already an anagathics model in literature and movies that posits individuals that can live 100s or 1000s of years at some...... cost...

Vampires.

What if the price of anagathics is actually the life of another, independent of whether its specifically vampirism? Or there are prices like deadly 'allergic reactions' to garlic, sunlight, etc.?

Also, many modern vampire movies posit a lack of moral center beyond practical 'herd management', would anagathic users develop an attitude about harvesting their source material?

The SOC ranking of the game could have some VERY dark notes in this scenario.

 

[aramis]

But why wouldn't they?

Prostate enlargement has a lot of low correlation findings; only one is strong enough to be labeled clearly as causal (Prostate Cancer).

Cancer, however, falls into at least 3 groups under current science -

• Caused by a virus
• Caused by random genetic damage
• Unknown cause

It's worth noting that the science says a lot of chemicals that have high correlations with cancer are in the range of "contributory" under scientific understanding, not direct causation. And even having the virus doesn't guarantee one gets the relevant cancer.

EG: Human Papiloma Virus. Cervical Cancer. some 70% of cases have HPV. But some people with HPV do not get cancer.

 

[mike wightman]

A new thought model came to mind for this topic.

There is already an anagathics model in literature and movies that posits individuals that can live 100s or 1000s of years at some...... cost...

Vampires.

What if the price of anagathics is actually the life of another, independent of whether its specifically vampirism? Or there are prices like deadly 'allergic reactions' to garlic, sunlight, etc.?

Also, many modern vampire movies posit a lack of moral center beyond practical 'herd management', would anagathic users develop an attitude about harvesting their source material?

The SOC ranking of the game could have some VERY dark notes in this scenario.

See Jupiter Ascending...

 

[Barrel]

Maybe not. We've seen populations stabilize and even start shrinking where people felt secure and the standard of living was good. Raising children is hard work, and expensive, and it invariably involves a lot of sacrifice. I can see people deciding to have one or two and then putting that part of their lives behind them to focus on their own goals and ambitions, if it looks like they've got lots of time for themselves.



Something like prostate enlargement results from an overproduction of cells. Perhaps lengthening the telomeres could influence that, but if it doesn't then you've got a man who's got to go through the rest of his life without a prostate, once it gets so big that it has to be removed, unless they can find a way to stop or treat it.

Or get an artificial one. Larry Niven had something like that in his Known Space series, in A Gift from Earth, I think.

 

[Thot]

A new thought model came to mind for this topic.

There is already an anagathics model in literature and movies that posits individuals that can live 100s or 1000s of years at some...... cost...

Vampires.

Probiosis research is your googling subject.

What if the price of anagathics is actually the life of another, [...]

For a high tech society, that seems quite far-fetched. Could work as a fantasy story, though.

 

[kilemall]

See Jupiter Ascending...

Ya, but that's more mass planetary harvesting, and the sheep apparently don't know it's coming until it's too late.

Certainly the amorality amongst the noble rulers/'business owners' AND their customers is present.

All those heavy pop OTU Core Worlds, that is a LOT of potential supply and customers.

I was getting more at the vampire attitude and how reviled and hunted they are, but I suppose they are practicing an individual form of attack/exploitation.

If it was institutionalized by SOC, higher SOC gets the stuff and lowest SOC provides feedstock, could really make that stat pop as an adventure/character driver.

 

[kilemall]

Probiosis research is your googling subject.




For a high tech society, that seems quite far-fetched. Could work as a fantasy story, though.

I'm not interested in creating space vampires or that modern stand-by the vampire virus, but more the effects on the psyche of being effectively an anagathic parasite, living so long AND dependent on their 'thirst'.

Assuming no one time gene therapy, I would expect anagathic people to develop a need for whatever the stuff is that does it.

 

[Carlobrand]

I'm not interested in creating space vampires or that modern stand-by the vampire virus, but more the effects on the psyche of being effectively an anagathic parasite, living so long AND dependent on their 'thirst'.

Assuming no one time gene therapy, I would expect anagathic people to develop a need for whatever the stuff is that does it.

In a culture able to create clones, whatever the stuff is, if it has to come from a human body, is likely to be from a clone. Ethical considerations are minimal if the clone is grown without a brain or - if it has a brain - is never allowed to achieve consciousness. Certainly the howling masses won't care what you do with your own clones.

 

[Ulsyus]

Assuming no one time gene therapy, I would expect anagathic people to develop a need for whatever the stuff is that does it.

Given an assumption, the info requirement could read:

at what point would genetic manipulation and advanced medicine allow for a single treatment to prevent the detrimental effects of physical aging?

The BBB on p501 lists TL 13 as being particular for this:

TL-13 Effective Biological Sciences. Cloning, bioengineering, and the forced-growth process makes geneering possible.

...while the table on p505 under the Medicine column simply lists Anagathics. The method of applying the treatment is not described. Given the TL Stages mechanics on p498-500, anagathics would be available from TL12 (in the experimental stage) so your assumption may on the mark at that or the point one or two stages after it.

By the time it reaches TL 15 though it's been in use for two TL stages, so my assumption is that at that point it would have a reliability and safety (check out the QREBS ratings) that would reduce the risk of using it.

What is not written is how the effect is achieved. Wouldn't that possibly change as the technology advanced?

 

[Thot]

I'm not interested in creating space vampires or that modern stand-by the vampire virus, but more the effects on the psyche of being effectively an anagathic parasite, living so long AND dependent on their 'thirst'.

That may seem like an interesting moral dilemma, but in a world were people understand what they are doing, they will find solutions that do not harm anyone.

Assuming no one time gene therapy, I would expect anagathic people to develop a need for whatever the stuff is that does it.

Well, such a need would undoubtedly exists, as a medical fact. However, the supply for whatever it is would quite quickly be met using simple biotechnology: Gengineered (or simply selectively bred) microorganisms that create the substance in a bioreactor. This is how a lot of medication is produced even today.