Antiagathics and rejuvenation

[Thot]

I know, there is a good reason why humaniti hasn't solved the riddle of rejuvenation in the OTU:

It might make society too alien for players

But it may very well be that the first of the above reasons to not have it could... vanish in a few years.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...t-critical-step-in-dna-repair-cellular-aging/

"“Our results unveil a key mechanism in cellular degeneration and aging, but beyond that they point to a therapeutic avenue to halt and reverse age-related and radiation-induced DNA damage,” said senior author David Sinclair, professor in the Department of Genetics at HMS, co-director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for the Biology of Aging, and professor at the University of New South Wales School of Medicine in Sydney."


So, how would Imperial history have unfolded it rejuvenation technology, without all the negative side effects of classic Traveller antiagathics, had been made available to the Vilani at least after the Nth Interstellar War?

 

[kilemall]

Well it certainly would promote the conservative approach the First Imperium was known for, as powerful people could be in place for 100 years plus to enforce it.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Well it certainly would promote the conservative approach the First Imperium was known for, as powerful people could be in place for 100 years plus to enforce it.

The catch though is the Vilani medical tech would never have gotten to the level required. Even in the article it says a many of the interactions were found by cross comparison and testing with other species. Vilani didn't have that benefit.

The Soli's on the other hand...

 

[flykiller]

So, how would Imperial history have unfolded it rejuvenation technology, without all the negative side effects of classic Traveller antiagathics, had been made available to the Vilani

Forbidden Science of the Second Imperium
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=1023

 

[Thot]

Hm, but wouldn't at least the Solomani use this? The way it looks right now, this technology will be available way before the canonical invention of the Jump Drive on Terra, which means by the Nth Interstellar war it will have been something every Solomani was simply used to. It is hard to imagine they'd give that up.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I know, there is a good reason why humaniti hasn't solved the riddle of rejuvenation in the OTU: It might make society too alien for players.

There is a reason why immortal lifeforms are either non-existent or incredibly rare. Why have children or bother reproducing if there isn't a huge motivation?

Malthus and others become far more of a worry without a little built-in obsolescence.

*** Why have history teachers if YOU were there? ***

So many questions...

So, how would Imperial history have unfolded rejuvenation technology, without all the negative side effects of classic Traveller antiagathics, had it been made available to the Vilani at least after the Nth Interstellar War?

The Interstellar Wars were turf battles that turned into a culture war...

I'm not sure that a holy grail like perfective anagathics might have changed the equation.

TRAV WIKI LINK: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Anagathics

Positive vibes to all!

Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[mike wightman]

Look again at the OTU, especially T5 and MWM's novel.

Personalities can be transferred to computers and wafers and downloaded into other hosts temporarily, possibly permanently into a cloned body.

The rich can afford anagathic treatments, and those same treatments are offered as an incentive for colonists with vital skills.

 

[LeperColony]

Look again at the OTU, especially T5 and MWM's novel.

Personalities can be transferred to computers and downloaded into other hosts temporarily, possibly permanently into a cloned body.

The rich can afford anagathic treatments, and those same treatments are offered as an incentive for colonists with vital skills.

To be fair, those do seem like more recent developments, in terms of the real life evolution of Traveller as a setting.

It's always been my impression that Traveller has taken a relatively pessimistic view of the possible limits to life extension (and, for that matter, computing power and hardware).

 

[Thot]

There is a reason why immortal lifeforms are either non-existent or incredibly rare. Why have children or bother reproducing if there isn't a huge motivation?

Malthus and others become far more of a worry without a little built-in obsolescence.

Well, but the 3rd Imperium and its predecessors were extremely conservative, given the galaxy they lived in. That would fit in with ancient nobles clinging on to power and outdated views, resulting in the extremely slow economic growth the Imperium has always known.

*** Why have history teachers if YOU were there? ***
[...]

Because 1. human memory is fallible and 2. not everyone will be that old.

The Interstellar Wars were turf battles that turned into a culture war...

I'm not sure that a holy grail like perfective anagathics might have changed the equation.
[...]

Well, I am rather sure that, as long as the Vilani count as human, they will want to live longer, so they would probably just adopted that Terran technology and ignore all cognitive dissonance from that.

 

[Thot]

As a plothook for a Traveller game: An archeologist finds evidence that the ancient Solomani had a cure for aging altogether, knowledge which was apparently surpressed during the Rule Of Man. He hires a crew of brave explorers to help him uncover the secret about the cure and its suppression, only to be plunged into an ancient conspiracy that is still very much alive today, and which involved the highest echelons of the Imperial nobility...

 

[SanDragon]

*cough*

The Vilani are known for being long-lived and it's not unheard of for one to live as long as 200 years...

 

[Carlobrand]

Much of this presupposes the treatment is available to the general population and that it does everything it needs to do. It's not at all clear to me that stopping cellular aging is going to give you the hip joints of a 20 year old, undo the fatty mess we make of our circulatory systems, persuade your prostate to shrink to a more comfortable size or stop any of the other age-associated conditions that crop up as you get older.

It's likely that, to extend life significantly, one would need a variety of different treatments addressing different factors of the aging process, which is likely to make exceptional longevity a "lifestyles of the rich and famous" thing. You might be able to maintain a decent quality of life into your 90's - or your bicentennial, for the Vilani - but getting the full makeover may be beyond the means of the bulk of society.

I can see that development fostering a very entrenched class system. Those who hold the reins of power will live very long lives. They will have a strong incentive to use their power to ensure the success of their families, for long-lived children and grandchildren will be their strongest and most capable allies. If you at 250 are sitting as the head of your clan, and your children and grandchildren have the accumulated experience of two centuries or more to draw on in pursuit of the family ambitions - those that were smart and capable enough to live that long without getting themselves chopped from the gene pool or banished from the family or deciding to go their own way - you've got a very competent organization at your fingertips. And so do your competitors.

Most critically, the life you lead is going to be very, very different from the lives led by the rest of humanity, the comparatively short-lived masses who work for you and generate your wealth. You are in a very real sense alien to them and they to you. You aren't really going to understand the mind-set of people who split their lives between earning a paycheck and spending it on entertainments, whose greatest ambition might be a secure future for their kids and a comfortable retirement, while you and your inner circle work out how best to advance the fortunes of a family cartel run by multi-centenarians and vying against other cartels of similar composition.

 

[Lycanorukke]

It's not at all clear to me that stopping cellular aging is going to give you the hip joints of a 20 year old, undo the fatty mess we make of our circulatory systems, persuade your prostate to shrink to a more comfortable size or stop any of the other age-associated conditions that crop up as you get older.

Technically they could stop some age related effects - degradation of bones, muscle, etc. But the unrelated effects could have more serious consequences as they have more time to build up - eg. Normally you died of age before the cholesterol or neural degradation mess you up, but now it has a few more decades to wreak havoc.

Which opens the more sinister idea for early anagathics - sure you don't age, but you need replacement bits - and so you end up looking like a bad jigsaw puzzle as bits have to be replaced. Maybe they can clone them, maybe they can't (a side effect of anagathics?)in which case another source of bits would be needed.

And on early anagathics - just think of the problems that many experimental drugs have had.

'Modern' TL 15 anagathics are pop a pill (and pay a lot of money) no problem - but the early ones? Do they kill you? Cause rampant cancer? Cause some bits to stay young while other bits age? Turn you into a drooling but long lived invalid? Do they even really work at all?

Are you feeling lucky?

 

[mike wightman]

Much of this presupposes the treatment is available to the general population and that it does everything it needs to do.

Good point, the cost of the treatment will limit it to only those in the wealth bracket who can afford it, or afford to gift it...

It's not at all clear to me that stopping cellular aging is going to give you the hip joints of a 20 year old, undo the fatty mess we make of our circulatory systems, persuade your prostate to shrink to a more comfortable size or stop any of the other age-associated conditions that crop up as you get older.

I know in my case the cause of my decreased fitness and health over the last eight years has been lack of exercise.

It's likely that, to extend life significantly, one would need a variety of different treatments addressing different factors of the aging process, which is likely to make exceptional longevity a "lifestyles of the rich and famous" thing.

I agree, it could also be offered via a lottery to the masses, or it could be a pension plan you pay into for the whole of your working life.
Think of the society that can turn its 65 year old back into a 20 year old - and use up their entire life savings so they have to start work again to pay for the next extension...

I can see that development fostering a very entrenched class system. Those who hold the reins of power will live very long lives. They will have a strong incentive to use their power to ensure the success of their families, for long-lived children and grandchildren will be their strongest and most capable allies. If you at 250 are sitting as the head of your clan, and your children and grandchildren have the accumulated experience of two centuries or more to draw on in pursuit of the family ambitions - those that were smart and capable enough to live that long without getting themselves chopped from the gene pool or banished from the family or deciding to go their own way - you've got a very competent organization at your fingertips. And so do your competitors.

You just gave me the background to my next Culture scenario...

Most critically, the life you lead is going to be very, very different from the lives led by the rest of humanity, the comparatively short-lived masses who work for you and generate your wealth. You are in a very real sense alien to them and they to you. You aren't really going to understand the mind-set of people who split their lives between earning a paycheck and spending it on entertainments, whose greatest ambition might be a secure future for their kids and a comfortable retirement, while you and your inner circle work out how best to advance the fortunes of a family cartel run by multi-centenarians and vying against other cartels of similar composition.

I can't reply to this without breaking the politics rules lol.
I will say that such a caste/class/elite system has many examples in sci fi - you could even apply it to noble families in Traveller

 

[Thot]

*cough*

The Vilani are known for being long-lived and it's not unheard of for one to live as long as 200 years...

Well, but compared to applied Solomani biotech, those 200 years might actually count as a rather short lifespan.

 

[Thot]

Much of this presupposes the treatment is available to the general population and that it does everything it needs to do.

The treatment that will be available by the end of this century? I don't quite see even a possibility for why not.

It's not at all clear to me that stopping cellular aging is going to give you the hip joints of a 20 year old, undo the fatty mess we make of our circulatory systems, persuade your prostate to shrink to a more comfortable size or stop any of the other age-associated conditions that crop up as you get older.

All of that would just be biological programming work. Once the underlying mechanisms are completely understood, a cure for each and every aspect is inevitable.

Also, note that shorter-lived animals suffer all these problems earlier, so we can conclude from that that cellular aging is in fact the root cause for all of this.

It's likely that, to extend life significantly, one would need a variety of different treatments addressing different factors of the aging process, which is likely to make exceptional longevity a "lifestyles of the rich and famous" thing. You might be able to maintain a decent quality of life into your 90's - or your bicentennial, for the Vilani - but getting the full makeover may be beyond the means of the bulk of society.

In a high.tech society, why would it? How much it actually costs will mostly depend on the scale of its application - the more people buy this (and who wouldn't), the cheaper it gets. Much like penicillin, which used to be a quite expensive drug int eh 1940's, and is next to free today.

I can see that development fostering a very entrenched class system.

Oh yes, one with a hereditary nobility even.

Those who hold the reins of power will live very long lives. They will have a strong incentive to use their power to ensure the success of their families, for long-lived children and grandchildren will be their strongest and most capable allies. If you at 250 are sitting as the head of your clan, and your children and grandchildren have the accumulated experience of two centuries or more to draw on in pursuit of the family ambitions - those that were smart and capable enough to live that long without getting themselves chopped from the gene pool or banished from the family or deciding to go their own way - you've got a very competent organization at your fingertips. And so do your competitors.

Absolutely. This would explain the whole political system of the Imperium quite nicely. Long lives will make people more conservative, and stabilize existing power structures.

However, the family or a given individual might loose interest in front stage politics after a while. (So maybe Cleon I is still alive?)

BUT there is little reason to assume that non-nobles wouldn't want to live forever, too. Thus, I'd assume that everybody lives until they die a violent or accidental death after a few centuries or millennia - with the nobles being just more capable, well-connected, and wealthy.

 

[kilemall]

Most critically, the life you lead is going to be very, very different from the lives led by the rest of humanity, the comparatively short-lived masses who work for you and generate your wealth. You are in a very real sense alien to them and they to you. You aren't really going to understand the mind-set of people who split their lives between earning a paycheck and spending it on entertainments, whose greatest ambition might be a secure future for their kids and a comfortable retirement, while you and your inner circle work out how best to advance the fortunes of a family cartel run by multi-centenarians and vying against other cartels of similar composition.

I'd say this is the world of Jupiter Ascending.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE42Xc_laYU

 

[Thot]

Technically they could stop some age related effects - degradation of bones, muscle, etc.

And everything else. It is all just a biological program, after all. Compared to an FTL jump drive, it seems rather trivial, actually.

[...]
'Modern' TL 15 anagathics are pop a pill (and pay a lot of money) no problem - but the early ones? Do they kill you? Cause rampant cancer? Cause some bits to stay young while other bits age? Turn you into a drooling but long lived invalid? Do they even really work at all?

Are you feeling lucky?

Personally, I'd go for a little less silliness in my campaigns. The Solomani of 2100 will have solved all those problems, in all likelihood.

 

[McPerth]

The treatment that will be available by the end of this century? I don't quite see even a possibility for why not.

All of that would just be biological programming work. Once the underlying mechanisms are completely understood, a cure for each and every aspect is inevitable.

Also, note that shorter-lived animals suffer all these problems earlier, so we can conclude from that that cellular aging is in fact the root cause for all of this.

I'm not so optimist as you are. Even complete understanding of underlying mechanisms is not a garantee for a cure to be found, and too many factors are envolved in ageing.

Also, never forget any treatment has side effects, and that the body is able to develop immnity or tolerance to any treatment. So, I'd expect those treatments to be usable for a limited span of time. They could make lives quite longer, but not forever.

In a high.tech society, why would it? How much it actually costs will mostly depend on the scale of its application - the more people buy this (and who wouldn't), the cheaper it gets. Much like penicillin, which used to be a quite expensive drug int eh 1940's, and is next to free today.

(...)

Absolutely. This would explain the whole political system of the Imperium quite nicely. Long lives will make people more conservative, and stabilize existing power structures.

BUT there is little reason to assume that non-nobles wouldn't want to live forever, too. Thus, I'd assume that everybody lives until they die a violent or accidental death after a few centuries or millennia - with the nobles being just more capable, well-connected, and wealthy.

See that this would probably have quite a lot of social side effects:

1. As someone pointed, an older people society (even if they appear younger) is likely to become more conservative, probably leading to stagnance
2. If people don't get Elder and die, unless there's some way to avoid procreation, population wil lgrow out of control and scarcity of ressourdes
3. If people does not see life a something ephimeral, they are unlikely to risk their lives. So you will have less people wanting to work in high risk Jobs (as military, firemen, etc).
4. Sure there are more of them, some of them I cannot think about right now, and others that can only be discussed in the Pit...

The combination of points 2 and 3 above gives us an interesting situation, where the resources are scarce (probably leading to fight for them) while people do not want to risk their lives (so limiting this same fighting).

 

[Carlobrand]

...
I can't reply to this without breaking the politics rules lol.
I will say that such a caste/class/elite system has many examples in sci fi - you could even apply it to noble families in Traveller

Start a new thread in the pit. Cut and paste whatever's relevant from here to the post there. Might be fun.