A world, its citizens, and the Imperium

[Spenser TR]

Let's say a world is a member of the Imperium - it pays taxes, is the residence of a few landed nobles, has an SPA-run starport, Imperial Credits are legal currency there, and the government respects Imperial High Law.

In this Traveller universe, could this memberworld government ( or one of them, in a balkanized situation ) restrict its people from joining an Imperial service such as the Navy or the Scouts?

Can such a government restrict its citizens from travelling offworld?

Can it legally keep or hinder Imperial authorities from talking to its citizens, gather information, investigate crimes, and all of that?

 

[Timerover51]

Let's say a world is a member of the Imperium - it pays taxes, is the residence of a few landed nobles, has an SPA-run starport, Imperial Credits are legal currency there, and the government respects Imperial High Law.

In this Traveller universe, could this memberworld government ( or one of them, in a balkanized situation ) restrict its people from joining an Imperial service such as the Navy or the Scouts?

Can such a government restrict its citizens from travelling offworld?

Can it legally keep or hinder Imperial authorities from talking to its citizens, gather information, investigate crimes, and all of that?

After looking again at The Traveller Adventure, I would say that Pysadi fits most of your comments, except it does not appear to have any landed Imperium nobles. It is on the fringes of the Spinward Marches, but clearly is in the Imperium, based on the plot of the adventure.

As for a Balkanized world, I would argue that all of your comments could apply, especially for Low-Tech Balkanized worlds.

 

[flykiller]

imtu the imperium "rules the space between the stars", i.e. it rules the starports. so ...

In this Traveller universe, could this memberworld government ( or one of them, in a balkanized situation ) restrict its people from joining an Imperial service such as the Navy or the Scouts?

sure, if the membership treaty allows it.

Can such a government restrict its citizens from travelling offworld?

sure, if the membership treaty allows it.

Can it legally keep or hinder Imperial authorities from talking to its citizens, gather information, investigate crimes, and all of that?

if an imperial interest is involved, the membership treaty will specifically mandate cooperation in pursuit of that imperial interest.

 

[mike wightman]

Let's say a world is a member of the Imperium - it pays taxes, is the residence of a few landed nobles, has an SPA-run starport, Imperial Credits are legal currency there, and the government respects Imperial High Law.

In this Traveller universe, could this memberworld government ( or one of them, in a balkanized situation ) restrict its people from joining an Imperial service such as the Navy or the Scouts?

Yes it could, the world government can impose any laws it likes on its citizens - the Imperium does not interfere with a world government's laws once the treaty is signed. Note, you will have to determine if signing the treaty of membership allows for free movement of people or if it is left as a world government law to make.

Can such a government restrict its citizens from travelling offworld?

Again, yes it can.

Can it legally keep or hinder Imperial authorities from talking to its citizens, gather information, investigate crimes, and all of that?

Once again. yes it could. Offworlders could be confined.

If a world citzen manages to make it to the estate of an Imperial noble or can get into the starport then they may sign up to Imperial service.

 

[Spenser TR]

In my own Traveller universe it makes sense that the Imperium has a bit more reach. I read the general statements that the Imperium rules the space between and I understand all that; but my take on how they handle relations with the world is skewed a bit.

I'd say that along with having to accept a starport, along with giving up control to everything in the system 10 diameters out from the main world, along with having to accept the Imperial credit, and all the other things on the list... it seems among other things to that along with fostering trade, the Imperium also has a vested interest in not letting member worlds obstruct the business of the Imperium.

Part of this biz is to manage its own services and bureaucracy. Get new recruits, train the and so on. Worlds being able to say "no, thanks" to their people opting for Imperial service seems like it would threaten the well-being of the Imperium just like saying "no thanks" to open trade, not developing alliances, accepting the credit, and so on.

As to allowing the Imperium access, or maybe just not hindering them, when there's some kind of serious interest there - investigating a potential violation of Imperial High Law, threats on the well being of a member of the nobility or other official representative... I can't see the same imperium that allows for unilateral interdiction giving a world a pass because the world decided not to cooperate, and that's just part of that world's self-government.

As a model here, I take some inspiration from the EU model, some from how the BIA/DHS in the US administers and works with the various native American governing councils. When it's convenient for the imperium to say "that's your problem, world" I can see some easy distance... but if the Imperium has a vested interest somehow, IMTU they're going to pursue that. Maybe with soft gloves at first, depending on the local situation, but it's not really something in the end that the world can just opt out of.

The idea of world citizens not being allowed to leave is an interesting one. It could well be canonical that worlds can absolutely prohibit off-planet travel, but I'd imagine that gives rise to all sorts of situations along the lines of what we see ( for example ) in our world with North Korea and South Korea; plenty of support on this side of the fenceline for defectors.

The idea that a world can exclude and control most visits from offworlders if it wants makes sense to me. "Most" being the operative word here. The world would have to accept -some- offworlders. Landed nobles and staff, trade delegates, visiting dignitaries, embassy personnel, IMoJ reps, and so on. For me it doesn't make sense that a member world would be allowed to unilaterally prohibit all off-worlders; the Imperium already has mechanics in place to restrict off-world access to a member world; interdiction and Red Zone assignment and enforcement.

I could say that this all might be accounted for in individual treaties, and that the general idea is that the Imperium butts out, except when it doesn't, and that the world has the right to restrict what it wants, except when the Imperium decides it has a vested interest in some other outcome. Maybe there's talk, negotiations, wheels moving within wheels, diplomacy, covert action, and so on.

I've been thinking a lot lately about Imperial IDs; reading what's been written, doing some extrapolation, and so on. Of course this puts me very early out into the weeds of "well, how would that go?" Good conversation.

 

[Carlobrand]

...could this memberworld government ( or one of them, in a balkanized situation ) restrict its people from joining an Imperial service such as the Navy or the Scouts? ...

Yes. Might be wise to let some of the children of the elite join, so they can make the political connections that would benefit the world's government, but I can see them restricting it so they don't have to deal with local troublemakers going off-world to learn new skills and make new friends to make trouble with.

...Can such a government restrict its citizens from travelling offworld? ...

Yes. Of course, if someone actually manages to make it to Imperial territory, they're beyond the local jurisdiction. They might get returned, they might not - rather depends on the mood of the Imperial authorities and what kind of relationship they have with the local government.

...Can it legally keep or hinder Imperial authorities from talking to its citizens, gather information, investigate crimes, and all of that?

Mostly yes. I'd say if it impinged on Imperial security, the Imperials would reserve the right to pretty much do whatever they felt was needed to maintain Imperial security. If they're trying to track down the guys who stole a nuke and detonated it at the starport, the local government had better cooperate or it's going to be moved out of the way. But those kinds of situations are likely to be pretty rare.

Most things dirtside are beyond Imperial jurisdiction. If it's something that affects the Imperium, like trying to track down pirates or some such, in most cases the Imperials would content themselves to work through the local government. There's a fine balance there. If it's serious enough to get the Imperials coming to the local government, then the local government has a vested interest in collecting the intel themselves so they can maintain that barrier between their subjects and the Imperials. And if the Imperials decide the local government is actually sheltering pirates ... well, there are ways of dealing with that.

 

[Jason M Durkish]

Let's say a world is a member of the Imperium - it pays taxes, is the residence of a few landed nobles, has an SPA-run starport, Imperial Credits are legal currency there, and the government respects Imperial High Law.

In this Traveller universe, could this memberworld government ( or one of them, in a balkanized situation ) restrict its people from joining an Imperial service such as the Navy or the Scouts?

Can such a government restrict its citizens from travelling offworld?

Can it legally keep or hinder Imperial authorities from talking to its citizens, gather information, investigate crimes, and all of that?

In my universe
The answer is NO

 

[MThompson016]

I would say it depends on the Needs of the Imperium.

If a world wants to have minimal contact with the rest of the Imperium, I would think it would generally isolate the Star Port in some fashion. A planet, even with a few billion people, is a big place. A large island could be set up as the Imperial Starport Reserve, with limited communications to the rest of the planet.

As for people, the local government may allow some to go off world as either part of understanding the offworld barbarians, or as a safety valve for dissidents.

So, can a planetary government practically restrict citizens from going offworld? To an extent. Having a culture that makes it unlikely helps.

Can they legally keep or hinder Imperial authorities from talking to its citizens, gather information etc? Not really. That's a quick way for the Duke to call in an Imperial Intervention. The Emperors laws must be enforced.

 

[boomslang]

In this Traveller universe, could this memberworld government ( or one of them, in a balkanized situation ) restrict its people from joining an Imperial service such as the Navy or the Scouts?

I cannot imagine any circumstances under which the 3I would permit this prohibition. Local planetary government is autonomous so far as it goes, but preventing a citizen from volunteering to serve the Iridium Throne begins to look like high treason.

Can such a government restrict its citizens from travelling offworld?

For any reason other than Imperial Service, yes. Note that the Imperial Count (and any nobility such as Imperial Barons, Knights, et cetera among the native populace) should be able to come and go freely.

Can it legally keep or hinder Imperial authorities from talking to its citizens, gather information, investigate crimes, and all of that?

I would not advise it. The 3I is content to let local matters be the purview of local government, but always reserves the right to intervene as Imperial Interests (pretty much exclusively Security and Trade and typically not Sophont Rights, by the way) may -- in the sole determination of the Imperium -- require. Opposition to this authority is a form of insurrection, and will be dealt with as harshly as one might expect.

 

[kilemall]

I would venture to say that the Imperium, being about both trade/commerce and defense, planets cannot shirk either.

However, planets look to maintain the 'purity' of their citizens to devotion to whatever their governmental/blood/religious duty is deemed to be.

Being an empire of men not laws, there would no doubt be all manner of arrangements customs and understandings keeping worlds from complete isolation or lack of collective defense yet satisfy local government.

Also, planets would need nobility involved in subsector/sector affairs, and so they need to have some people in the services and Imperium to 'represent', even if it's just SOC A+.

So, could be Imperial service is not mentioned or pushed, or generally known except in time of war when local limits are overridden, and high SOC people prepared to deal with the 'outside world' sometimes serve. But it's not illegal to sign up and serve.

Could be tough to get into the starport, whether there can be recruiting stations on the planetary side of extrality might be one of those conditional 'depends' situations.

Another possibility is that you can sign up, but you can never get back through the starport to home again- it's illegal or made ridiculously difficult to get back in once the outside world has 'poisoned' the character.

The Imperium gets it's pound of flesh and best years of their lives, the planetary government serves it's obligations yet keeps it's people pure, and the only loser is the servicephont that has to wander the star lanes without a home.

 

[aramis]

Canonically one of the first things Archduke Dulinor does in Illellish (Domain of) is institute a draft... of unemployed 18 YO's.
IIRC, Strephon institutes it Imperium-wide not long after.

When there is a draft, no world is going to be able to say "No" without facing the wrath of the IN... Governor says, "No"... Recruit transport ship proceeds to fire its meson bay, Governor's mansion ceases to exist... New/Acting Governor is informed he's going to make way for IN, IM, IISS recruiting. (The IA, if it exists as more than just headquarters - see COACC - would likely be pulled from the local army first, not directly recruited - saves a lot on the IA budget... and allows spot-checking for compliance with IA training requirements...)

 

[Adam Dray]

Saying no is treason. However, the families of men and women who do sign up might be treated badly by their neighbors, so there'd be strong social pressure not to do it.

 

[Spenser TR]

Interesting thoughts, about the draft. I know we're just supposing and going off what our impressions are, along with some tidbits that are in canon. The idea of a draft is particularly interesting; Amaris I know you were referring to widespread edicts but I'm also now considering cases where the Imperium ( or its rep ) decides at a local level to institute a draft as retribution, pressure release, or social chess move in response to a particularly oppressive world government.

And the idea that a world could respond to a citizen's decision to enlist in service ( military or otherwise ) by banning that citizen from returning is at once brutal and totally believable in certain cases.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Read your charter...

Let's say a world is a member of the Imperium - it pays taxes, is the residence of a few landed nobles, has an SPA-run starport, Imperial Credits are legal currency there, and the government respects Imperial High Law.

Let's...

In this Traveller universe, could this memberworld government ( or one of them, in a balkanized situation ) restrict its people from joining an Imperial service such as the Navy or the Scouts?

No, though the Imperium can refuse to take the sophont into its service. Membership is designed to fill the ranks of the Imperial Services, it does that by ensuring that Member Citizens may freely enlist in the Imperial services at their own pleasure or as levies if in the specific Charter of Membership.

Can such a government restrict its citizens from travelling offworld?

Possibly. They can not restrict for political or religious, or creed)s) held, racial differences, those type of reasons but they may restrict for some criminal acts, such as murder, kidnapping, treason (maybe), basically felony or capital crimes. Which they will have to prove to the Imperial authorities.

Can it legally keep or hinder Imperial authorities from talking to its citizens, gather information, investigate crimes, and all of that?

No. The Imperial authorities supersede those of the Member state in cases of Imperial matters or if the Imperium has been called in to assist matters by one part of the Member state government.

Or that is how I run it. Now I need to note this in the notebook.

 

[Spenser TR]

... Now I need to note this in the notebook.

Happy to help turn the wheels of thought.

 

[coliver988]

and copied into my notebook (literally - I use OneNote so a sweet copy/paste along with the thread URL).

I appreciate the thoughts in this thread as they help me clarify how the Imperium works.

 

[Kilgs]

I think in terms of Imperial Law there are situations where a polity/world has to comply. But isolating their population? Sure, there are planets out there where folks may be prohibited from using Bic lighters because they are too advanced. Knowledge of and interaction with an interstellar community and... gasp... aliens could bring the whole thing crashing down.

As for enlistment prohibitions... maybe they just have higher taxes sort of like scutage?

 

[Ulsyus]

How would all of this vary between a world cut off during the Long Night before being rediscovered and uplifted (for want of a better term) in the Third Imperium, versus a world settled by Imperial citizens funded by wealthy Nobles who in effect are the executive of whatever form of government has been established?

 

[Kilgs]

How would all of this vary between a world cut off during the Long Night before being rediscovered and uplifted (for want of a better term) in the Third Imperium, versus a world settled by Imperial citizens funded by wealthy Nobles who in effect are the executive of whatever form of government has been established?

On that same vein, corporate government, I'm the CEO of a megacorporation which colonizes a planet, spends bajillions in infrastructure, offers huge incentives for employees to travel and live there all so I can harvest/refine/manufacture whatsit rocks... now I'm going to let them leave? Hells no.

I'm just going to negotiate with the Imperium a high tax rate or a large one-time payment, maybe some freebies or rights ceded to the Imperium like that asteroid field over there, for exemption from the draft.

Now, can I stop second-generation folks from joining up? Depends on how big my payment was... and whether the Imperium is at war.
===
In my opinion, the real issue is the question of a draft and its place in history. Rebellion and earlier FFW historical "documents" were written in the 70's-90's where a draft was a very real thing. Nowadays, it may exist, but no modern (US) commander ever wants to implement a draft again. And they certainly don't want to command a draft military or take them into action!

In the future, at the Imperium level, you likely want motivated, volunteer military and would not be interested in a draft system or unwilling recruits. Granted, planetary armies and surface conflicts may work differently (after all, some still have quadruped cavalry) but I highly doubt the Imperium would implement a draft.

Canon notwithstanding, an Imperium or Shattered Imperium faction-wide draft doesn't seem very plausible. On a sheer implementation scale, it would be bigger than a census bureau and need more muscle.

You could make an argument that, when called on, a sector must put forth "X units of heavy infantry, X divisions of grav cavalry etc." That's a muster and would be at the sector duke's implementation. Chances are they would fire up the recruitment drive and stations and, if that failed, they would start hiring mercenaries or negotiating a scutage to the Imperium.

 

[Carlobrand]

Canonically one of the first things Archduke Dulinor does in Illellish (Domain of) is institute a draft... of unemployed 18 YO's.
IIRC, Strephon institutes it Imperium-wide not long after.

When there is a draft, no world is going to be able to say "No" without facing the wrath of the IN... Governor says, "No"... Recruit transport ship proceeds to fire its meson bay, Governor's mansion ceases to exist... New/Acting Governor is informed he's going to make way for IN, IM, IISS recruiting. (The IA, if it exists as more than just headquarters - see COACC - would likely be pulled from the local army first, not directly recruited - saves a lot on the IA budget... and allows spot-checking for compliance with IA training requirements...)

Ooooh, the draft! Special circumstances, an Imperium-wide civil war! That would have played hell with local cultures - if the Imperium hadn't gone and collapsed under that Virus thing.

On that same vein, corporate government, I'm the CEO of a megacorporation which colonizes a planet, spends bajillions in infrastructure, offers huge incentives for employees to travel and live there all so I can harvest/refine/manufacture whatsit rocks... now I'm going to let them leave? Hells no.

I'm just going to negotiate with the Imperium a high tax rate or a large one-time payment, maybe some freebies or rights ceded to the Imperium like that asteroid field over there, for exemption from the draft. ...

Maybe. Maybe not. That Imperium-wide civil war was a hella bloody thing. Unique, even. it's likely to depend on whether they need bodies more or cash more. And, depending on where and when you are, you might be too busy trying to get whatever assets you can to a more secure system before they come and smash your infrastructure to keep it out of enemy hands. The plight of your workers might well be the last thing on your mind.