567-908

[robject]

I'm considering developing the material I've created for 567-908 into a more thorough resource. I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts about this? Also, though I'm not obligated to GURPS, I'm interested in a high-level summary of how their sourcebook treated the world (Denuli, they called it).

 

[robject]

Noone? H'm, I didn't realize that Warnock's Dilemma applied here. Ah well.

 

[far-trader]

Well, you'll feel better now then

Maybe? Does it count as dewarnocked if the response is not really on topic?

For GURPS info you might cross post this to the GURPS forum (or even SJG forums). Sorry I've got nothing on topic to add at the moment, and no GURPS material to share insight from

 

[robject]

Thanks for the tips... I got hold of David Smart and asked him to browse his copy. They have a player's map of the world, and a Jump-6 map, and that's it. So far, then, there's little mapping done of the world.

 

[robject]

Some assumptions regarding the shrieker population. I took a guesstimated view of what a stable population would be based on their population growth, and decided that the maximum hunter-gatherer population supported in a plains hex is around 12,000.

TL1 agriculture doubles that, and TL2 agriculture quadruples it.

Swampland and hill-country halves that, and mountain and desert-country is one tenth that.

So one can tentatively calculate the population of the planet, with the Great Retreat as TL2 (perhaps), and the rest of the world at TL0.

These are approximate counts (I'm probably off by 1 or 2 on each, except for desert, where I could be off by 50 due to laziness):

Untamed wilderness:
Desert: 200
Swamp:10
Prairie: 58
Hills: 21
Mountain: 42
estimated maximum population: 1,164,000.

The Great Retreat:
Prairie: 1
Hills: 3
estimated maximum population: 120,000.

 

[atpollard]

Being unfamiliar with the world, what size is a plains hex?
I was trying to get a feel for population density.

 

[robject]

Being unfamiliar with the world, what size is a plains hex?
I was trying to get a feel for population density.

Great, thanks for asking. Density seems to be very low -- a hex is 700km wide. I might expect you to suggest a higher density, which would be fine with me, or maybe even a lower density (I dunno!).

From what I can tell, the rougher places in medieval Europe were at least 30 people per square mile... which very very roughly calculates to maybe 5 million people per hex on 567-908... so the least-populated lands in Europe are 100 times denser than the most fertile lands on 567-908.

Sounds very wrong, doesn't it? Maybe I should rethink.

One guiding principle is that their population growth is slower than ours. However, that shouldn't affect their overall population density, should it? Hmmmm.

Guidance appreciated.


Addendum Even pre-Columbian California estimates run from 100,000 (low numbers being politically charged) to 1,000,000 and up (upper numbers also being politically charged). And California is roughly the same area as one hex on 567-908. Granted, California seems to be quite bountiful.

So is California and hunter-gatherer humanity 20 times more fecund on the average than TL2 agricultural Shriekers on the best hex in 567-908? Maybe. If so, then that planet must be a terrible place to live.

 

[Plankowner]

Low population growth could work either way.

Low growth might make them cluster together and spread out slower, so you would have some hexes with little or no shieker population at all, while several might be much higher than expected.

Alternately, the low growth might mean that they are spread out thinner but more evenly than humans would.

Most Terrestrial Hunter/Gatherers tend to group into packs or families while strict hunters can be solitary. The family/social grouping of the Shriekers could affect population density as much as any other factor.

By TL2 on Earth, the human population was in the hundreds of millions if that is any help. Even at TL1, there were over a hundred million people in the world. Native populations are going to be in that range or within 1 order of magnitude up or down, depending on culture, fertility (crops and themselves), resources etc.

Maybe you need to do this backwards. Decide how many Shriekers you want (tens to hundreds of millions) and figure out a population density to make that work.

 

[robject]

Thanks Plank, that's helpful. I generally assumed the world population is in either the hundreds of thousands or in the millions.

The way Adventure 10 speaks of it, it looks like civilization is clumped together, but the nomad groups are thinly spread out. Perhaps plains agriculture has more benefit than I allowed.


For those who don't know, here's how Adventure 10 sets it up: half of the world is a horrid desert wasteland. The remaining half is divided up into a single ocean, a lot of mountains, and a few patches of plains. Not a nice place to begin with. Half of the mountainous land doesn't even have enough air to breathe.

Nomad barbarian tribes hunt and gather on the plains, which are generally scattered around the mountain territory (I suppose it receives runoff from rain) and between the mountains and the ocean.

There is one center of civilization, in the foothills and valley of a ring of high mountain ranges (higher than 4000m). They have one hex of plains, three of hills (less than 4000m).

On reflection, I suspect much of the hill/mountain country may be like the Andes.

 

[robject]

Another population estimate

Perhaps 5 million in Columbia... which equates to about 2 million per hex in an agricultural context on 567-908... or, using numbers for the Inca, 5 million per hex...

 

[robject]

Population Reform #1

Plains hex: 125,000. (I.E. about ten times my original estimate)

TL1: Double that.
TL2: Quadruple that.

Swamp/low mountains hex: halve that.
Desert/high mountains hex: one tenth of that.

Wilderness estimate: 12 millions.
Civilization estimate: 1.2 million.

Safely sets the population digit as a 7.


Goal Frankly I don't care for them to be particularly populous. A 7 is definitely the farthest I want to go. I now think that anything less than a 7 is too dangerously low for an indigenous group.

 

[far-trader]

I agree with the pop level reasoning. Looking good. On a side note is this related to the Barony papers and/or T5 is some intimate way? Or is it some other project? And can you elaborate? Just curious though so no worry

 

[robject]

I agree with the pop level reasoning. Looking good. On a side note is this related to the Barony papers and/or T5 is some intimate way? Or is it some other project? And can you elaborate? Just curious though so no worry

LOL This has been a favorite subject of mine almost as long as I've played Traveller. (Is 567-908 able to be an Imperial feif?) Where helpful, I've applied T5 to it (adapting chargen into a full-blown system) but backgrounds don't seem to apply much to rules. For some reason, a marginal world with a scattered and backwards sophont population attracts my attention. Maybe it's the whole idea of a precarious struggle for survival in the wilderness on the edge of oblivion.

I don't know where to put my barony. I'm totally lost for ideas. Regina? Pretoria? Tureded? Arkadia? Shush (0221 Corridor)?

 

[far-trader]

I don't know where to put my barony. I'm totally lost for ideas. Regina? Pretoria? Tureded? Arkadia? Shush (0221 Corridor)?

I haven't decided yet either, but a friend I mentioned it to said I should take Regina, being that I live so close Regina (Saskatchewan) Like geography should count for privilege But I want someplace that hasn't been done to death or nearly so, some pristine bit of wilderness, for reasons similar to yours and more. I'm looking at a couple in The Marches, near 567-908 (I think I even looked AT it), we might even be neighbours, close enough for a trip on the ol Type-Y now and then

But back to your topic, I'm reading with interest

 

[robject]

I haven't decided yet either, but a friend I mentioned it to said I should take Regina, being that I live so close Regina (Saskatchewan) Like geography should count for privilege But I want someplace that hasn't been done to death or nearly so, some pristine bit of wilderness, for reasons similar to yours and more. I'm looking at a couple in The Marches, near 567-908 (I think I even looked AT it), we might even be neighbours, close enough for a trip on the ol Type-Y now and then

But back to your topic, I'm reading with interest

Well, Faldor's been sketched up pretty good by the Keith Brothers; even so, I'm sure you could carve out a cute niche there. But if you got a somewhat more techically advanced world, maybe we could get the Scouts onto 567-908... it seems that the Imperium doesn't mind interfering with locals; I wonder if they can do it gently?

Of course, there's always Flexos... or Squallia...

So there are at least three things going for 567-908 (not exclusive to the world, but available):

The IISS I figure the Scouts might want to set up some sort of barebones operation on 567-908. There must be some of those Xenosophontologists in the IISS, foaming at the mouth to study a "new" people.

World Conquest, Old School A massive wargame scenario is practically handed to us on a platter, ripe for development. A tiny bastion of civilization, and a sea of barbaric nomadic tribes. It's Makassar all over again. All you need is a cadre mission for player characters, and iterate "training sessions" with the Mercenary mass combat rules...

Indiana-Jones Archaeology Not one but two completely destroyed civilizations, with exquisite stonework. Lots of boring road fragments, which should lead to excitingly dangerous ruins. Okay, the 100,000-year-old ones might not be exciting. I dunno. Maybe they can be. But the 6,000-year-old ones are "practically new". There's got to be political intrigue coupled with dungeon crawls there.

Adventure Hooks There are a scad of other hooks that at least bear mentioning, with the amount of detail that you'd find in a JTAS article. A security mission protecting the world from Pirates. An itemized list of hunting misadventures for a variety of nasty flora and fauna on the world. Pursuing Denuli Crystal thieves across half the subsector. A standoff with Sword Worlders, or a Shivva. Having to leave behind a downed air/raft, and trudge across plains brimming with annoyed creatures and hostile nomads. Could even throw in a pre-Maghiz Darrian outpost (yes, they were there, but I don't think they set up shop). Oh yeah, fun times.

 

[robject]

Population Reform #2

From Wikipedia: "cultivated land is capable of sustaining population densities 60–100 times greater than land left uncultivated."

Should I rework the numbers yet again?


Conquest of 567-908 - BACKGROUND

16% of civilized Shriekers are warriors. So out of approximately 1 million, that's a fighting force of 160,000.

How about nomadic tribes? I assume most of them are fighters. There may be a 'seeker' class, and there will be a 'priest' class, but each of those would only be, say, 3% of the population. There would not be a 'serf' class. Probably half of the group are 'fighters', i.e. hunters.

So, you've got various nomadic groups.

Small bands of up to 30 or so, living entirely off of the land, and occasionally grouping into larger units for special occasions. The weakest groups, probably living in marginal areas.

Larger pastoral nomad groups, who lead their herds along with them. These guys are better fed and have larger numbers than the marginal nomads.

Finally you've got rider groups - pastoral nomads which have domesticated a riding beast. You can end up with Hordes sweeping down from the Steppes to conquer everything in their path.


Conquest - SETUP

Pick one of these scenarios:

(1) Locally managed - the Great Retreat has formed a policy of gradually subduing the nomadic tribes.
(2) Cadre mission - some hapless Imperials have been employed by person or persons unknown to train the civilized Shriekers of the Great Retreat in the art of military strategy and tactics, with a view toward subduing the nomadic tribes.

Next, group the civilized fighting force into military structures according to Book 4 (Mercenary), alloting each force a reasonable level of competency and morale.

Then, group the barbarian forces into less capable but more numerous structures.

Assign a time-point cost for actions. Positioning troops, attacking, shoring up defenses, training, gathering food, etc.


Conquest - ACTION

Take turns with each group trying to gain territory over the others. To own a hex, you have to defeat all defending forces in that hex. NOTE - hexes are big, so many groups can be in the same hex without being in contact. Combat is not automatic; you have to declare it.

A group can be in a hex it does not own; such a group is not a "defending" group (it's 'underground' I suppose) and has severe action penalties within that hex. The group has a bonus against being found.

Allow temporary alliances of any kind (i.e. deal-making).

It would help to have one player for the civilized group, and one for each of the major barbarian polities.

Duke it out. Use the mass combat rules found in Book 4. I reckon losses of 40% causes surrender by a force; barbarians join forces with the conquering group, but civilized Shriekers probably get massacred. Thoughts?

How many years does it take to conquer the barbarians? Or, does one tribe gain the upper hand and sack the last bastion of civilization?

 

[robject]

The IISS

Background

Now that you've got a newly discovered people, there are survey concerns. The IISS will form an agenda for the Shrieker world, and allocate assets to protect that agenda.

Possible Scenario 1 - Survey

Someone is going to have to survey that world much more closely. Geologic reports, biome analysis, classification of flora and fauna, weather patterns and trend analysis, you-name-it, if it's annoying and possibly dangerous, then someone's gotta do it.

Possible Scenario 2 - Sociology

History, sociological studies, literary analysis and mythic cycles, philosophic plumbing, comparative religion, study of their educational process, rituals, building methods, technological aptitudes, physical abilities, inter-cultural relations with other Shriekers, et cetera. Lots of opportunity to "get your feet muddy" by participating as a human in Shrieker culture -- lots of opportunity for fun and danger here.

Possible Scenario 3 - Assistance

Transmitting epigraphic knowledge of the previous two civilizations to the current civilization (so they can read their own history), designing intercommunication aids for other Scouts, integrating some Imperial know-how into their educational system (laying the foundation for technical uplift). Here's where players can get meddlesome, teaching the Shriekers how to advance technologically. Lifting them to TL3 could be a major undertaking -- especially when you consider the social upheaval that may result. If uplift is attempted by players, then they should also get caught in the middle.

At this point, the Shriekers would need an embassy.

Possible Scenario 4 - Scout Base

There are scout bases everywhere, yet setting up a brand new one is uncharted waters. It's a political and technological effort, involving the Shrieker embassy (if there is one).

What are the concessions granted to the Shriekers? To the Sword Worlds? Does Bowman's Belt have a stake? How about other local polities?

How small will the base be? How many people manning it? How will it connect to the interstellar transportation network?

Alternate solutions - perhaps 567-908 falls under the auspices of a nearby scout base. As such, there may be a tiny outpost and nothing more (this makes more sense than a fully-fledged base, unless there are other matters in the referee's campaign that makes the world a hotspot of sorts). The same political concerns may crop up, though.

 

[robject]

Old-School Archaeology

While the Scout Sociologists are deciphering the writing systems of the two perished civilizations, more hands-on people will be doing some illegal handiwork.

Scenario 1 - Treasure Hunting

This is a modified dungeon crawl, containing decayed maps, deadly native creatures, ancient traps, unstable ruins, and (of course) extremely rare works of art. Both the IISS and the Shriekers will be looking to punish treasure hunters. Collecting denuli crystals themselves represents a very dangerous hobby -- especially if the IISS teaches Shriekers how to use longarms.

A modified version of this scenario has the players as legitimate archaeologists, racing to preserve the Shriekers' legacy before smugglers pillage everything. In this case, their opponents may be local barbarian Shrieker tribes and smugglers themselves.

Another modified version of this scenario puts the players in the role of enforcers, who actively seek out and capture smugglers and turn them over to the (local!) authorities for justice.

Scenario 2 - Smuggling

The complement to hunting is the getaway and the fence. Once you've got the goods, you have to get back into orbit; hope other smugglers haven't decided to simply board and take your hard-won booty; enter jumpspace; rendezvous with your fence; and hope he's not sold you out. Then you can collect your reward.

A modified version of this scenario is either the bounty-hunter setting or the enforcement role mentioned before, where the players are hired to capture smuggler ships.

Another modified version is where a member of the IISS himself is involved in the smuggling actions, and the players suffer many mishaps before realizing that the problem starts with the Scout base.

 

[robject]

Miscellaneous Adventure Hooks

Security for Hire A player's ship is hired out, last-minute to protect 567-908 from a band of roving pirates.

Safari Ship 2 The players are hired by an agency to help out on a number of hunt-and-capture events (for nobility inclined to such things) on 567-908, involving the famous Crested Trapper; large, heavy, temperamental land beasts; giant carnivorous plants; swarming fliers; fanged, armored sea-beasts; and other similar surprises. Shares a lot of elements with the Survey mission.

Budget Patrol A standoff with Sword Worlders, or (for the adventurous) a Shivva cruiser, who are challenging some of the minor territory rights of the Imperium.

Across the Dry Face Having to leave behind a downed air/raft, and trudge across desert, plains, and mountains, brimming with annoyed creatures and hostile nomads, to get to civilization (or alternately to the "starport").

Darrian Gold The discovery of what looks to be a small outpost from the pre-Maghiz Darrian period sparks a rush to claim it from four or five governments (Sword Worlds, Imperium, Zhodani, Darrian, Trexalon, Shrieker -- whoever comes out of the woodwork).

Ambassador The group has been hired to transport a Shrieker ambassador from his homeworld through dangerous space to an Imperial (or Darrian, or Sword Worlds, etc) embassy.

 

[robject]

Population Reform #2

Prairie hex: 100,000 people.

Hills or Swamp: half that.
Desert or Mountain: one-tenth that.
TL1: four times that.
TL2: ten times that.


World Population Estimate

Untamed wilderness:
Desert: 200
Swamp:10
Prairie: 58
Hills: 21
Mountain: 42
Total "prairie hex" equivalent: 87.7
estimated population: 8.77 million.
estimated fighters: 4.4 million.

The Great Retreat:
Prairie: 1
Hills: 3
estimated population: 2.5 million.
estimated fighters: 400,000*
* This assumes 16% of the population really are fighters, which assumes that chargen reflects true distribution, rather than PC/NPC opportunity. Doesn't that number seem a little high?

Total population: 11 million plus change.

Still population 7, but agriculture makes a big difference now.


So, potential total TL2 population (assuming 100% world utilization): 90 million.