[1e] Turret Weapons - Thoughts and House Rules

[TheDark]

The more I play around with ship design in MgT1e and the more I read from the early GDW editions, the more quibbles I have with some of the design choices. Keeping in mind that I'm using the High Guard errata and the systems from Trillion Credit Squadron, my thoughts and a few house rules, working my way through the weapons by TL:

TL-6

Missile Tube
Damage per missile, Range special, 0.75 MCr
The only TL-6 weapons are missiles. These are fine. At high TL they become somewhat ineffective, since Smart missiles are limited to Effect 4 and other missiles to Effect 6 by the space combat rules on pages 147-149 of the Core Rulebook. With only 1d6 damage, that limits the Armor they can inflict damage against. They're a potential threat to most ACS, but not full-up warships. Nuclear missiles are more powerful, but (1) banned in the TI and (2) pretty much anything you'd want to use a nuke against will have nuclear dampers.

Missile Pack
Damage per missile, Range special, Cost double missile cost
A single-shot 12-pack of missiles. Probably mostly a corsair/raider thing so that they can carry fewer gunners, launching a salvo early and then having the gunner take over another turret. The same caveats apply as with the Missile Tube.

TL-7

Pulse Laser
Damage 2d6, Range Short, Cost 0.5 MCr, -2 DM to Hit
The first weapon that doesn’t require ammunition. That -2 DM is big, since it essentially means you need 10+ to hit instead of 8+, dropping the odds (without any modifiers) from 5/12 to 2/12. It also reduces Effect, so every other weapon is more likely to hit, and if the Pulse Laser hits, so would another weapon with +2 to damage.

Sandcaster
Damage special, range special, Cost 0.25 MCr
A defensive weapon that can reduce an incoming beam attack by 1d6 if the gunner hits. Potentially useful for small craft, but against bay weapons that’s not much reduction.

TL-8

Particle Beam
Damage 3d6, Range Long, Cost 4 MCr, 1 per triple turret
This is overpowered and under-TL, particularly given its stats in CT (where it’s TL-15 and a single particle turret is equivalent to a double beam laser or triple pulse laser). I’d drop the damage to 2d6 and raise the TL to 14 or 15. This also keeps the P-Beam turret weapon from being available before the triple turret that’s required to mount it.

TL-9

Beam Laser
Damage 1d6, Range Medium, Cost 1 MCr
It has less punch than the Pulse Laser, but more range and accuracy, which can make it more effective than its stats suggest. I wouldn’t change anything here other than maybe dropping it to TL-8 so that it comes 1 TL after the Pulse Laser instead of 2 TLs. In RAW, the only thing it really has going for it compared to a P-Beam is cost.

TL-11

Plasma Gun
Damage 2d6+4, Range Medium, Cost 2.5 MCr, 1 per double turret or 2 per triple turret
This is a little more powerful than I’d expect and expensive compared to the CT version. Drop it to 2d6 and TL-10, and price it at 1.5 MCr. This also opens up room for the Fusion Gun that CT has but MgT doesn’t.

Changes/House Rules

TL-12

Fusion Gun
Damage 3d6, Range Medium, Cost 2.0 MCr, 1 per double turret or 2 per triple turret
The fusion gun is high-powered in CT, with a single fusion barrel being as effective in combat as 4 particle turrets or 6 beam lasers. Granting it the 3d6 that the P-Beam originally had makes it the heavy hitter of the turret weapons, but without the range the P-Beam has (unless it’s modified at a higher TL).

Just for the sake of clarity, IMMgTU I’ve adopted the rules that additional barrels for beam weapons add flat damage and that the flat damage is +1 per die of damage, so a triple pulse laser will be 2d6+4 and a double fusion gun would be 3d6+3. I also add Effect to damage because otherwise the "heavily armed" Gazelle can't damage itself without resorting to nukes.

Revised TL table
TL-6 – Missile Tube, Missile Pack
TL-7 – Pulse Laser, Sandcaster
TL-8 – Beam Laser
TL-10 – Plasma Gun (2d6/1.5 MCr)
TL-12 – Fusion Gun
TL-14 – Particle Beam (2d6)

This table adds weapons rapidly at low TLs, then slows down as TLs increase. It also helps keep lower-tech weapons a bit competitive, since by the time Plasma Guns are available, Pulse Lasers can be triple modified and Beam Lasers can be double modified. The prototype rules from High Guard can fill in the "empty" TL slots

 

[Rupert]

If you want a more CT feel, missiles need a considerable damage boost, and sand casters need a boost as well

 

[Condottiere]

Sandcasters can possibly cause one point of hull damage, if you use anti personnel.

One dice of damage if you switch to pebbles.

Also, sandblasting for rust and paint removal.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The most-Traveller weapon of them all.

They're Shotguns in Space...combat!

Ok, maybe meson guns are more Traveller. Maybe.

 

[TheDark]

If you want a more CT feel, missiles need a considerable damage boost, and sand casters need a boost as well

This isn't exactly meant to bring back a CT feel, but more looking at them for background while trying to figure out why the MgT weapon progression feels so wonky. Really, the primary goal was making the Particle Beam Turret less dominant and doing a few tweaks here and there to adjust things based on (somewhat) nerfing the P-Beam.

As far as the wonkiness goes, it looks like a decision was made to introduce every size of weapon at the same time. That does simplify checking designs for TL compatibility and barely affects most weapons, but it heavily changed Particle Beams, which in CT had Spinals and Large Bays at TL-8, Small Bays at TL-10, Barbettes at TL-14, and Turrets at TL-15. They also weren't all that powerful on the USP tables (a TL-8 100-ton Particle Bay was equal in damage to 5 Triple Beam Laser Turrets, while a TL-15 Particle Accelerator Turret did the same damage as a single Beam Laser due to the BLaser's +1 USP at TL-13+) because their big offensive advantage was that no defenses stopped them. I didn't weaken them that much because a TL-14 1d6 weapon would struggle against TL-equivalent armor in MgT, but dropping them by 1d6 gave room to bring back the Fusion Gun, which is more powerful but shorter-ranged and vulnerable to sand.

For missiles, I feel like torpedoes end up more or less filling the role of CT missiles, and I'm a little wary of scaling missile damage up significantly when the defenses against missiles are significantly reduced, with sand not affecting missiles and no repulsors.

For sand, I think it might be possible to scale it up a little by using a similar rule to beam weapons against missiles, where a single sandcaster turret intercepts a first beam on 8+, and can continue intercepting beams as long as the gunner keeps hitting with a cumulative -1 DM. Multiple turrets could intercept the same beam, and they follow the same "flat score" rule as beam weapons, so a triple sandcaster turret will reduce an incoming attack by 1d6+2 - they sacrifice ammunition efficiency for crew and hardpoint efficiency. I haven't playtested that, so I don't know if it will break anything, but my instinct is it'll make sand a more viable defense with decent gunners without making beam weapons totally useless.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Random thoughts:

Changes/House Rules

TL-12

Fusion Gun
Damage 3d6, Range Medium, Cost 2.0 MCr, 1 per double turret or 2 per triple turret

Shouldn't a Fusion Gun be better than a Plasma Gun (2d6+4)?

Do you want turrets to still be useful for naval ships? The turret particle at 3d6 and Long range was the only real option.
Even with a range upgrade a Medium range weapon isn't really cutting it...


You should probably do the same for barbettes and even bays? A barbette isn't all that much more expensive than a turret, even for a civilian, when you include the gunner (stateroom etc).

You might want to switch the power plant limitation on number of turret weapons between particle and fusion?


Dual Fusion turrets would be the only real choice for turrets wanting to actually hurt the enemy. A Fusion turret at 3d3+3 with a range upgrade or a particle barbette at an adjusted 3d6 is no choice?


MgT1 naval combat with the Core system was all about Meson bays IIRC? Something like the Gazelle should probably go back to its CT HG'79 roots and shoehorn a bay in there somehow. Even with Particle (Fusion?) barbettes it would easily penetrate its own armour.


Missile Pack can be great for civilians that don't want to carry lots of gunners costing staterooms. A Fat Trader with four missile packs only needs one gunner, and 48 multi-warhead missiles are quite effective against unarmoured targets...

The fusion gun is high-powered in CT, with a single fusion barrel being as effective in combat as 4 particle turrets or 6 beam lasers. Granting it the 3d6 that the P-Beam originally had makes it the heavy hitter of the turret weapons, but without the range the P-Beam has (unless it’s modified at a higher TL).

The CT Particle used both the Surface and the Radiation damage table in CT HG. That enabled it to make horrible Crew and Computer hits that were not available on the Surface damage table. It was much more lethal against civilian (unarmoured) ships than the battery factor alone would indicate. Still useless against heavily armoured targets...

 

[TheDark]

Random thoughts:


Shouldn't a Fusion Gun be better than a Plasma Gun (2d6+4)?

The Plasma Gun is reduced to 2d6 in this system, but picks up a + crew hit that I forgot in my original post.

Do you want turrets to still be useful for naval ships? The turret particle at 3d6 and Long range was the only real option.
Even with a range upgrade a Medium range weapon isn't really cutting it...

I'm not super concerned about whether they're useful for naval ships or not, since I don't run naval campaigns (and don't want anything to do with High Guard's barrage rules in actual play because in my opinion they're complex enough to stop a session dead).

You should probably do the same for barbettes and even bays? A barbette isn't all that much more expensive than a turret, even for a civilian, when you include the gunner (stateroom etc).

I haven't looked at bays yet, but barbettes are dead simple in this system - they're available at the same TL as the equivalent turret, do +1d6 damage, and cost twice as much. I also like the idea of laser barbettes to let low-TL vessels have a little more punch at the expense of tonnage, so the barbettes table would look something like this:

Barbette	TL	Range	Damage	Cost (MCr)	Notes
Pulse Laser	7	Short	3d6	1	-2 DM to hit
Beam Laser	8	Medium	2d6	2
Torpedo	9	Special	by torpedo (1)	3
Railgun	9	Short	3d6	4	can't fire past Short
Plasma Gun	10	Medium	3d6	3	+ crew hit
Fusion Gun	12	Medium	4d6	4	+ crew hit
Particle Beam	14	Long	3d6	8	+ crew hit

I think Small Bays will be +2d6 from Barbettes and Large Bays +3d6 from Small Bays (except for torpedoes that just fling more torpedoes and railguns that add Autofire instead of damage), but I need to double-check to see if that mucks anything up.

You might want to switch the power plant limitation on number of turret weapons between particle and fusion?

I forgot about that rule. I'll have to consider what to do about it, but my first inclination is to just drop it.

Dual Fusion turrets would be the only real choice for turrets wanting to actually hurt the enemy. A Fusion turret at 3d3+3 with a range upgrade or a particle barbette at an adjusted 3d6 is no choice?

At TL-14, true. At TL-15, the barbette can also get a range upgrade to Very Long, so it comes down to punch versus range. With most of the things an ACS "should" encounter being at 8 armor or less (unless you decide to take on something like an SDB-II) and Effect adding damage, even a Beam Laser turret will occasionally get in a lucky hit, and any of the 2d6 or 3d6 damage weapons should deal damage fairly reliably (with the caveat that the Pulse Laser needs to actually hit).

MgT1 naval combat with the Core system was all about Meson bays IIRC? Something like the Gazelle should probably go back to its CT HG'79 roots and shoehorn a bay in there somehow. Even with Particle (Fusion?) barbettes it would easily penetrate its own armour.

Honestly, the real problem with the Gazelle is Core only had turrets and 50-ton bays. Barbettes, 100-ton bays, and spinals were added in High Guard. The Gazelle would be easy to redesign with barbettes replacing two of the turrets (although fitting bays isn't possible without crippling its Jump capability - its Jump Drive and fuel are 221 of its 400 tons), but it's just an example of why I allow Effect. Another example would be the Missile Systems Defender from Traders and Gunboats, which has 3 Missile Bays, 3 Missile Racks, and 3 Beam Lasers on a ship with Armor 12. Even with nukes, it can't damage itself (other than crew hits) without Effect.

Missile Pack can be great for civilians that don't want to carry lots of gunners costing staterooms. A Fat Trader with four missile packs only needs one gunner, and 48 multi-warhead missiles are quite effective against unarmoured targets...

I see it as great for raiders/pirates for a similar reason. Mount two missile packs and two "real" turrets, and you only need two gunners and don't have to split the loot among as many crew members. It also helps that first salvo swamp defenses because of the cumulative penalty for consecutive missile shoot-downs.

The CT Particle used both the Surface and the Radiation damage table in CT HG. That enabled it to make horrible Crew and Computer hits that were not available on the Surface damage table. It was much more lethal against civilian (unarmoured) ships than the battery factor alone would indicate. Still useless against heavily armoured targets...

Yeah, and radiation hits are a thing for nuclear, particle, fusion, and meson for MgT. The barrage rules in High Guard are closer to CT High Guard, letting radiation hits damage crew, computers, and sensors, but pretty much anything you'd want to barrage will only be affected by particle and meson, since radiation shielding and/or nuclear dampers will stop radiation hits from nuclear and fusion.

At the ACS/Core Rulebook scale, they just inflict an automatic Crew hit (there are no Computer hits for any weapon) in addition to rolling their normal damage, with a -DM equal to the ship's Armor for nuclear, particle, and fusion guns. When plasma guns are introduced in TCS, they don't inflict radiation hits, but I'm adding them as a substitute for the +4/+5 modifiers for turrets/barbettes. It's just my personal preference to have "clean" die rolls for base damage, with plusses coming from additional emitters and Effect.

 

[TheDark]

One reason I don't really like the High Guard limitation on particle weapons is the math involved. It's not difficult math, but it can be a little fiddly and isn't really a limitation on high-powered ships.

One potential alternative is to limit prototypes (weapons built one TL early) to a number of turrets or barbettes equal to the ship's power rating. Prototype turrets can only be single mounts (using a double turret for plasma/fusion or a triple turret for particle as usual). A Type A built at TL-13 could mount a single particle beam (either turret or barbette), since it has a Power Plant A that provides performance 1 on a 200-ton hull and the Particle Beams are normally available at TL-14 in this system.

That renders it a simple count rather than a percentage of turrets and ties the limitation to new weapons rather than specific weapons - the same would apply to adding Beam Lasers to a TL-7 vessel or Plasma Guns at TL-9.

 

[whartung]

They're Shotguns in Space...combat!

I wonder if TNE has penetration numbers for the Sandcaster in terrestrial combat.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I wonder if TNE has penetration numbers for the Sandcaster in terrestrial combat.

CT has:

CT Striker, B2, p42:
_ _ _ 6. Sandcasters: Sandcasters may be used as a sort of giant shotgun. They attack all targets within their danger space, which is 4 cm wide at effective range, 8 cm at long range, and 12 cm at extreme range. Effective range in a standard atmosphere is 50 cm with a penetration of 20 and an autofire DM of +8. Long range is 100 cm with a penetration of 10 and an autofire DM of +6. Extreme range is 200 cm with a penetration of 5 and an autofire DM of +4.

Penetration 20 is like a PGMP-12 or high-tech laser rifle.

 

[jec10]

And 50cm in Striker ground scale is 500 metres.

 

[Condottiere]

Canister range rather dependent on the caster.

A sandcutter canister may be targeted against an enemy ship within Adjacent or Close range and a successful attack halves the protection given by any sand canisters the enemy uses that round. It provides no protection laser, energy or particle weapons.

The range for the weapon is increased by one band, to a maximum of Very Long. For example, a Long Range beam laser will change from Medium to Long range. Long Range requires two Advantages and may only be applied once.

In other words, short range, which would be a tad over twelve hundred klix.

 

[TheDark]

If I see a boarding party approaching, I'm breaking out the Accurate High Yield sand.

 

[Rupert]

I wonder if TNE has penetration numbers for the Sandcaster in terrestrial combat.

TNE did not. In TNE sand is more like in CT with just the LBB 1-3 - an in-space defensive tool only. Striker turned sandcasters into an amazing weapon for a merchant or scout who's more likely to have to deal with angry locals on the ground than warships in space. MT retained this (Pen 20/2, damage 10, danger space 15 {x3 per range band past short}, max. range V.Long).