Striker Combat - Armor, Penetration and Damage

[kilemall]

Notification that this discussion was moved to its own topic.

Pfft I had it wrong, mistaking the melee table for the personnel wounds table. It's much much worse.

Which just gets one back to the conclusion, best not to get hit in the first place, and do unto others first before they do unto you.

I'm leaning towards Striker light wounds = 2D, serious wounds = 4D and dead =6D. In most cases if the 6D doesn't kill, the character will likely be 012xxxx or something like.

 

[sabredog]

I use Striker with the following scores for PEN-Armor+2D6: 3 or less =none.....4-7= 2D6.....8-11= 4D6....12-15= 6D6....16+ = 8D6.

Those pretty well tend to cover the average damage inflicted in even my CT LBB1 combat experience. And I modify the rolls further the usual Striker way: explosive rounds, lasers, energy weapons all increase the wound to the next step (4D6 becomes 6D6, etc.)...and getting hit while behind cover does the same (those headshots).

The problem, though, I've always had with Striker is that is has less random unpredictability in wounding. Get a 12+ (not too hard either) for damage done and you have a kill. This is even easier because of the way ranges are handled. By making the above changes I brought a little more random stress back into the game without overhauling anything major.

 

[kilemall]

I use Striker with the following scores for PEN-Armor+2D6: 3 or less =none.....4-7= 2D6.....8-11= 4D6....12-15= 6D6....16+ = 8D6.

Those pretty well tend to cover the average damage inflicted in even my CT LBB1 combat experience. And I modify the rolls further the usual Striker way: explosive rounds, lasers, energy weapons all increase the wound to the next step (4D6 becomes 6D6, etc.)...and getting hit while behind cover does the same (those headshots).

The problem, though, I've always had with Striker is that is has less random unpredictability in wounding. Get a 12+ (not too hard either) for damage done and you have a kill. This is even easier because of the way ranges are handled. By making the above changes I brought a little more random stress back into the game without overhauling anything major.

This is a very good and logical solution set, puts things back into their appropriate damage range, and I really considered using them.

However, I ended up deciding to stick with the default idea of 2D/4D/6D.

Reasoning is that

6D will kill about 50% of the time,
if one does survive a 6D hit they will likely be near critical and die without stabilization,
a plasma gun or artillery hit may hit the torso or head for lethal effect, or may just 'take off a leg' and not necessarily autokill,
explosions in real life are often chaotic events where some people survive that common sense says they shouldn't,
if they stay in range of the enemy the next shot will kill them anyway,
and ultimately this is a story, autokilling characters is not as good as rescue/capture/band of brothers type stuff.

 

[sabredog]

I agree, but I added the 8D6 for the higher PEN scores for things like FGMP's and all since that is more realistic and gives players pause when encountering them. Players know the 8 dice might kill them (with an average of 24 that's likely), but things might still work in their favor if the gods wish so they'll chance it knowing it isn't sure death.

But I want a fusion gun hit to mean something more than a hit from a grenade, even if it is just a graze. I have mitigating factors as well: I have extended the armor values quite a bit to take TL into account with Combat Armor vs. Battle Dress. BD is more effective at any TL than Combat, and the TL type has more points in protection. BD can be 'killed' even if the wearer isn't - when you take it off your personal wounds are reduced by 1/3 to reflect that. And personal medical computers automatically dispensing drugs and trauma care also helps keep the wearer of both Combat and (more extensively) Battle Dress. So IMTU, when you are slinging around FGMP's and such, you are also wearing the TL appropriate armor to help keep you alive against such weapons. Hopefully, anyway.

 

[kilemall]

But I want a fusion gun hit to mean something more than a hit from a grenade, even if it is just a graze. I have mitigating factors as well: I have extended the armor values quite a bit to take TL into account with Combat Armor vs. Battle Dress. BD is more effective at any TL than Combat, and the TL type has more points in protection. BD can be 'killed' even if the wearer isn't - when you take it off your personal wounds are reduced by 1/3 to reflect that. And personal medical computers automatically dispensing drugs and trauma care also helps keep the wearer of both Combat and (more extensively) Battle Dress. So IMTU, when you are slinging around FGMP's and such, you are also wearing the TL appropriate armor to help keep you alive against such weapons. Hopefully, anyway.

Default Striker BD is pretty low, as I pointed out in another thread Vietnam era recoilless rifles can do them in, much less the ubiquitous RAM GL.

So what value did you come up with?

I'm thinking the multiplier values like starship and vehicle armor with cloth as a base, so 35 on up for the higher tech versions.

 

[nobby-w]

IMHO PGMP's and FGMP's are a bit overpowered anyway - after all the Striker FGMP-14/15 has about 40% of the armour penetrating capability of an A-Gun. I have used a re-balance on occasions where they have about half the listed penetration (PGMP's get a little more than half for balance reasons).

This means that they will penetrate TL14 battle dress at effective range but the armour provides a degree of protection at long, particularly against PGMP's.

As to the balance of TL14 combat armour, I think it may be OK for a high-tech striker game (does anybody actually do TL14/15 mercenary campaigns anyway?) but body armour that's immune to nearly all small arms has some balance issues.

I don't see that a PGMP should be more powerful than a grenade launcher, especially as you get functionally unlimited ammunition on TL13+ models. Certainly a larger artillery-sized weapon should be powerful, but small arms don't have to.

 

[sabredog]

Default Striker BD is pretty low, as I pointed out in another thread Vietnam era recoilless rifles can do them in, much less the ubiquitous RAM GL.

So what value did you come up with?

I'm thinking the multiplier values like starship and vehicle armor with cloth as a base, so 35 on up for the higher tech versions.

Type TL Armor Value Price
Combat Armor 11 10 20,000
Combat Armor 12 12 30,000
Combat Armor 13 13 40,000
Battle Dress 13 15 200,000
Combat Armor 14 17 60,000
Battle Dress 14 20 400,000
Combat Armor 15 18 80,000
Battle Dress 15 22 500,000
Assault Drop Suit 15 25 850,000

 

[kilemall]

IMHO PGMP's and FGMP's are a bit overpowered anyway - after all the Striker FGMP-14/15 has about 40% of the armour penetrating capability of an A-Gun. I have used a re-balance on occasions where they have about half the listed penetration (PGMP's get a little more than half for balance reasons).

This means that they will penetrate TL14 battle dress at effective range but the armour provides a degree of protection at long, particularly against PGMP's.

As to the balance of TL14 combat armour, I think it may be OK for a high-tech striker game (does anybody actually do TL14/15 mercenary campaigns anyway?) but body armour that's immune to nearly all small arms has some balance issues.

I don't see that a PGMP should be more powerful than a grenade launcher, especially as you get functionally unlimited ammunition on TL13+ models. Certainly a larger artillery-sized weapon should be powerful, but small arms don't have to.

Actually, my issue is that for pennies on the credit you can outfit a TL8-10 force with RAM GLs everywhere and defeat a TL15 BD force. Other then limited ammo, RAM GLs beat PG/FGMPs for value and range.

In Striker BD already beat most slug throwers except for the AT LAG rifle, which also eliminates artillery flechette/fragment damage and that's something.

 

[mike wightman]

In T4s Emperor's Arsenal BD usually has a built in pulse laser based point defence for taking out RAM grenades and the like.

Assuming such a thing is not possible using Striker then your idea for a heavy duty BD that supports the rest of the squad can easily provide PD against RAM grenades etc for the fire team it is assigned to.

 

[sabredog]

You can design very portable close defense lasers in Striker that will, for very little money virtually eliminate the use of projectiles weapons. A 1 lens 1MW pulse laser will knock down so many incoming rounds 16D6 worth of incoming rounds.

I mount one of these on a small 2-man grav car and it provides plenty of protection. They are also on the grav APC's and Grav Tanks so there is an awful lot of overlapping protection for the troops and armor. If you add Point Defense Fire Control and Direct Fire Control to a tank's rapid pulse high energy weapon then you get a twofer for little cost. You can knock the incoming projectiles out and then switch to DFC and destroy the launch team.

With high flying drones you can suppress mortars and other indirect artillery the same way - keep the drones at NOE and then popup when the incoming rounds are detected with counter-battery radar/ladar/whatever and knocked down by the drone's lasers. There are plenty of combinations to match the weapon technologies and effectively eliminate the threat of projectile weapons like RAM grenades and missiles.

 

[kilemall]

In T4s Emperor's Arsenal BD usually has a built in pulse laser based point defence for taking out RAM grenades and the like.

Assuming such a thing is not possible using Striker then your idea for a heavy duty BD that supports the rest of the squad can easily provide PD against RAM grenades etc for the fire team it is assigned to.

Yep, big part of why I have them in, although I was also thinking of tac missiles or arty rounds.

I don't see why the TL13 xray laser pistol shouldn't be a perfect fit for that role, and certainly the BD feeding their main weapon should have a few kilowatts for a laser feed.

 

[kilemall]

You can design very portable close defense lasers in Striker that will, for very little money virtually eliminate the use of projectiles weapons. A 1 lens 1MW pulse laser will knock down so many incoming rounds 16D6 worth of incoming rounds.

I mount one of these on a small 2-man grav car and it provides plenty of protection. They are also on the grav APC's and Grav Tanks so there is an awful lot of overlapping protection for the troops and armor. If you add Point Defense Fire Control and Direct Fire Control to a tank's rapid pulse high energy weapon then you get a twofer for little cost. You can knock the incoming projectiles out and then switch to DFC and destroy the launch team.

With high flying drones you can suppress mortars and other indirect artillery the same way - keep the drones at NOE and then popup when the incoming rounds are detected with counter-battery radar/ladar/whatever and knocked down by the drone's lasers. There are plenty of combinations to match the weapon technologies and effectively eliminate the threat of projectile weapons like RAM grenades and missiles.

Oh sure, supporting combined arms, no problem. Besides, the RAM GL operators will be shooting at the tanks anyway prior to turning attention to the inf.

I'm thinking of those situations where it's light inf on light inf, say expeditionary operations on the Traveller equivalent of Afghanistan missions.

 

[nobby-w]

Actually, my issue is that for pennies on the credit you can outfit a TL8-10 force with RAM GLs everywhere and defeat a TL15 BD force. Other then limited ammo, RAM GLs beat PG/FGMPs for value and range.

In Striker BD already beat most slug throwers except for the AT LAG rifle, which also eliminates artillery flechette/fragment damage and that's something.

I see battle dress as something you deploy with an escort of unpowered troops - a section will have 2-4 fire teams with 1-2 BD equipped troops per team with one or two unpowered escorts each to keep the enemy off their back. Battle dress is a gun platform for assault units.

If you view it as something more like a small mech than personal body armour then you could imagine it being armoured to keep out small arms fire, which it does for all intents and purposes. However, you may wish to nerf combat armour back to the 8-10 range.

Bearing in mind that a HEAP RAM grenade is good for a penetration of 20-25cm of RHA (not unreasonable W.R.T. the capabilities of contemporary weapons) so up-armouring battle dress to be proof against this sort of kit is asking for a lot of handwavium.

I would suggest that you apply a penalty of (say) -2 against targets smaller than a vehicle (for direct hits) to balance out RAM grenades against BD.

Note that this does mean that Battle Dress is not all-powerful and needs to be defended, just like any other armoured vehicle. Even with the heavy armour, the concussion from a decent-sized HE round would still be a serious threat.

 

[atpollard]

Thread Split Off

Just a quick note that this was a discussion too interesting to leave buried in another topic, so I gave it it's own home.

 

[sabredog]

Oh sure, supporting combined arms, no problem. Besides, the RAM GL operators will be shooting at the tanks anyway prior to turning attention to the inf.

I'm thinking of those situations where it's light inf on light inf, say expeditionary operations on the Traveller equivalent of Afghanistan missions.

In that case you use this:

Personal Defensive Intercept System TL-12+

Hydra™ PDIS is a personal point defense weapon system that is designed to intercept incoming solid projectiles and either destroy or deflect them before they impact the target. The system consists of one, or several, laser “studs” that fire on the incoming projectile when the scanning unit detects it. A slower moving relatively light projectile is more likely to be successfully destroyed than a faster moving solid projectile.

Consequently, rockets, tac missiles, RAM grenades, and high to low velocity projectiles are more often successfully intercepted than hyper-velocity armor piercing rounds (such as those fired by railguns/mass drivers). Likewise, high rates of fire of any kind of projectiles may overwhelm a PDIS and some projectiles may get through.

The system is most commonly mounted on vehicles (A/IFV’s to intercept ATGM’s) and on, at higher tech levels it is found on military grade battledress and assault armors. Also, suitcase versions can be used to monitor for, and triangulate incoming fire from snipers. Several laser studs are arranged to cover a given area, and when incoming fire is detected by them the information is datalinked to a pocket computer programmed to calculate the firing position of the sniper. Counter fire can then be made by a live sniper (who can be positioned well away from the detection gear, or the system can be remote (or hardwired) to an automated counterfire weapon to automatically fire on the enemy using the data provided.

At TL-12 the system is developed for use on vehicles, it is cumbersome and may combine the laser studs with a rapid fire slugthrower to provide enough coverage for shifting targets. The DM for incoming projectiles to hit is -2DM and only for missiles, RAM grenades, ATGM’s and similar low velocity, large, high signature weapons.

The portable “suitcase” model is available for counter-sniper detection and response. This version includes 4 laser stud-scanners on non-metallic tripods, remote datalink (can be plugged into any pocket computer with the appropriate software), and connections for a counter-sniper remote weapon are optional.

At TL-13 the system is smaller, more accurate and capable of intercepting smaller, faster targets including cannon fired rounds.

At TL-14+ the system is more accurate still and a -4DM is applied to incoming projectile weapons attempting to hit the wearer. The DM is -2 for hyper-velocity solid (KEAP or KEAPER) AP rounds (VRF Gauss Gun and railguns/mass drivers count as these), which means the round may only be deflected instead of destroyed. HE or HEAP hyper-velocity rounds are treated as ordinary rounds and get the -4DM since they are more “fragile” and may explode when hit by the laser.



Some specifics on the Hydra PDIS:

The system is active and doesn't require control by the wearer. It has a minimum effective range of 200m...anything inside that to 100m has half the DM reduced by half.

The system can be overwhelmed of course, so only one fully automatic weapon at a time can be engaged by it, but it can intercept up to 4 non-automatic weapons (RAM grenades, tac missiles) per combat round. Beyond that the wearer relies on cover and the suit armor.

It can also be used in a sort of reverse group fire rule by datalinking the Hydra systems in a squad's suits together to cover each other so long as they are all close together. So if one guy is shot at by 2 automatic weapons then his suit intercepts one and his team mate's suit can intercept the other. So tactical formations are important when moving through hostile ground for this reason too.

So it's hardly a shield of invulnerability but it helps with fighting on lower tech worlds with lots of slugthrowers and ATGM's instead of high energy weapons and nukes.




*Prices and availability are subject to local law levels and whatever the market can bear.

 

[sabredog]

Thread Split Off

Just a quick note that this was a discussion too interesting to leave buried in another topic, so I gave it it's own home.

Most excellent!

 

[sabredog]

As a caveat to this subject: at the risk of violating some rule on the boards I'll state this quick word and drop the specific subject, but it is pertinent to the topic. I promise.

With regards to Afghanistan, the variables as to the whys and hows of the indigenous forces being able to stand up to and defeat technologically superior forces invading the country are many, and the most important ones have nothing to do with superior armor or weapons, but with supply lines, living off the land, fighting on your home turf, poor rules of engagement, and lack of political will to use the full capabilities of those technologies available. Take those mitigating and supremely important limitations away and yeah, now you have the locals at lower TL's losing to the higher TL.

Back to Striker and the "everything works as advertised every time wargame situation". In Striker, you have to factor in morale, communications, tactics, leadership and troop quality (training), and establish rules of engagement through pre-set orders for units. Supply and communications are inseparable from the combat rules.

But, if you remove all that, and weight the scenario against the superior forces, then the low tech units will do a lot of damage. Make the scenario and all-things-equal one and the higher tech forces will win very quickly.

So when we discuss the relative merits of combined arms vs. infantry only, why would it be like that? RAM Grenades killing BD - yes, why not? But with the superior technology in suits for vision, targeting, and movement, how would a guy with essentially an RPG get close enough to use it? And if they have the weapons, why wouldn't the infantry use them? What ROE restricts that?

When I design weapons and armor I take all that into account, which is why, yes, my BD designs are not just for increased strength to carry armor but to also carry weapons designed for use by the BD wearer. BD as force multiplier, not just protection. SO I consider the threats - realistically. And realistically, if yo add so much protection the suit is now effectively a drone AFV why not just make the drone then?

Realistically, though, the stuff won't keep out things like RAM Grenades and guns firing small blobs of fusing plasma reactions. Maybe it won't always kill the wearer, but there is always an easier way to make weapons that can penetrate superior armor than the other way around - so a version of the old tank calculus of mobility vs. protection vs. offensive capability has to be modeled to make it work realistically. And within the limitations of supply, comms, command, ROE, training, and those other 'boring' but crucial details.

 

[jec10]

The problem is that in any realistic-ish design system you simply can't make a Traveller-style Battle Dress that carries enough armour to defeat a RAM grenade or an RPG.

Now CT and CT/Striker don't have a design sequence for BD. Nor does MegaTrav. The power armour is pre-cooked and presumably done via "it looks about right".

TNE/FFS has a system to design power armour and the results are pretty clear. You just need too much armour to protect a man in a suit from a 4cm HEAP round and still expect to wander about.

Hence T4 with its Battle Pods. If you use grav you don't have to worry about weight and ground pressure and can layer on the armour. Of course, you're not a man in a suit anymore and need a bigger construct along with T4's magic small cold fusion power plants.

 

[aramis]

The problem is that in any realistic-ish design system you simply can't make a Traveller-style Battle Dress that carries enough armour to defeat a RAM grenade or an RPG.

Now CT and CT/Striker don't have a design sequence for BD. Nor does MegaTrav. The power armour is pre-cooked and presumably done via "it looks about right".

TNE/FFS has a system to design power armour and the results are pretty clear. You just need too much armour to protect a man in a suit from a 4cm HEAP round and still expect to wander about.

Hence T4 with its Battle Pods. If you use grav you don't have to worry about weight and ground pressure and can layer on the armour. Of course, you're not a man in a suit anymore and need a bigger construct along with T4's magic small cold fusion power plants.

DGP leaked one for MT.

 

[whartung]

All these attribute of the RAM grenade may be true, but they're also a bit awkward to use and deploy. While capable against BD, in that case it's a point weapon, vs an area weapon (as shrapnel would have no effect against BD).

And now you're targeting a man sized target, something that dodges and serpentines.

Vehicles tend to be slow and plodding, making them fine RAM targets. Wall tend to not move at all, make them ever better targets. Men are more crafty and nimble, making them difficult targets. Plus you have the whole issue of "hard targets" vs "soft targets".

I don't quite think it'll be the Zulu Wars, but I think there's similarities.

So, while a RAM grenade may well be effective, operationally, I think their effectiveness is over stated.