Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > General Traveller Discussions > Imperial Research Station

Imperial Research Station A forum for discussing technology and related topics for use in the Traveller Universe

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old March 24th, 2021, 05:57 AM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 711
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Another more simpler way of looking at it is instead of viewing gravity as a force, view it as a curvature of space, a negative curvature of space is attractive, it attracts all objects and bends light toward the source of the space curvature, a positive curvature of space is repulsive and it repels all objects and bends light away from the source of the positive curvature.

The more negative mass-energy you drop into a positive gravity field, the more that field flattens, if you add enough negative matter it will reverse the curvature of that gravity field and it will instead become repulsive and all the matter will fly out of it. Now gravity is the weakest of the four fundamental forces but also the longest range. If we can clump that negative matter together using short range nuclear forces to bind it, we can have a negative mass object producting a repulsive gravity field, if we make it too massive it will explode under it's own gravity, so we don't go above that limit. What can we do with it?

One possibility is we can make a push-pull drive. The negative matter nugget is extremely dense and it is contained within a Starship of equal mass to it. The Starship has zero net mass, it will sit on a planet's surface because gravity attracts all things. If you want to levitate you can push down on the negative mass nugget with an electric or magnetic field, and the moment you do that the Starship will rise up off the surface of the planet and float, just like a gravity vehicle would, you are accelerating upward at the same rate gravity is pulling you downward, if you want to ascend, you push down harder on the nugget and the ship accelerates upward at a rate faster than gravity is pulling it downward. That ship can keep on accelerating, energy is expended on maintaining the nugget, as you need to overcome entropy to allow it to continue to exist, this requires a fusion reactor, and you can accelerate the Starship as long as it has power, the typical duration is 4 weeks. The power input is the same as listed in the Traveller books.

As the ship accelerates to higher velocities, its net kinetic energy remains the same, as the positive kinetic energy increases so does the negative kinetic energy of the nugget the Starship is pushing on. That is how the maneuver drive could work.

As for artificial gravity, you need high densities of positive matter below your feet and high densities of negative matter above your head, the net mass is zero. Gravity plates under your feet have dense degenerate matter, and antigravity plates above your head have them same in negative matter. So long as you are inbetween those two plates you experience gravity on board the ship. You can adjust this gravity to your liking, this allows you to sustain accelerations higher than 1g without feeling that acceleration. You just adjust your gravity plating to compensate.

Last edited by Werner; March 24th, 2021 at 06:37 AM..
  #12  
Old March 24th, 2021, 09:55 AM
whulorigan's Avatar
whulorigan whulorigan is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,809
Gallery : 0
Visit whulorigan's Blog
whulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Also negative mass objects would tend not to form, if they occurred in nature. In order to make an object, you need to overcome their gravitational repulsion so that shorter range forces such as electric charge can hold them together. ...
The electromagnetic force and the gravitational force are both infinite range forces, and in fact are mathematically identical in the classical approximation. So if you had (for example) a cloud of nega-protons (or some equivalent positive electric-charge particles), their like electric charges would repel each other against a negative-inertia, causing them to be effectively attracted to one another. Since electromagnetism is orders of magnitude stronger than gravity, negative mass should theoretically be able to clump thru electromagnetic forces.

The color-charge of the Strong Nuclear Force is very short-range, however, despite being the strongest of all of the 4 forces.
__________________
.



WHULorigan (Wayne)

Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
Knight of the Iridium Throne (KIT)CORE 2419 Sevan A544576-A
Richard Elruinn Rhovanion (TAS Member #0008)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F

Other Awards
:
Duke of the Third ImperiumREAV 3209 Kylian BA57742-A
Duke of KhouthCORR 0104 Khouth A8C3999-D
Viscount of AlellSPIN 1706 Alell B56789CA
Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry
  #13  
Old March 24th, 2021, 11:37 AM
Adam Dray's Avatar
Adam Dray Adam Dray is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 840
Gallery : 0
Visit Adam Dray's Blog
Adam Dray Citizen+Adam Dray Citizen+Adam Dray Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
If you drop negative matter into a black hole, it shrinks, that is what Hawking radiation is, negative matter falling into a black hole leaving its positive matter twin particles to come out as radiation.
Hawking radiation is the stripping of half of a virtual particle. Is there something equating virtual particles with negative matter? I don't think so. The virtual particle is positive matter, just "virtual" on account of the Uncertainty Principle eschewing the zero-point, right?
__________________
Grand Duke Rhylanor, SPIN 2717 Rhylanor/Rhylanor A434934-F
Viscount Khikaba/Lishun 0829 C524869-9
Count Junidy, SPIN 3202 Junidy/Aramis B434ABD-B
Marquis Tuwayk/Deneb 0339
Marquis Smoug/Lunion 1729
Marquis Rech/Lanth 2112
Baron/ess Rech/Lanth 2112
Knight of Deneb Junidy/Aramis 3202
  #14  
Old March 24th, 2021, 12:13 PM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 711
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Dray View Post
Hawking radiation is the stripping of half of a virtual particle. Is there something equating virtual particles with negative matter? I don't think so. The virtual particle is positive matter, just "virtual" on account of the Uncertainty Principle eschewing the zero-point, right?
How do black holes lose mass then if they aren't swallowing negative matter and nothing is escaping their event horizons? Can you answer that. Event horizons are one way only, swallowing negative matter or energy is the only way they can lose mass. Unless you think Stephen Hawking was wrong of course, do you?
  #15  
Old March 24th, 2021, 01:29 PM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,976
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Black holes evaporate by emitting photons and other particles, it just takes a really long time for a black hole to evaporate via Hawking radiation.

Stellar mass and larger black holes can not emit Hawking radiation until the temperature of the surrounding universe drops to below the nanoKelvin range - which is a long long time in the future.

A microblack hole can theoretically evaporate in a few nanoseconds but we still await experimental or observational confirmation of this.

You do not need negative mass to explain how black holes evaporate via Hawking radiation.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.
  #16  
Old March 24th, 2021, 01:58 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,648
Gallery : 56
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Dray View Post
Hawking radiation is the stripping of half of a virtual particle. Is there something equating virtual particles with negative matter? I don't think so. The virtual particle is positive matter, just "virtual" on account of the Uncertainty Principle eschewing the zero-point, right?
The Virtual Particle pairs are one matter one antimatter, and normally pop into existence, then attract and self-annihilate; this is part of the so-called "Zero Point Energy"...

Hawking radiation is half the pair being pulled in, at least as Hawking himself explained it in a science show. Which is why the finding of hawking radiation is proof of quantum vacuum state including the reality of VPPs...

Now, recent work shows that antimatter does, indeed, have positive mass, but only reversed charge. So it's not useful for finding strange matter with negative mass.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu dt f+ fs++ ge ih- inf j jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
  #17  
Old March 24th, 2021, 02:02 PM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 711
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Black holes evaporate by emitting photons and other particles, it just takes a really long time for a black hole to evaporate via Hawking radiation.

Stellar mass and larger black holes can not emit Hawking radiation until the temperature of the surrounding universe drops to below the nanoKelvin range - which is a long long time in the future.

A microblack hole can theoretically evaporate in a few nanoseconds but we still await experimental or observational confirmation of this.

You do not need negative mass to explain how black holes evaporate via Hawking radiation.
Then you need tachyons, since the escape velocity at the event horizon is the speed of light, you need something that exceeds that velocity to escape a black hole, or else you need dark energy.
What is dark energy? One form of it is photons that carry negative amounts of energy, they travel at the speed of light just like regular photons do, and be emitting dark energy, you actually gain energy, and whatever absorbs these dark photons loses energy, and in fact a dark photon is just a reverse time regular photon traveling backwards in time.
  #18  
Old March 24th, 2021, 02:07 PM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 711
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
The Virtual Particle pairs are one matter one antimatter, and normally pop into existence, then attract and self-annihilate; this is part of the so-called "Zero Point Energy"...

Hawking radiation is half the pair being pulled in, at least as Hawking himself explained it in a science show. Which is why the finding of hawking radiation is proof of quantum vacuum state including the reality of VPPs...

Now, recent work shows that antimatter does, indeed, have positive mass, but only reversed charge. So it's not useful for finding strange matter with negative mass.
To be fair, no one has proven that hawking radiation exists, we haven't had very many black holes to experiment with after all, it's just a theory.

Antimatter is created when a high energy photon hits a virtual particle pair giving both particles positive mass, one is positively charged, the other negatively charged.
  #19  
Old March 24th, 2021, 02:09 PM
whulorigan's Avatar
whulorigan whulorigan is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,809
Gallery : 0
Visit whulorigan's Blog
whulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Black holes evaporate by emitting photons and other particles, it just takes a really long time for a black hole to evaporate via Hawking radiation.

Stellar mass and larger black holes can not emit Hawking radiation until the temperature of the surrounding universe drops to below the nanoKelvin range - which is a long long time in the future.

A microblack hole can theoretically evaporate in a few nanoseconds but we still await experimental or observational confirmation of this.

You do not need negative mass to explain how black holes evaporate via Hawking radiation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
The Virtual Particle pairs are one matter one antimatter, and normally pop into existence, then attract and self-annihilate; this is part of the so-called "Zero Point Energy"...

Hawking radiation is half the pair being pulled in, at least as Hawking himself explained it in a science show. Which is why the finding of hawking radiation is proof of quantum vacuum state including the reality of VPPs...

Now, recent work shows that antimatter does, indeed, have positive mass, but only reversed charge. So it's not useful for finding strange matter with negative mass.
Then you need tachyons, since the escape velocity at the event horizon is the speed of light, you need something that exceeds that velocity to escape a black hole, or else you need dark energy.
For the case in question, the virtual particle-pair creation occurs just above the event horizon, where one of the pair falls past the horizon, and the other escapes.
__________________
.



WHULorigan (Wayne)

Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
Knight of the Iridium Throne (KIT)CORE 2419 Sevan A544576-A
Richard Elruinn Rhovanion (TAS Member #0008)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F

Other Awards
:
Duke of the Third ImperiumREAV 3209 Kylian BA57742-A
Duke of KhouthCORR 0104 Khouth A8C3999-D
Viscount of AlellSPIN 1706 Alell B56789CA
Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry
  #20  
Old March 24th, 2021, 02:16 PM
whulorigan's Avatar
whulorigan whulorigan is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,809
Gallery : 0
Visit whulorigan's Blog
whulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Now, recent work shows that antimatter does, indeed, have positive mass, but only reversed charge. So it's not useful for finding strange matter with negative mass.

Actually, matter vs. antimatter shows all properties (I believe) reversed, but both having positive mass. This is largely because of quantities that are conserved in particle physics (charge, spin, lepton number, color-charge on quarks, etc.); they must sum to zero.
__________________
.



WHULorigan (Wayne)

Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
Knight of the Iridium Throne (KIT)CORE 2419 Sevan A544576-A
Richard Elruinn Rhovanion (TAS Member #0008)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F

Other Awards
:
Duke of the Third ImperiumREAV 3209 Kylian BA57742-A
Duke of KhouthCORR 0104 Khouth A8C3999-D
Viscount of AlellSPIN 1706 Alell B56789CA
Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Exotic Cuisine Timerover51 The Lone Star 67 February 9th, 2017 11:45 AM
Exotic Dinner Timerover51 The Lone Star 9 March 21st, 2016 12:20 AM
Anti-matter Jump Drives? daltoncalford Traveller 5 3 January 14th, 2014 11:02 AM
Exotic Locales kafka47 Imperial Interstellar Scout Service 7 December 15th, 2006 07:57 PM
an exotic atm in the HZ hydrozoa Imperial Interstellar Scout Service 0 March 29th, 2006 09:42 AM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.