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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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Old May 9th, 2016, 12:15 PM
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Default Darrian TL16 fleet

That's a splinter from another thread, as I believe it deserves a thread on its own.

Selected quotes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by robject View Post
The Darrian Confederation

Setting aside the Special Arm, what makes Darrian navy ships special? I understand that they're TL15, which is unusual for such a small empire. But are there aspects that differentiate them from the Imperium?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maksimsmelchak View Post
The Darrians have a collection of high technology TL-16 precursor ships from the glory days. That's what's special. Stuff better than anyone else's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
They're TL 16. What makes them special is their reputation and little more. They're the Darrians' version of Napoleon's Old Guard; i.e. when they're committed to battle they always win, except when they don't and the battle is usually won before they show up anyways.

Thanks to MT we know what TL 16 means for warships and there is nothing revolutionary. Power plants are a little better, computers a little better, weapons, screens, electronics, what not all a little better. No new "death ray", no weapon or other system that suddenly makes an incredible advance.

I always figured that the TL 16 squadron has chiefly been used as sensors/ELINT asset. They can detect, pinpoint, target, spoof, eavesdrop, etc. on the Swordies with near impunity and pass on what they've learned to their lower tech bretheren who do the heavy lifting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
Thanks to MT we know what advances TL 16 holds for starship systems ranging from weapons to power plants to drives and all the rest. For most systems, there simply aren't any marked improvements. A little better here and there, but nothing like the huge increase in fusion plant efficiency between TL 11 and 12 for example.

Armor doesn't change between TL 15 and 16. Jump drives, m-drives, and their fuel requirements all don't change. Weapons see various upticks in their factors, in some cases substantial, but none are revolutionary. Tractor bays finally show up, bay weapons can finally break the factor-9 barrier, spinals get a small bump and screens too, but again there's nothing spectacular.

The real TL 16 benefits are seen in electronics, sensors, computers, and communicators.

So, those vaunted TL 16 Darrian squadrons aren't making their presence in battle felt by the strength of their arms as much as they are making their presence in battle felt by their eyes, ears, and brains. They're acquiring weapon target locks faster, better, and well before their opponents and then passing those firing solutions off to their lower TL consorts. They're winning the ECM/ECCM battle and passing along the benefits which accrue from that victory to their lower TL consorts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Another factor to conseder about the Darrian TL16 squadrons is that they are told to be pre-Maghiz relics.

If we see Darrian pre-Maghiz position, it's unlikely they had a powerful fleet, as they had no hostile neighbours (in fact, they didn't have any high tech neighbours), and Darrians were not an agrtesive/warlike race.

Of course, the (probably, due to history) more militaristic Solomani that sparked their tech developement would have insisted in building some fleet, just in case, but I guess most of its ships were not precisely superdreadnoughts, but more on the cruiser/destroyer range, as they didn't need larger ships when they were built.

And, before anyone asks, all of this is purely speculative, with no (at least known to me) published material to support it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
And that's another reason why those relic TL 16 squadrons aren't "sooper dooper" never fail warships: They most likely weren't warships in the first place.

A merchant group unlike the later military Gram Fleet, the Itzvin(?) Fleet is said to have "scouted the neighborhood" before selecting Darrian for contact and uplift. They passed across the jump5 Rift Span route and through the Trojan Reach on their way to the Marches. They have a general idea of just who and what is around the region, groups like what's left of the Sindals, 1st/2nd Imperium refugees are drifting spinward, refugees are moving away from the Zhodani, Zho-influenced planets are nosing about, and all the other odds and sods passing through the region.

They'll know their ships need to be armed but they'll also know there is no pressing need for a battle fleet. So, those TL 16 relics found in the Darrian outer system weren't a mothballed CruRon.
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Last edited by McPerth; June 29th, 2016 at 02:32 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old May 9th, 2016, 12:28 PM
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In MT, pre-Rebellion, the Darrian peace with 3I leads to TL16 worlds popping up throughout the Imperium. Yet, they don't seem to be masters of their own fate. A peaceful people sure but perhaps they're resource poor.

They reached TL17. There fleet is relic TL16 and they've crawled back up the TL chain. Gram does not overrun them, but they probably have a reasonable defense. The Zho have a truce with 3I and aren't going to invade. If there is no threat why partner with the Imperium?

We've seen a couple TL16 patrol cruisers. They help the Regency build TL16.

The Darrian home fleet must have a few TL 16 marvels beyond the Star Trigger.
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Old May 9th, 2016, 12:34 PM
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If Darrians are Space Elves, then the Sword Worlders would be the Orks, and generally, you structure your armed forces against the biggest threat you face.

If that threat is four tech levels below you, you fry his electronics.
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Old May 9th, 2016, 12:46 PM
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Default First question: what are those ships?

Known Facts:

CT:AM8 Darrian, Page 17:
Quote:
These TL16 Warships were recovered from a stockpile of ships in the outer Darrian system in 390
CT:AM8 Darrian, Page 24:
Quote:
At least four are reported to be merchan ships to which TL 14 weaponry has been added
CT:AM8 Darrian, Page 12 (some parts are skipped):
Quote:
The electoromagnetic pulse from Tanis kept travelling at the speed of light, hitting each Darrian colony worlds in turn. As it arrived in each system (which sheduled a Pulse Day for equipment to be powered down)...
CT:AM8 Darrian, Page 12:
Quote:
It was just chance that Darrian sureveys did not reach far enough to touch the Zhodani border, and no Zhodani expeditions reached Darrian space between -1521 and -920
Speculative facts:

1) When the Maghiz stuck, Darrian colonies began to prepare to endure it. It's expected that on the time they expected them, aside from shuting down electronic equipment to avoid it being damaged, most mobile assets (incluiding starships) avoided the specific system, retourning there afterware for disaster relief duties.

If so, most jump capable ships not caught by the initial flare would have been preserved from the Maghiz efects by avoiding the systems when they were affected by it. Only lack of maintenance and wear and tear from use attrited them afterwards.

2) Darrian, being a non aggresive race with no known interstellar neighbours , were unlikely to have built capital warships, probably only having them in the destroyer/cruiser size range.

My conclusion (one of many posibles, not supported by published materials to my knowledge):

Those ships are likely to be in fact not true ships, but boats. Probably deep reserve SDB squadrons (kept powered down hidden in outer system (Oort cloud, Trojan asteroids, etc) in wait for them to be needed, as is told to be usual strategy for them in most fleets).

If so, the reported previous merchant ships refitted could well not be really combat ships, but used as tenders for the rest of the fleet, that would be used as BRs.
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Last edited by McPerth; September 17th, 2018 at 01:12 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old May 9th, 2016, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
If Darrians are Space Elves, then the Sword Worlders would be the Orks, and generally, you structure your armed forces against the biggest threat you face.
While I agree the Darrians being (keeping all distances) Space Elves, I annot agree with Sword Worlders being the Orks.

They are humans, not another race natuarly agresive that can be killed without remorse to accrue XP. IMHO they should be seen as dangerous barbarians, not as Orks.

If the OTU would need such Ork equivalent, they'd kicked the Kafers in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
If that threat is four tech levels below you, you fry his electronics.
Agreed here. A single TL16 ship could make short of a TL11-12 fleet, just for better computer/armor/screens. Not so sure about the TL14 Zhodani...
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Last edited by McPerth; June 29th, 2016 at 02:33 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old May 9th, 2016, 01:07 PM
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Default Second question: what capabilities do those ships have?

So, what makes those ships so valuable when compared with TL15 ships?

As stated in the other thread, and if we take MT as a basis (as is the only versión I know that allows for TL16+ ships to be built), their advantages are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
  1. Possibility to armor the ship thougher (enough for another +1 to damage rolls)
  2. Slightly smaller PP (about 17% output increase, half weight)
  3. Better avionics (irrelevant for warships)
  4. Smaller and chaper electronics, but not enough to make a difference (except the densiometers, that, being quite more powerful, may detect things undetectable at lower TLs (as Deep meson guns deeper tthan 1 km).
  5. Some more powerful spinals (U rated, both MG and PA)
  6. Over 9 rated bays. Those B rated MG bays may be quite nasty, allowing them to fire more than a unmodified Meson shoot (but they take quite a lot of power). As for missiles, I'm not sure if they need also TL16 missiles themselves, and, if so, not sure if they are available.
  7. +1 to laser, PA, plasma and sand (unless you again need TL16 ammo, as missiles above) turret batteries (at best, relevant for fighters).
  8. Better screens (A rated dampers and Mesons screens, BG up to 7 rated)
  9. Better computers (rated 10)

Their effects in combat:
  • Nuclear missiles are quite less powerful against them due to points 1, 8 and 9
  • Better and lighter PP could allow better agility (though I guess it's not really enough, as in MT agility is quite rare)
  • U spinals would inflict criticals on 300 kdton ships (and one more in smaller ones)
  • As said, bays rated over 9 will not be modified in damage tables, but see that neither they recibe multiple rolls, as this is listed specificially for Spinals (page 93), not for any A+ weapon
  • Better screens and computers make the ship less vulnerable, as not only is the target number higher, but the modifiers worse for the attacker.
See that most of it (10 rated computers, B rated meson bays, armor 16) is readily exportable to CT:HG, being not needing nearly any change, while others (PP, U rated spinals, higher rated screens, etc) would require some small changes, as defining thir power needs (easily done, at a rate of 250MW/EP), size (also easy, PPs are reduced in size by 17%, others are directly transfered at 13.5 kl/ton) and wight being ignored.
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Old May 9th, 2016, 01:41 PM
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You don't have TNE FF&S do you? Those rule allow TL16+ ships to be built.

Does the Barekdoldin mean anything to you?

The Regency built them based on Darrian relic tech. They are in TNE.
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Old May 9th, 2016, 01:46 PM
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Jump capable ships could easily avoid the emp from the star trigger by over jumping it back to a system that has already been affected. They would have to receive some sort of warning it is on the way though.
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Old May 9th, 2016, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
You don't have TNE FF&S do you? Those rule allow TL16+ ships to be built.

Does the Barekdoldin mean anything to you?

The Regency built them based on Darrian relic tech. They are in TNE.
Exactly, my point. Darrians we're sharing military tech. Not merchant ships. But a reserve squadron may have based out of an asteroid and survived the event.
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Old May 9th, 2016, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
You don't have TNE FF&S do you? Those rule allow TL16+ ships to be built.

Does the Barekdoldin mean anything to you?

The Regency built them based on Darrian relic tech. They are in TNE.
No, to both questions. I was on the torches and pichforks team when TNE appeared (though I own the core book, but I'd spare few things from it).

In any case, I guess even those SDB would allow them to be used for this ressearch on TL16, as jump does not change (at least in MT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Jump capable ships could easily avoid the emp from the star trigger by over jumping it back to a system that has already been affected. They would have to receive some sort of warning it is on the way though.
That's my point, and why I guess most of those stored pre-Maghiz ships could be non jump capable.

As said in the Known Facts above, they did receive the warning, as the colonies did. Probably ships went to Darrian after the Maghiz and knew about it, and those same ships warned everyone else.
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